TM2012 - Closed Normal(Over!)

[jasonT1981]

I'm still confused as to how that makes me scum.

it doesnt make you scum, it just means you are someone I would look more into if we do get a lynch on Capt and she flips scum.

As I said, there are quite a few before you I would consider/want the lynch of.... if it had not been from that comment, from my no 1 scum read then yes, you probably would be in the town group.

[CooLDoG]

@jason, sorry, this talk of qts and stuff got me confused. It will take a little adjustment for me to sort things out.

Yay Porochaz is exactly like Llamarble described. I've never wanted a teammate to be wrong so badly in my life.

Scum is busy lurking right now this is a bunch of townies sniping at each other.

So you think that people can lurk within two days of the game starting? While it is debatable are we really going to go lynch a lurker d1? Ehh, I think we can do better.

@pere, do you have any good scum reads yet? Reasons for those reads?

[GreyICE]

I dunno, CD. Have you read Mastermind of Scum?

[PeregrineV]

Are you saying "convince him he can't read you"?

Are you saying anything useful in this game?

I haven't said much yet, aside from asking a question and trying to clarify what I've read so far. Stuff that is useful to me.

Who would you have right now as 1 & 2 scum reads?

out of everything you have read so far, what have you been able to clarify?

If there are lots of posts that aren't saying anything, that gives me a feeling of scumminess. I get that from both Capt and Username. But, both of those are more gut based than evidence based.

Slaxx is my biggest up-in-the-air. What I read and my sixth sense are warring when it comes to him.

And by clarify, I meant Post 152. That whole conversation seems strange, because how do you "convince something they can't read you." The whole game is about reads, and you can convince someone they are wrong in their reads, but not that they can't make reads. And the assumption that a specific person CAN'T get a read on another specific person just because they are that person makes about as much sense as the whole "I caught you as scum in game A, B, and C" thing.

pedit-@CoolDog-The two I mentioned so far, and mostly gut. But, I do think that people have to active lurk to lurk in this game. Aside from you playing it, your team mates would be on your ass to get in the thread if it came to it, so lurking in team games is much more suspicious.

[Porochaz]

Heh, did not realise you were in Llamarbles team. Don't know why you need his opinion, Im fairly confident we have played in games together. Suffice to say Llamarble opinion is fair enough to him. In the few games we've played it's been "Llama spouts shit, I vote him for being scummy, Llama keeps digging, Im not sure whether he's scum or VI, Llama didn't shut up, I don't care and just want him removed" So yeah, Llama can be pissy about that if he wants. You, however, have no reason to start being a dick about facts that cannot change.

Your reason for finding me suspicious is that Im not posting enough. I think thats unfair in that we are 2 days in and I've still posted multiple times both days, but there is no way in hell that I can forgo work to be able to post in that game, I'm sorry to anyone who disagrees with my priorities, but my job is higher up than this game or my team.

However, if we're going to put some "scum hunting" in this post, the fact your trying to rile up players rather than get useful content is noted. So are you scum trying to divert attention or are you just a Internet Stranger clone?

pedit: So it appears your scumhunting is limited to "that person isn't posting much, so they are scum. Oh and I don't like Haylen"

[Glork]

Confirm Vote: Pere

[UberNinja]

Slaxx is my biggest up-in-the-air. What I read and my sixth sense are warring when it comes to him.

Do me a special favor and give me something a little more concrete than this.

Thanks.

[Glork]

Slaxx is my biggest up-in-the-air. What I read and my sixth sense are warring when it comes to him.

Do me a special favor and give me something a little more concrete than this.

Thanks.

Or you can skip the part where he spews a bunch of nonsensical bullshit, and just lynch him.

kthx

[UberNinja]

No, how about you stop being so needlessly loquacious and let me do my thing the way I want to do it.

"kthx"

[GreyICE]

Do you two want me to get out a ruler?

[Glork]

No need. Mine is wayyyyyyy bigger.

[UberNinja]

That's not what she said.

And GreyICE, there's no need for completely separate reasons.

[PeregrineV]

Slaxx is my biggest up-in-the-air. What I read and my sixth sense are warring when it comes to him.

Do me a special favor and give me something a little more concrete than this.

Thanks.

Or you can skip the part where he spews a bunch of nonsensical bullshit, and just lynch him.

kthx

Which part did you not understand?

[PeregrineV]

Slaxx is my biggest up-in-the-air. What I read and my sixth sense are warring when it comes to him.

Do me a special favor and give me something a little more concrete than this.

Thanks.

I got nothing more concrete. I can start making shit up, but that won't help.

I spend lots of time overcoming my built-in bias I have towards players. This requires more reading than it does posting. I'll comment on stuff if I have anything, and will ask questions, but I ain't going for post count.

And if you want topical-
Haylen/GreyIce- The whole interaction means absolutely nothing. If I'm expected to believe that Grey can read post 72 and say Haylen is scum, it ain't going to happen. So, take out those 5 pages, and you got what I think right now.

[GreyICE]

So what do your teammates think?

I mean this is team mafia. You have three teammates. If you have nothing, what do they have? Have you asked them for help, because you've got nothing?

[Captain Murasa]

@Porochaz: Post the questions again and I'll answer them and do the specifics after I come home from school.

[PeregrineV]

So what do your teammates think?

I mean this is team mafia. You have three teammates. If you have nothing, what do they have? Have you asked them for help, because you've got nothing?

They got townreads they've shared about some players here. I'll use those, but after we've discussed it more.
No scumreads from them as of yet.

[Slaxx]

Reg and I finally got our reads together and here is what we have:

Town (S->W)

Grey, Jason, Glork, UN, Pere

Null

MoS, CoolDog, Poro, Captain, Delta, Iam

Scum (W->S)

Haylen

Grey: First of all, Grey is approaching the game with the same vigor he approached last year's PYP team mafia with as town. Secondly, his push and logic regarding Haylen is something we agree with.

Jason: This is all Reg's read and I'm trusting it. Reg says he likes the logic Jason went through to explain his captain scum read and likes the way he went about the vote. However:

Jason, reg wants you to explain why you called me town but then voted me a bit later. Also, I want to know why you completely ignored my response to you. Like I said, practically every post I made was about Grey's credibility toward the read.

Glork: His aggression and especially his fury regarding the out of game influences read as town, though they still aren't something I necessarily agree with.

UberNinja: Also Reg's read. He says his reaction to the Haylen wagon seemed genuine.

Pere: Him and I disagree here, but he says Pere's most recent post looks town and I tend agree now. The fact he is admitting to not having a lot makes us think he is at least slightly town, and Reg says less activity than normal is trademark of Pere regardless of alignment.

I'm not explaining the null reads because they pretty much add up to just not enough content or content we haven't really gotten vibes either way from. The scum read on Haylen comes from Grey's line of logic, moreso her reaction to him voting her than anything else.

[Slaxx]

Oh, also, Grey, Reg wants your read on IAm.

[Porochaz]

@Porochaz: Post the questions again and I'll answer them and do the specifics after I come home from school.

Nope. Need evidence you are reading the game.

[GreyICE]

Oh, also, Grey, Reg wants your read on IAm.

I had a gut town read.

MoI thinks he's playing a lot like he did in Strategy Mafia, and has a weak-moderate scum read.

Ignoring MoI would be stupid, and on reread my gut town read has essentially zero justification. So I don't really feel he's the lynch today, barring unforseen shit (the day is but young) but I'm paying attention.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Town - Scum

GreyICE - town Ice. Not the same feel as buffy, Team-mates agree town, and meta backs it up
Glork - Town Glork - seems to have thought out posts and cases
Haylen - town Haylen, had thought so from early stage and now backed up by Zach in team QT.
Porochaz - didnt like Poro start to the game, but has come into it a lot better since

iamausername - Null seems to be flying under the radar
Mastermind of Sin - Null need more content
DeltaWave - Null - seems to be flying under radar needs more
Uberninja - Capt is a scum read, so her buddying up to UN seemed wrong to me

PeregrineV - slight scum, but will list orange/null for now seems reluctant to comment/post.

Slaxx - weak wagon jumping to popular wagons.. seems to just coast along with votes without little care.
CooLDoG - seems to be skimming and not filly reading.. Shows this when attacking me claiming im pushing GrayIce as scum and lynch of meta.

Captain Murasa - started as gut, but progressed rapidly as it went along

.

Right now I really want to see more from PerV, MoS, Deltawave, they seem to be trying to skim under the radar. However are in the middle section of my reads as I feel the bottom 3 are worth looking at more.

vote:Captain Murasa

How did iamausername not make your list at the bottom? You marked him as "flying under the radar" and then didn't say you wanted to see more from him... What makes him so much different from PerV/MoS/Deltawave?

Also, I'm probably just going to sheep Glork until I feel like doing something else. I don't feel like voting though but I'll just agree with whatever he says cuz he's in the groove.

[Porochaz]

MoS, you do that, I vote for you.

Glork isn't playing his town game here.

[PeregrineV]

MoS, you do that, I vote for you.

Glork isn't playing his town game here.

Was there a particular post, or is this an overall thing?

[iamausername]

Over defensiveness is a scum tell. I don't think it can necessarily be applied here, but if one paragraph can refute an argument just as well as a 5 paragraph wall, use the one paragrapgh. Hold off all of the links if you are pressed. It makes the game easier to read and harder for scum to hide.

The explanation here sounds more like "overdefensiveness is counterproductive" than "overdefensiveness is a scumtell". When

can

overdefensiveness be applied as a scumtell?

Liking post 170 in general, CoolDog is making good points about UN. And this:

TA also thinks haylen is scummy, but hasn't given any specifics yet.

in post 171 strikes me as a strong town tell. Teammates of scum players would be a lot less likely to post 'reads' without explanation, and I don't see CooLDoG inventing this out of whole cloth.

Can somebody please explain how the fuck reading a player in ONE game translates to "I can read you like an open book"? Am I missing something here?

GreyICE's planet-sized ego, perhaps. Once upon a time I correctly identified Yos as scum in one game, and town in another, and for a while I was convinced that I could read him with total accuracy. A sample size of two is not a lot different from one, I don't have any trouble believing that GreyICE has an inflated sense of his ability to read Haylen.

This one gets me, because the answer should be obvious.
But Haylen isn't GIVING it.
"Because showing that your claimed 'read' is complete bullshit will convince people that you are scum with a fabricated 'meta,' and she is town."

But fucking NOBODY is saying that. NOBODY. Instead we have Slaxx and iamausername derping along going "HAY I AGREEZ" and not bothring to put a bit of fucking THOUGHT into any of this.

I'm not 'derping along without putting thought into this', I'm voting Haylen precisely BECAUSE she said nothing like what you suggest here.

Of course nobody besides Haylen is saying that, why the fuck would anyone else be offering suggestions to Haylen about what her motivation ought to be? Like, the first half of this quote is perfectly summarising the reason why Haylen is scummy here, and then you're yelling at me for agreeing with it? Huh?

Though I didn't read into it earlier (the whole skimming on my phone at work thing), a quick iso of iamusername reveals that Post 51 looks pretty bad. I never got the impression that UN expected someone to ask "why Grey." The rest of iamusernames's posts are pretty uninspiring.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone could vote someone "for not having posted yet" when that applied to three others without considering that someone would ask about that.

And if they did do that, for whatever reason, I do not believe by any stretch of the imagination that their response to the question would be to attack the person asking the question for "pointing out inconsistency in a random vote". If he voted GreyICE over the other non-posters for some shared history, or just picked a non-poster at random, or whatever, he'd have just answered the fucking question.

GreyICE's persistence with his pushing of his meta attack is starting to make me lean towards him being town. Jason is still making posts full of nothing though.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: JasonT

Also a lot of this went in and out of my head so I need to reread again. Man, I need to pay more attention

:bigredx:

You don't think jason is making posts full of nothing? That seemed like a pretty accurate assessment to me.

Position 1) GreyICE is scum! Who can't read me
Position 2) GreyICE is town! But really really stupid. Lemme scumplain about site meta
Position 3) There are at least two scum on my wagon!

3) hasn't got enough attention, frankly. Talking about the number of scum on your wagon without putting any effort towards identifying

who

on the wagon is scum is not scumhunting. It is an attempt to look like OMGUSing town that manages to be at once too specific and too general. It's too considered to be a straight up emotional reaction, and too vague to be a genuine attempt at hunting the scum on the wagon. If you're cogent enough to consider the number of scum that are pushing you, you are cogent enough to think about which players are pushing you in a scummy way.

If there are lots of posts that aren't saying anything, that gives me a feeling of scumminess.

But if there are very few posts saying nothing, that's A-OK?

That whole conversation seems strange, because how do you "convince something they can't read you." The whole game is about reads, and you can convince someone they are wrong in their reads, but not that they can't make reads. And the assumption that a specific person CAN'T get a read on another specific person just because they are that person makes about as much sense as the whole "I caught you as scum in game A, B, and C" thing.

I think you need to read post 147 again, because you are not even close to the point here.

Scum can't be convinced that their read is wrong, because they already know that their read is wrong, they're just pretending not to. Haylen was saying that GreyICE was scum, but also trying to convince him that his read was wrong. She

says

GreyICE is scum while acting like she

thinks

he is town. This is because she is knows GreyICE is town. This is because she is scum.

Understand?

I got nothing more concrete. I can start making shit up, but that won't help.

I spend lots of time overcoming my built-in bias I have towards players. This requires more reading than it does posting. I'll comment on stuff if I have anything, and will ask questions, but I ain't going for post count.

This feels town to me. I totally relate with the 'built-in bias' bit; I definitely had a bit of that going on with my initial resistance to the Haylen wagon. If Slaxx wasn't around to show me the light, I'm not sure I'd have got over my reluctance to side with GreyICE and UberNinja.

MoI thinks he's playing a lot like he did in Strategy Mafia, and has a weak-moderate scum read.

As far as I recall, I've been scum in every game I've played with MoI, so I would invite him to consider the possibility that this is affecting his read.