TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.08

Captain Haddock (4) - Llamarble, Amrun, Bub Bidderskins, Matias
Thestatusquo (3) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez
Johhog (2) - Regfan, Benmage
Benmage (1) - Johhog
Matias (1) - Captain Haddock

Not Voting (2) - SocioPath, Thestatusquo

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

[Zachrulez]

And yes, I'm weary of Socio's low activity as well. There was a game way back where I was on a scumteam with him where he maintained a very low activity level. This game was a while back mind you, but I remember him being more active/proactive in last year's white flag as well.

[Amrun]

For the record I love me some lurking as scum, and I'm not stupid either.

Also, it's never too early to burn the heathens.

I understand the logic. It's not bad. I just felt obligated to offer the counterpoint. I'm internally conflicted. I'm just hoping he'll show up soon and we can judge him based off of play rather non-play.

[Amrun]

kuribo pointed out that lynching any lurker D1 is stupid because being on a town lynch D1 docks us points. Lynching a lurker is just a crapshoot.

I had a brief paranoid thought that you didn't care about this because you're scum, but I forgot about it myself so I dismissed it.

[SocioPath]

The depressing thing though, is that we LOST last years White Flag mafia as well.
So may that as it may, I am not going to make the same mistakes twice.

[Johhog]

I have some limited access tomorrow as I'm in Denmark most of the day.

PEdit: A serious WTF. C'mon Socio, you've posted two posts in all this time and none of them had any content.

[Amrun]

So instead you're going to lurk as an attempt to win?

That is a fucking awful excuse.

[SocioPath]

Yes, black and white, those are the only two colors of the rainbow.

[Zachrulez]

kuribo pointed out that lynching any lurker D1 is stupid because being on a town lynch D1 docks us points. Lynching a lurker is just a crapshoot.

I had a brief paranoid thought that you didn't care about this because you're scum, but I forgot about it myself so I dismissed it.

Paranoia is a sign of the townie, so that's bodes well for my read of you at least.

I haven't really given much thought to the complexities of the scoring system beyond just doing what I can to win the game.

[Zachrulez]

Also Socio, didn't you pretty much singlehandedly catch the scumteam last year?

Not sure how you can "make the same mistake" in regards to that.

[SocioPath]

Also Socio, didn't you pretty much singlehandedly catch the scumteam last year?

Yes, and then the game went to night, and all my words meant nothing.

D1 influence can only go so far.

Lack of action does not mean lack of thought.

[Amrun]

Hey, I listened. But no one listened to ME.

[Zachrulez]

Hey, I listened. But no one listened to ME.

Yeah, the town just ate itself.

Let's not let that happen this time.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm not voting for somebody who hasn't posted this early. Socio, what are your thoughts on Haddock and Jahudo?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Also, Myo says that TSQ doesn't have a lurking meta as scum, and that he generally comes off as nice and likeable as scum.

[Benmage]

@Zach/CES why?

[Thestatusquo]

Hey folks. Had a brutal few days at work. Time to get down to bidness in this game, probably tomorrow! So excited.

[Regfan]

Isa claims that he complained multiple times about the White Flag setup in the chat. Why would you lie Regfan?

My memory of it was that White Flag was given to your team when you didn't vote on having it, Isa said that he liked White Flag but that his team-mates hated it.

I was hoping that leaving this thread breathe for a good 24 hours or so would mean that I could come back and read through a good 5-6 pages of content to scumhunt based of but this thread seems dead at the moment and there's no reason for it to be. We all got PMs telling us that the day started and considering TSQ is posting elsewhere on the site I can only assume that he's recieved the PM and knows the games started so his abscene and lack of posts is intentional or strategic and I think it's slightly more likely to come from scum though I'm willing to wait to hear his reasoning for avoiding the thread upon entrance.

Also it's time this thread actually started having some legitimate reasoning behind reads because "I think X is town", "Y thinks Z is scum" means nothing alone. In this setup we essentially have 5 lynches to lynch 2 scum inside of. That means that we lynch 5/13 of the playerlist. If we can agree on 8 players that are town and that we won't lynch at any point then we win even if one of them is wrong so people stating and explaining town reads for others to point out flaws on or agree with is key. And sure, this is likely to let mafia know who are vital night kills but the truth of the matter is that if scum can read and I'm assuming at least 1 out of the 12 people that are scum can then players that we all agree upon being town are likely to bite the bullet anyway.

Matias - Strongtown

Slaxx and I both strongly agree that Matias is town and Nicos is coming around to that thought-process at the moment too. His reaction to the votes on him alongside his 'explanations' of his actions both read as strong town-tells and aren't things that I particularly see him doing as scum. I also found his 'singer isn't picking scum' comment to be townie, it'd essentially limit his mslynch pool as scum which isn't something he'd be aiming to do that early in the game. Furthermore we really liked his little mentions of his team qt discussion, specifically their thoughts on Bub.

Singer - Strongtown

Slaxx and I also both agree on Singer being town, no comment on her from anyone else in our team though. We find her push towards Matias at the start to feel very genuine although wrong. I'm very interested in her relaying Hitos thoughts of his this game into the thread though.

Benmage - Strongtown

I've been fooled by him before but I find his discussion about why he'd pick a town role to be genuine. I also find the fact that his town/scum lists has a sheer amount of town reads to be a town-tell, again don't see scum putting themselves in a corner or having to put themselves in a position where they're forced to change their reads so early on. The only slight issue we have with him is that he dropped his scum read/FoS on Matias the second he found out he was DH.

Bub - Mediumtown

We really like his early attempt to jump right into scumhunting and his actions have read as quite genuine. We also like the small snippets we see from their QT relayed into the thread. Slaxx says that Bub is able to have a decently strong early game as scum but that he crumbles and is very easy to strengthen/confirm a read on in the middle to late game so we're happy enough to stick him in town and reasses him later.

Zachrules - Nulltown

I had a strongish town read on Zach earlier however Slaxx actually disagrees with it and finds a few of his posts to be 'forced', specifically his comment about paranoia and re-looking through his ISO he hasn't done as much scumhunting as I earlier thought. The only thing that's preventing me from moving him to the scum area is that I was pretty confident coming into the game that Zach would be taking a town slot.

All the rest of my reads and thoughts will have to come later when I have more time and can get on MSN with Slaxx again.

PEdit: TSQ, why not post earlier to state that you're likely to be busy for a day or two?

[Llamarble]

I AM IN HIGH SPIRITS TODAY.

Regfan I agree with your list entirely except I don't trust benmage.
His spaghettireads/posting reminds me of winvitational.
TSQ WHY DID YOU HAVE 14 POSTS ON MS BETWEEN GAMESTART AND NOW?

UNVOTE:
Haddock is harping on his 'matias was trying to subtlely direct lynchattention onto me' thing enough that he probably believes it.
Also his argument is grounded on the whole "I am town so how people treat me matters a lot" thing which towns use a bit more.

Also I am feeling CES scum again.
VOTE: CES
191 is BS because Johhog's team mafia related dealings are one of the sketchiest things about him because he spends a lot of time talking about it and scum LOVE talking about things they can be honest about.

As for scumland, it was too much talking about things that aren't who is scum and why, vote sitting in one place for awhile instead of moving around aggressively, and the way you treated DH's vote on you as invalid because of your meta instead of invalid because you're town.

All this still holds. And when CES did move his vote he put it on a lurker, AKA more safevoting.

[Captain Haddock]

I'm too sure Matias is scum to lurker lynch and the case on Johnhog is a lot weaker than Matias'. I'm sure Johnhog could've sheeped everyone like Matias if he wanted too.

Llamamrble, why haven't you said anything about me since post 57?

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

I missed this completely, but now that I look back on it, Haddock's actions seem really scummy. In context, it seems like a very weird thing for him to say, like he perceived even slightest thing to be a threat. I don't like it.

unvote; vote: Captain Haddock

Subtle encouragement to vote me but no attack and voting someone else is no threat at all. Your logic applies more to Matias, as he took no issue with my reasons for voting him(ignored my case) but voted me. You and Amrun should be voting him.

No I shouldn't be voting for Mat. Why? Because he didn't perceive a non-existent threat. I'm not sure if you understand the case against you. I'm voting you because you thought there was some sort of threat against you in Matias' posting when there wasn't anything of the sort. That is self-centered scum play IMO.

Matias obviously wasn't even going to call me scum because no one was interested so there was no threat at all! If you meant that I thought he was trying to encourage suspicion on me, yes and that's scummy if he would rather have no vote and not give an opinion till he found out how much support there would be. Since when did scum push people they percieve a threat rather than people they can lynch?

NO, Encouraging suspicion of a player you won't even vote is scummy.

It's not at all, actually. You think everyone is limited to one scum read per day and can only discuss the person they are voting? No.

He wasn't calling me a suspect, he gave no opinion of me. Why are you using the word scum read when he prefered having no vote to voting me? That question is misreping and loaded.

Haddock, I posted at least once of every thing in this game that you said I was lacking.

An empty "ur wrong"... Matias I don't care if you think you've corrected you play. If there was anything wrong with my reasons you could explain straight away.

Me voting him is no reason to vote me unless he hates the reasons, or is scum OMGUSing.

Or rather, things that you think doesn't make sense were explained. Final soon, I'll get more indepth later.

Open question: Does TSQ have meta on lurking as scum?

He explained nothing. If you have the time try and read our ISO's quickly side by side. This is a lie and he needs to hang for it alone. "I'll get more indepth later because I'm busy", 4 hours later he posts, it's not hard to be more indepth than this.

I should post a read list too. Ask if you have questions.

Singer
Regfan
Amrun
Llamarble
Socio
Bub
Zach
Johhog
Benmage
Haddock
CES

TSQ hasn't posted yet

I wonder if it's a coincidence that all the bandwagoned players are at the bottom?


Did anyone notice the size of my wagon? It makes me more sure I've caught scum.

[singersigner]

Also, Myo says that TSQ doesn't have a lurking meta as scum, and that he generally comes off as nice and likeable as scum.

Hey folks. Had a brutal few days at work. Time to get down to bidness in this game, probably tomorrow! So excited.

>_>

Anyway, this was a LoL day for me so I'll be catching up tomorrow...also with input from ~team~.

[Captain Haddock]

Oh, ninja'D.

[Regfan]

Got enough time to finish these up. Right now overall I'd be happy lynching either Johhog/Amrun though I want to get a solid read on CES/Socio/Shea soon.

Captain - Mediumtown

I can see why people FoS him - his post seem like somewhat of a pre-emptive attack at the people who suspect him however I get the feeling that he generally believes he's caught scum in Matias and have seen a lot of people play in a similar fashion to him in the past as town. It'd probably be worthwhile to do a meta-check up on him and I'll likely do it in the next few days or so but I'd like it if someone else did it as well.

CES - Null

Blind spot. Reading through his ISO I really don't lean either way and we haven't mentioned him once in our QT or discussions at all. I can see what Llarmable is saying about him but really don't find it to be a scum-tell or a strong one.

Llarmable - Nullscum

Slaxx thinks/or at least thought earlier that he was scum, his reasoning for giving out 'townpoints' was something that we both really didn't like about Llarmable and felt as forced (On a side note Slaxx thinks that if Llarmable is scum that he gave town points to one of his partners in that for sure, I don't really agree but he wants it known). We also dislike the fashion in which he's stated things from his QT, they don't read as genuine recounts of it and the 'I'll go into it if I'm run up" rather than just outright stating it is something I don't understand. Though I do like how he dropped his Captain scum read and his push on CES is a lot better than nearly any of the other pushes at the moment.

Amrun - Mediumscum

This is probably the most difficult read for me in the whole room, I have trouble reading her in general. I either read her as obvtown or scum, there's no real middle ground. I can follow a lot of the logic she uses in her posts this game however it reads as if she's attempting to fence-sit or leave herself an opening whenever possible. For instance her argument of TSQ wouldn't put himself in this position as scum is something that

should

lead towards her believing he's town if she believes the theory but she instead states him as a null-read. I also didn't like her 'rage' section in #160, it reads as somewhat forced.

Johhog - Mediumscum

I think he's scum and am pretty certain that I'm remembering how the chat in the draft went down and Isa saying he liked White Flag. His posts aside from team based stuff have also been very lacking, specifically his questions have seemed very pointless and read more as an attempt to seem contributing and active and his list of reads having both Matias/Haddock in the scum section reads as leaving an opening to jump on either of them (Both of them were leading suspects then.)

[Amrun]

Okay, so you think I'm faking rage about a game that happened a year ago and that it makes me scum?

I know you're bad at reading me, Regfan, but come the fuck on. lol

And I never said that TSQ was town for his lurking - I said that I think it is a null tell. How a null tell should lead me to think he is town I do not know. My team and I agree on this. I'm not going to restate our exact reasoning, but it's close to what I stated here.

Also, is your problem with Johhoq that he suspected two people going at each other and is therefore playing both sides of the field, or something else?

I really don't think what you're doing right now is pro-town, but you're town, so I'll just let you do whatever you want to do.

[Regfan]

Did anyone notice the size of my wagon? It makes me more sure I've caught scum.

I've seen this argument used a dozen times before and it's nearly never right. I'd like your reads and thoughts on other players than Matias though because right now you're tunneling on him and I'm pretty positive he's town.

Okay, so you think I'm faking rage about a game that happened a year ago and that it makes me scum? I know you're bad at reading me, Regfan, but come the fuck on. lol. And I never said that TSQ was town for his lurking - I said that I think it is a null tell. How a null tell should lead me to think he is town I do not know. My team and I agree on this. I'm not going to restate our exact reasoning, but it's close to what I stated here.

Also, is your problem with Johhoq that he suspected two people going at each other and is therefore playing both sides of the field, or something else?

I really don't think what you're doing right now is pro-town, but you're town, so I'll just let you do whatever you want to do.

I don't think the rage makes you scum alone no, but I don't find it genuine at all. Also you stated that you don't think that TSQ would do X as scum. TSQ was doing X, therefore you should think that he's not scum by that logic and therefore town however you stated a null-read on him, that doesn't mesh.

And yes, I think Johhog is/was leaving himself open to options and playing the field.

Also, how do you think that this is anti-town? Sharing of all information including reasoning behind reads is what's going to win this game.