Heroes of Comedy Game Over - He who laughs last!

[Yates]

Talk is great. But as you try to lead conversations down the path of inconsequentialness, it looks less like scumhunting and more like...scum.

I like this post.

[pappums rat]

Damn there was another page hold on.

[PeregrineV]

@MoI- It was Friday afternoon. According to MoI timetable, had I hammered as I indicated, you would not have been able to give reads, unless Jason took the weekend off.

Ah, but there would have been a flip. Your own. Day 2 analysis of a town flip is very standard. You're unwillingness to do so on your own wagon BEFORE you hypothetically "flip town" earns you major scumpoints. And real ones, not the vibe-y kind.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Yates you have some open items at Post 255. Please get to them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI- It was Friday afternoon. According to MoI timetable, had I hammered as I indicated, you would not have been able to give reads, unless Jason took the weekend off.

Ah, but there would have been a flip. Your own. Day 2 analysis of a town flip is very standard. You're unwillingness to do so on your own wagon BEFORE you hypothetically "flip town" earns you major scumpoints. And real ones, not the vibe-y kind.

You are making assumptions / drawing conclusions about this that are not true. Your lack of correct conclusions from that are not my problem.

Explain why I earn "major scum-points" for not doing entertaining your hypothetical crap when you wouldn't even commit to actually saying "I'll hammer".

Thanks.

[pappums rat]

Not much to reply to, just moar Benmage-MoI back and forth and quote strip walls. But this quote from PV is pretty accurate about Korlash:

Korlash takes liberties, while PeregrineV lies.
Korlash keeps his stance, while PeregrineV argues his opponent.
Korlash asks for reads, PeregrineV demands and threatens for reads.
Korlash is scum, PeregrineV is town.

That is pretty much Korlash's reasoning behind it.

[PeregrineV]

No, they are not your problem. But, don't get bent out of shape when I find you scummy based on my incorrect conclusions if you don't feel the need to correct them.

Because that would have been not true. I would have hammered if
1. You had time to respond and I didn't like your response
2. You still had 6 votes on you from Friday to Monday, and #1 above.
3. If you ignored me, and #2 above.
4. Someone else hadn't done it, and #3 above.

If you presented a good synopsis of the wagon on town MoI, then I probably would have investigated your reads.

[Korlash]

Well, it seems like you like to argue for the sake of arguing. To the point of distracting from the ACTUAL argument, as you try to take ownership.
In addition, your arguing against a pro-town action (giving final reads).
Your pretty much defending why MoI isn't scum, while your suspects are Yates/me/Pappums (anyone who's said MoI is scummy).
In addition, you could have done the wagon analysis on MoI if you felt that way.
But you didn't.

- true and I attempt not to distract from the arguments but I suppose it can happen, any examples?
- I was not arguing against giving final reads, i was arguing against how you asked him to do it. vast difference.
- You can generalize it like that sure, but I attacked a 'bad scumtell' and the people pushing it and I attacked Rat for being scum.
- Could have, still can, but meaningless without his flip.
- Haven't yet, slight difference.

The fact you didn't use those exact words does not remove the implied meaning. I'm sure you think you are being clever but instead you are fooling no one with your games and accomplishing nothing more than proving to be irritating and not much fun to play this game with.

*tilts head to the side* Don't get it... The parts you bolded have almost nothing in common...

Yeah, I really said that one is definately town and the other is defiantely scum, didnt I?

Really? You're going to delve into Webster as a defense? Sure MOI exaggerated your statement a bit, but not so far as the change the meaning. Are you suggesting that if MOI had flipped town, you would not have voted Yates?

[Korlash]

That is pretty much Korlash's reasoning behind it.

How so?

[pappums rat]

Yeah, I really said that one is definately town and the other is defiantely scum, didnt I?

Really? You're going to delve into Webster as a defense? Sure MOI exaggerated your statement a bit, but not so far as the change the meaning. Are you suggesting that if MOI had flipped town, you would not have voted Yates?

I do believe Benmage asked you a question regarding something similar that MoI did, and you just brushed that off with BS. Would you like to comment on that now?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Peregrine

– Then why can’t you investigate the wagon independently of my input? I’m rather wondering why you need my opinion to draw your own independent conclusions? Because you liking or not liking my response is in a vacuum without you knowing my alignment. You can still make your own analysis based on both MoI-Town and MoI-scum without having to go through the hoops that you laid out.

--

\Wiktionary's definition for doubt: "To lack confidence in; to disbelieve, question, or suspect."
Wiktionary's definition(s) for think: "to ponder, to go over in one's head, To communicate to oneself in one's mind, to try to find a solution to a problem, to conceive of something or someone, To be of the opinion (that), to guess, to reckon, To consider, judge, regard, or look upon (something) as."

Yeah, I really said that one is definately town and the other is defiantely scum, didnt I?

Oh so you would like to play the semantics game? Using the fact that you peppered your post with ‘fence-sitting’ words doesn’t take away at all from my point – you are lining up attacks based on flips that haven’t happened yet. But you also post stuff like the following –

Once again, I will not answer whether or not you "make sense together" because there has been no flip, but my scumreads on both of you are pretty much equally strong.

So why are you willing to commit to one set of conditional reads before flips (that Yates and I are not of the same alignment) but not others (that Pizza and I fit well as partners)?

Quote 1: I liked shotgun's reasoning AND pizza's reaction was terrible and scummy.

Oh why was Pizza’s reaction scummy and not what you would expect from a VI again?

And you are happy to admit that you voted based on someone else’s case twice? Thanks for that.

Quote 3: What I was pointing out was that you heckled RC and stirred up shit to intentionally piss him off to make him an easy target (which you did very effectively) and you were doing something very similar with Fate and Benmage. In TV Mafia, you were not trying to get a rise out of me like you did with RC and with Fate and Benmage in this game.

Your logic on this falls completely apart considering RC was never lynched and it was only when you came in that the slot got real heat.

Futhermore are you suggesting that Benmage and Fate are ‘easy targets’ based on my interactions with them?

Quote 4: I voted you because you are scum.

EVERYONE SHOULD EXAMINE THIS RESPONSE CLOSELY.

I asked Papums to summarize why he voted for me in his own words. This is his response.

Then vote him. Thanks!

Quote 5: Yes it is rhetoric, and I never said Yates is the only person who could be scum on your wagon.

And yet you haven’t mentioned anyone other than Yates. Lack of other content on your part correlates with a conclusion that you don’t think anyone else on my wagon was scum for a reasonable reader.

BTW I am done with the walls and quote strip back and forth. I am not going to partake in miring this game in unreadable monster wall posts. If you have something you want me to respond to, do so in a succinct question sans wall plox.

Bullshit excuse. Mafia is a game of reading. Don’t want to read? Find a different game.

[pappums rat]

That is pretty much Korlash's reasoning behind it.

How so?

Because thats how I saw it.

So why are you willing to commit to one set of conditional reads before flips (that Yates and I are not of the same alignment) but not others (that Pizza and I fit well as partners)?

Damn, you are obsessed with pushing your horseshit "lining up lynches" point arent you? I didnt commit to jack shit. Why do you need me to say that pizza and you "fit well as partners" exactly? You two have not interacted enough to say something like that even if I wasnt going to wait for a flip before coming to a conclusion on whichever of you were not the one who got lynched.

Oh why was Pizza’s reaction scummy and not what you would expect from a VI again?

I explained why his reaction was scummy and I never said he was a VI. If someone was a VI, that does not mean you should ignore it when they do scummy things.

Your logic on this falls completely apart considering RC was never lynched and it was only when you came in that the slot got real heat.

Futhermore are you suggesting that Benmage and Fate are ‘easy targets’ based on my interactions with them?

ROFLMAO holy shit what a fucking god-awful LIE that was. RC was taking a TON OF SHIT because you were taking jabs at him and he replaced out BECAUSE HE COULDNT TAKE IT ANYMORE and because HE HAD A LARGE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO LYNCH HIM LARGELY BASED ON HIS INTERACTONS WITH YOU. I was lynched almost immediately even though I did some decent scumhunting BASED OFF OF RC'S BEHAVIOR. TO SAY OTHERWISE IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE.

I never said Fate and Benmage were easy targets, learn to read. I said you were trying to stir shit up between them LIKE YOU DID WITH RC.

Yeah I did summarize why i was voting you, and its a good reason.

And yet you haven’t mentioned anyone other than Yates. Lack of other content on your part correlates with a conclusion that you don’t think anyone else on my wagon was scum for a reasonable reader.

I didnt mention anyone other than Yates because I didnt think there were any other relational tells that I could put my finger on. That doesnt mean I wouldnt go back and look at the wagon if you were lynched.

Bullshit excuse. Mafia is a game of reading. Don’t want to read? Find a different game.

NO U. I just dont like the game to get mired in unreadable walls. Succinctness is protown. Korlash showed how antitown wallspam can be in Redwall Mafia.

[Korlash]

I do believe Benmage asked you a question regarding something similar that MoI did, and you just brushed that off with BS. Would you like to comment on that now?

I all ready answered Ben in post 342, what about that was BS? And regardless, why does MOI doing something (whether it's similar or otherwise) have any bearing in you doing it?

EVERYONE SHOULD EXAMINE THIS RESPONSE CLOSELY.

I asked Papums to summarize why he voted for me in his own words. This is his response.

Then vote him. Thanks!

This. There should be more of this.

I'll print up fliers and you stand there being handsome and clever MOI, aight?

[Korlash]

Because thats how I saw it.

That is so finely detailed...

I meant, how exactly is what Pere said accurate.

Yeah I did summarize why i was voting you, and its a good reason.

Sorry, for the idiots among me.. us... sorry, for the idiots among me- fuck, us... Where did you do this? Was it the 'because you're scum' or did you legitimately do it prior that I missed/don't remember? If you have legitimately done it I think that would be a very good thing for you to point out for me... us... fff....

[The Mini-Librarian]

I think the debate between Benmage and Korlash looks like town vs. town.

#349 is hella scummy.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: pappumsrat

First he defends himself using purely semantic reasoning. AND THEN BLASTS KORLASH FOR MAKING SEMANTIC ARGUMENTS.

Top that off with the utter lack of reasoning for why MoI is scum and pappums needs rope.

Also this is the response to my question about why and where Korlash became null for him.

When he decided he was going to spam the thread with semantic arguments that are going nowhere. He did this in a recent game as scum, but I think this is more of a playstyle thing than a scum-driven thing tbh.

Earlier in the game he said this.

I think the debate between Benmage and Korlash looks like town vs. town.

If anyone can show me how you can possibly say that Korlash vs Benmage is town vs. town but somehow Korlash's posts after that are suspect for some reason I'll be glad to listen. But I really don't see how you can possibly make that conclusion.

--

Don't think I'm done with vijay yet. What is everyone's opinion on him?

[Yates]

Don't think I'm done with vijay yet. What is everyone's opinion on him?

No sir, I don't like him. But he probably isn't going to be my vote for today. I'll have to reexamine your case on him and think it through. Aside from sheeping Korlash [of questionable alignment] and some wagon hopping [on unconfirmed players] I don't recall him doing anything that stands out as lynch worthy yet.

[Korlash]

No sir, I don't like him. But he probably isn't going to be my vote for today. I'll have to reexamine your case on him and think it through. Aside from sheeping Korlash [of questionable alignment] and some wagon hopping [on unconfirmed players] I don't recall him doing anything that stands out as lynch worthy yet.

Sorry, where did he sheep me? His vote on you? How was that sheeping me exactly? And what's with signifying 'unconfirmed players'? Aren't they all unconfirmed players at this point?

Don't think I'm done with vijay yet. What is everyone's opinion on him?

Eh, V2V is all right. This is reminiscent of my last two game with him where he was town. Although there is something missing... Anyway, I should know more about that tomorrow I think.

I do wish he would come over to join the cool kids on the Rat wagon though...

[Yates]

@MOI - Let me know if I missed anything:


1. "So let me get this straight – you are taking umbrage with people making points you feel portray you as stupid."
A. No. I know I'm not perfect. I am always willing to concede a point if the evidence suggests I screwed up. My counterargument to VJ was that a scum slip is as likely, if not MORE likely, than "scum-Yates" trying to fabricate a bs "slip" in order to get someone lynched.

2. "Yet you are happy to suggest I’m dumb enough, as scum, to go out of my way to find the only other game besides here and Feast of Crows where I opened with a “Last to Confirm” RVS vote that is bured deep in my personal thread list, bring it up showing like Feast I was scum there also, and make a slip regarding my alignment here."
A. That's what made it a "slip" to me. I don't think it was something you did intentionally. I know you are one of the more active players here and that you typically have numerous games going at once. I find it absolutely conceivable that you are not perfect.

I realize that I have already conceded this point but it bears repeating, I didn't know that "AFFC" referred to another game. So, at the time, it did sound like you were saying "I was scum there as well as here." Instead, it now looks like self-meta that shows that you were scum in the two games you could remember that you opened your rvs in this fashion. So, while I will concede that I was incorrect in calling the initial statement a "scum slip," I still think you made a mistake in mentioning that both games you opened like this resulted in you being scum. I don't know what to call this type of a mistake. "Meta slip?" "Self incrimination?" I don't want to argue the jargon as the word you want to use to refer to this mistake is not as important as the overarching point. The point, I am restating, is that I think you screwed up by pointing to two games where you acted a certain way and in both instances ended up being scum.

3. "I’m trying to fathom whether you are really this terrible a player."
A. There is nothing "terrible" about being annoyed by a certain player or player style. I felt like I was being baited and setup. As you can see, that statement ultimately rang hollow as I did go back to answering another page of questions. In retrospect, that whole line of questioning looks like a huge distraction and I regret playing into it. I still don't think the way Korlash addressed his concerns or the way he tried to make his points were done in a pro Town way. I also don't understand the Town motivation behind Korlash defending you unless you end up being neighbors. His recent posts suggesting he "regrets" you not getting lynched does not help his case. It looks like he feels confident that you are no longer getting lynched so he can try to distance himself from you now. Obviously, this only means something if one of you are lynched or nked and we have a flip but the interaction is there now and will be valuable reference material for further scum hunting.

4. "Are you trying to suggest that a RVS opening I’ve made in a whopping 3 games total here is strong enough evidence that I’m scum."
A. How many games do YOU think it takes to make that evidence stronger? 4? 5? If you were scum in 1 out of 3, I wouldn't pay it any attention. The fact that you are 2 for 2? Yeah. That's at LEAST a trend.

5. Vijay
A. It's hard for me to say what VJ is thinking. At that point, all he was really doing was sheeping Korlash and quoting other people's posts. I don't mind having votes on me but at least make it a good one. His stated reason in his vote post was contradictory and flawed as hell.

6. "So it isn’t scummy to put someone at L-1 but it is also not scummy not to put someone at L-1 if they are the exact same person? I just want you to be clear on your stance here."
A. My argument was that it wasn't scummy for knox not to put you at L-1 as you seemed to imply. Her stated reason "wanting to extend the day" made sense at the time for the reasons I have already stated [low content, low activity from numerous slots, etc]. The fact that you were unmoving on this point raised the hairs on the back of my neck. If you are going to make a statement like that, you need to know someone may call your bluff. I called it. It's as simple as that. If you get lynched and flip scum, knox's stated reason for not wanting to put you at L-1 would need to be reexamined as AT THAT POINT it would begin to look fishy. I've already stated all of this but there it is again.

7. "you are saying that ‘drawing attention to yourself’ is not scum behavior. Yet I went out of my way to do meta legwork for Benmage that brought attention to myself. Yet I’m scum for doing it?"
A. I would say that in GENERAL scum want to garner relatively little attention. I don't think you expected your post to garner as much attention as it did, to be blunt.

[Yates]

And what's with signifying 'unconfirmed players'? Aren't they all unconfirmed players at this point?

Yes. And because everyone is unconfirmed, his wagon hopping does not reveal as much as it will when we start getting flips. So, as stated, this isn't super scummy yet.

[PeregrineV]

@Peregrine – Then why can’t you investigate the wagon independently of my input? I’m rather wondering why you need my opinion to draw your own independent conclusions? Because you liking or not liking my response is in a vacuum without you knowing my alignment. You can still make your own analysis based on both MoI-Town and MoI-scum without having to go through the hoops that you laid out.

I can. But, I would have to do a dead-town-MoI wagon analysis, and a dead-scum-MoI wagon analysis. Which means reading all of the posts, reasons, etc, as if you were town, and scum knew it, or reading them all as if they didn't know you were scum, but some did.

I could do this, and single handedly solve the mystery of "whose the scum" if only I have enough hours in a day. Since I don't, and the living players would do there own version of who-was-on-the-wagon day2, I asked you, the potentially dead player, to do so before you died.

Are you really not understanding what I asked for or why I did?

[Korlash]

Yes. And because everyone is unconfirmed, his wagon hopping does not reveal as much as it will when we start getting flips. So, as stated, this isn't super scummy yet.

Oh okay, I misunderstood you then. I thought you were saying it made him MORE scummy. Point withdrawn. What about his sheeping?

[vijay2vasandani]

@vijay: There's a few different reasons why that could have happened. I'm not sure why exactly you might have done so; it could have been that your MoI's buddy, that you didn't want to be caught on a townie lynch, that you didn't think anyone was actually going to jump on to hammer MoI. The point is I don't know "why". I do know that I see scum motivation from it. Unless you can explain the following three point I will probably keep my vote on you.

a) Why you were on MoI for so long ignoring the meat of the case against him?

b₁) Why did you feel it neccessary to jump to Yates at that time?

b₂) Why do you think the reasoning you gave in 220 is stronger than the points raised against MoI?

a) I initially voted MoI for that weak slip I saw. When other people began attacking MoI using meta, I didn't understand what the hell was going on. All I knew was that somebody who I had a scumread on was getting votes so it was all good for me.

b1) I switched to Yates because I felt that my reasoning for Yates-scum (ie deliberately misinterpreting somebody) was far more valid than my reason for voting MoI.

b2) because I'm pretty sure scum purposely misinterpreting things is a far more viable reason for a vote than a slip most people don't even agree on? Note, I didn't get or like the meta accusations used by Fate and Ben.

[Yates]

What about his sheeping?

I called his vote "sheeping" in 222. Why are you asking this now when I brought it up nearly 150 posts ago?

One interesting outcome from this exercise is that VJ looks much scummier in ISO than I remembered and I think I'm starting to better understand Mini Librarian's read. He does a lot of quoting and agreeing with people randomly without actually providing new information. That is the 1000 foot overview takeaway I get from his ISO. I still don't have that one specific "thing" I can point to yet but I'm not getting a Town vibe.

[The Jester]

Mod please replace me. I'm not going to be able to keep up at this rate. Sorry everyone, and good luck.

[pappums rat]

Why I think MoI is scum (cliffsnotes edition):

I initially voted MoI for what I believed was him going after an easy target for poor reasons (V2V).

Added to that was the whole thing about him researching who confirmed last and that he used the same method of random voting only 2 other times (both as scum). These wouldnt be reasons to vote him, but they did add to the development of my scumread on him.

Then what really set it off was his goading of Benmage and Fate and trying to cause trouble. He did something similar (as I have said) in KGB Mafia and that's when I decided MoI was definately scum.

MoI has claimed Benmage is scummy for doing some of the same things that he has.

MoI keeps pushing that I am trying to "line up lynches" when I simply made the statement that I think that he and Yates are on different teams. He has also repeatedly tried to push me into saying whether I think pizza is his scumbuddy when I suspect pizza for completely seperate reasons.

Those are the principle reasons why I think MoI is scum.