TM2012: Scummies 2011.5 - Let the credits roll!

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 1, Votecount 1

This is top of the page. Just call me Equinox.

Zar (1) - hitogoroshi
xRECKONERx (1) - Captain Ajax
Kublai Khan (1) - theamatuer
Captain Ajax (1) - xRECKONERx
Quilford (1) - BBmolla

hitogoroshi (2) - DeasVail, Quilford

theamatuer (1) - Kublai Khan

Not voting

(5) : MagnaofIllusion, The Fonz, Gaoth, T-Bone, Zar

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline:

21st of May at 11:50pm (EDT)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-05-21 23:50:00)

Countdown to the end of First Half Judging

: (expired on 2012-05-13 23:50:00)

[Zar]

Vote BBMolla

That's not a town post.

[The Fonz]

. There's obviously some utility in being able to track the flow of the scummies to some degree, but do we think the scum would get a significant benefit knowing the group distribution? The wording of II-4 ("at night, the scumteam is informed of") suggests they don't know by default, anyway.

Well, the benefit of keeping the group distribution secret depends entirely on there being no scum in one or more of the groups doing the judging. I'm not sure how making things public would benefit the scum at all, if I'm honest.

I'm not scum unfortunately. Are you?

I'm voting hito because I think he's scummy.

Vote: DeasVail

At this point in a game, if you had a real scumminess-based reason to vote someone, and given the low level of information available to the town, I find it hard to see why you'd keep it secret.

You seem to be engaging in a bit of pointless hyper-WIFOM. If the scummie-judging groups are random and Scum may be randomly chosen as being part of the groups (unless Faraday/Mina are creating massive game-breaking mason groups), then they already have plenty of opportunity to influence who gets what award. On top of that, they get the pick of whatever is unawarded. So I have no idea what extra evil shenanigans they have on top of that, but it can't be too evil.

I'd imagine it involves ballot-stealing.

VOTE: hitogoroshi

DV = town

Why would him being town make him right?

Unvote, Vote: Zar

Same reason I gave for DV, but DV has ponied up an argument that might actually lead to a wagon (and done so in a way that does not, to me, seem to indicate he just made it up on the spot).

[Quilford]

dv being town doesn't make him right. you've got it backwards.

[Captain Ajax]

who are you

Trojan Horse. And lord almighty, can the man hold a grudge.

Yep, Trojan Horse here. I should've clarified that in my first post.

Do DeasVail and Quilford normally interact like this when they're together in a game? (Serious question. I've never played with either.) They're being awfully chatroom-y here.

His first post gives me the impression of scum trying too hard to look town. This is because the first paragraph is really just stating the obvious, as I'm pretty sure the players here are competent. It's like saying, "Now remember kids, always get a claim before lynching" at the very start of a non-newbie game. Sure, I've played games where this doesn't happen, but

I'm assuming that people won't do anything stupid this game

and it wouldn't cross my mind to tell people not to. So yeah, I think he was leaping onto the opportunity to look town.

That's a really bad assumption to make. I think somebody has done something really stupid in pretty much every game I've played here. (As often as not, it's me.) I have no problem with hito's first post.

[The Fonz]

Ajax, do you believe DeasVail is sincere but wrong, or scummy?

[The Fonz]

EBWOP: And what about Quilford piggybacking on the same?

[Zar]

Unvote, Vote: Zar

Same reason I gave for DV, but DV has ponied up an argument that might actually lead to a wagon (and done so in a way that does not, to me, seem to indicate he just made it up on the spot).

BBMolla gets the joke?

[The Fonz]

Unvote, Vote: Zar

Same reason I gave for DV, but DV has ponied up an argument that might actually lead to a wagon (and done so in a way that does not, to me, seem to indicate he just made it up on the spot).

BBMolla gets the joke?

You're saying it was a joke?

[Zar]

I am.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hello fellow Scummie holders! I think Gaoth and Captain Ajax are the only players here I’ve had exactly zero exposure to.

--

My thoughts on the Scummie procedures … I think Day 2 each group of judges should out who is in their judging group. Scum is not going to be excluded by design from the QTs for obvious balance reasons so it is safe to say they will likely have access to all the information about the awards and powers. Likewise they will know what has NOT been distributed and thus will know what to look for. Lather rinse repeat Day 3 for the Day 2 awards.

--

Hito: let's keep the judging groups secret. Not sure if it makes a difference, but the less the scum knows, the better.

Scum aren’t going to be excluded from judging groups (otherwise we have effective POE Day 1 and Day 2 that makes the game pointless) so this looks very much like empty “Look at me I’m Town” faux-posting.

VOTE: Captain Ajax

Also his “Are these players who seem chummy here always this way” in Post 29 looks to me like scum uncomfortable with the possibility of easy Town reads and the resulting Town voting block.

--

Hito gets Town points for Post 13.

--

@Quilford and Deas

– please indicate where this game was on your personal list of preferences BEFORE the role PMs from Zoraster! Thank you.

--

Also it occurs to me that nobody selected for the first round of judging is likely going to get selected for the second round. So single-representatives are fine, but no full-group reveals. Not until Day 3. Just to be safe.

What makes you think this at all?

--

@Zar

– Nothing you found actually vote-worthy before your first post?

[The Fonz]

@ Zar:

(Since MOI just ninja'd me) Vote stays, but for different reasons to why I initially made it.

Your first post came at a time when there was enough going on in thread worth commenting on, that entering with a joke vote and nothing else smacks of lack of interest in scumhunting.

[Zar]

@MOI: no, nothing struck me as evil in intent.

[Captain Ajax]

Ajax, do you believe DeasVail is sincere but wrong, or scummy?

I've played against a "too townie" scum before. Fooled me the whole game. (It was vollkan, to be exact.) So I understand where DeasVail is coming from.

EBWOP: And what about Quilford piggybacking on the same?

Hmm. He was awfully quick to change his mind about hito. Yeah. I think Quilford's scummier than DeasVail.

Unvote

Now I need to ponder a bit.

[Lost Butterfly]

Since there seems to be confusion surrounding rule 4) Undecided categories.

a) At night, the scumteam is informed of which categories/roles were left undecided. They may then pick one award from the undecided categories to assign to a player who was eligible for the award during the day (i.e., was not a member of that category's judging group).

'Undecided' and 'Unawarded' are two different things. Undecided in 4a only refers to when you have not picked a role in the judging category.

b) If a category was undecided due to the judges' inability to reach a consensus on a role, the scumteam may choose to assign any award in it. If the judges agreed on a Scummie, but no candidates received any secret ballot votes, the scumteam can only assign that Scummie.

So. Let's say the Awards are X, Y and Z. If you pick X then the scumteam don't get a free pick of Y and Z to award, they are

not

undecided. They only get to pick if you don't decide between X,Y and Z. There is no automatic free pick of abilities for the scum team.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for the clarification LB!

[The Fonz]

Scum aren’t going to be excluded from judging groups (otherwise we have effective POE Day 1 and Day 2 that makes the game pointless) so this looks very much like empty “Look at me I’m Town” faux-posting.

VOTE: Captain Ajax

It is possible that random selection leaves one or more judging groups scum-free, no?

Also, why are you proposing keeping the memberships secret until D2, when your line of argument seems to me to suggest it makes no difference? What have I missed?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It is possible that random selection leaves one or more judging groups scum-free, no?

Also, why are you proposing keeping the memberships secret until D2, when your line of argument seems to me to suggest it makes no difference? What have I missed?

Of course it is possible scum aren't in a group via random assortment. No reason to operate under that assumption.

As for keeping membership secret to Day 2 - if you believe the first part then keeping the scum in the dark about the make-up of the Day 1 committee membership until Day 2 is the best way to minimize the possibility of 'Vote Tampering'.

In the end I tend to think conservatively ... don't assume scum are uninformed but operate in a way that would best benefit Town on things we have complete control in case they don't.

[The Fonz]

It is possible that random selection leaves one or more judging groups scum-free, no?

Also, why are you proposing keeping the memberships secret until D2, when your line of argument seems to me to suggest it makes no difference? What have I missed?

Of course it is possible scum aren't in a group via random assortment. No reason to operate under that assumption.

As for keeping membership secret to Day 2 - if you believe the first part then keeping the scum in the dark about the make-up of the Day 1 committee membership until Day 2 is the best way to minimize the possibility of 'Vote Tampering'.

In the end I tend to think conservatively ... don't assume scum are uninformed but operate in a way that would best benefit Town on things we have complete control in case they don't.

No, but the argument for Ajax's position doesn't require it to be certain that any group is scum-free: if it's possible, withholding is better on a 'the less scum know' basis. Or, what you say below.

Basically, your suspicion of Ajax seems to me have little more than semantics to it: you also want to keep the group memberships hidden, but you're accusing him of faux-town posturing for taking what as far as I can see is essentially the same position: "Not sure if it'll help, but it might, so we'll do it."

[The Fonz]

Also, I suggest keeping them hidden for other reasons:

I'm almost sure that one of the scummie options is going to be Paragon, and that it's going to be some kind of investigative ability. The judges for that group will be effectively outing themselves as not-cop if they declare.

[theamatuer]

I think we should out the awards if a majority couldn't be reached in a group though.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Basically, your suspicion of Ajax seems to me have little more than semantics to it: you also want to keep the group memberships hidden, but you're accusing him of faux-town posturing for taking what as far as I can see is essentially the same position: "Not sure if it'll help, but it might, so we'll do it."

For suspicion based on the first page of the game it strikes me at a gut level as suspect. He gave no reasoning just a “We should totally not do this”. If you disagree so be it.

Also, I suggest keeping them hidden for other reasons:

I'm almost sure that one of the scummie options is going to be Paragon, and that it's going to be some kind of investigative ability. The judges for that group will be effectively outing themselves as not-cop if they declare.

So exactly what about saying “Group A contained Player X, Y and Z” without indicating which Scummies were being discussed in any way gives scum information?

I’m not advocating immediately discussing what abilities were discussed or handed out. Just the groups themselves. Long term that information is likely to be powerful PoE wise.

--

I think we should out the awards if a majority couldn't be reached in a group though.

I think we should probably ‘Kill with Fire” within the group that can’t come to a consensus in the time frame given all the warnings being given by the Mods.

[hitogoroshi]

You seem to be engaging in a bit of pointless hyper-WIFOM. If the scummie-judging groups are random and Scum may be randomly chosen as being part of the groups (unless Faraday/Mina are creating massive game-breaking mason groups), then they already have plenty of opportunity to influence who gets what award. On top of that, they get the pick of whatever is unawarded. So I have no idea what extra evil shenanigans they have on top of that, but it can't be too evil.

Pointless? Do you think we should not consider the constraint 'Don't give out a role that would be devastating to scum' when giving out PRs?

Yeah, maybe the extra mechanic isn't

too

evil. There's still the chance of 2 scum in a judging group, still the chance of a 'strong town' read actually being scum, etc. Are you seriously advocating that we award powers and assume they are very likely to land on town? 'Cause if there's anyone in the town that thinks that then post 13 did exactly what it had to do.

His first post gives me the impression of scum trying too hard to look town. This is because the first paragraph is really just stating the obvious, as I'm pretty sure the players here are competent. It's like saying, "Now remember kids, always get a claim before lynching" at the very start of a non-newbie game. Sure, I've played games where this doesn't happen, but I'm assuming that people won't do anything stupid this game and it wouldn't cross my mind to tell people not to. So yeah, I think he was leaping onto the opportunity to look town.

Have you read the last years team mafia set? There was a quicklynch in the theme game, and it was on scum, and everyone was happy. Today, if there is a quicklynch, and it is on scum, I will still be pretty pissed, because we could have slow lynched that scum and then not fucked up with the scummies. Call it 'trying too hard', but this seems to be a distinction worth elaborating on. More importantly, I didn't want a player to derphammer and claim

any

sort of defense tomorrow.

MoI is town, Fonz is town.

Ajax, do you believe DeasVail is sincere but wrong, or scummy?

I've played against a "too townie" scum before. Fooled me the whole game. (It was vollkan, to be exact.) So I understand where DeasVail is coming from.

EBWOP: And what about Quilford piggybacking on the same?

Hmm. He was awfully quick to change his mind about hito. Yeah. I think Quilford's scummier than DeasVail.

Unvote

Now I need to ponder a bit.

Unvote, Vote: Captain Ajax

(L-4)

We're still in the low pressure phase, and the idea of 'needing to ponder' instead of just instinctively switching (you would have put Quilford at what, L-5?), suggests a level of extreme fear about voting 'wrong'. Given that votes are very weak in terms of lynch power at this stage of the game, I'd only really expect to see that in a scumbag who's terrified of being outed.

[Zar]

I think we should out the awards if a majority couldn't be reached in a group though.

I agree with theamatuer. If for some reason a judging group fails to reach consensus, we should know what scummies were available in that set. That way we at least know what we could be confronted against.

Also, since the judges of an undecided group are not eligible to receive an award from the category they were voting on, the holder would be among the players outside that group.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh yeah, I should say I am with both MoI and theam on that score. If there is a group of 3 awards that didn't have a consensus locked in, the group members and the power roles should be fullclaimed. I will also likely advocate some killing with fire going down within that group, assuming we can pin down

who

is responsible for the delay.

I'd much rather not think about that at all because every group had their shit together, though. So let's do that.