TM2012: Scummies 2011.5 - Let the credits roll!

[hitogoroshi]

I know some people like to look at the times people are active and lurkerhunt and shit based on that

Did you have anyone in particular in mind?

Not anyone in particular, but any

thing

in particular. To be honest I was sort of gut anticipating the thread having a surge in content because it was just going past early morning in the states when I went to bed and there's now a good deal to talk about. I knew no one would believe me if I said I was 'sleeping' at 5pm so I figured I'd mention it before it came in to play, just in case I woke up to three pages.

Hey T-Bone, anyone on your team reading the game?

Reck is probably town.

P.EDIT: Hey Minaday, let's have a Smooth Operator fight.

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 1, Votecount 4

Captain Ajax (4) - MagnaofIllusion, hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail

Quilford (1) - theamatuer
theamatuer (1) - Kublai Khan
Zar (1) - The Fonz
Gaoth (3) - Zar, T-Bone, BBmolla
hitogoroshi (1) - Captain Ajax

Not voting

(2) : Gaoth, xRECKONERx

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline:

21st of May at 11:50pm (EDT)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-05-21 23:50:00)

Countdown to the end of First Half Judging

: (expired on 2012-05-13 23:50:00)

[Quilford]

Also, why is Quilford ignoring theamatuer?

Uh... I'm not? He'd made two pretty inconsequential posts at the time of my last post. I hadn't really addressed anyone apart from Ajax and the other few people who asked me questions.

However his last post awoke an interest in him, one which I will address when I return home today.

[Captain Ajax]

What is this?

VOTE: Cpt. Ajax

BBmolla is town, Hito is townish, Reck and DeasVail are nullish, Ajax is scummy.

I could understand a randomish vote for me. But proclaiming all these reads based on a single post each? You were trying to sway the town awfully early.

snip

Hito: let's keep the judging groups secret. Not sure if it makes a difference, but the less the scum knows, the better.

Oh and I'd also like to point out that this is a super-scummy response and is totally informed scum trying to appear as uninformed town.

Let me ask you this, Quilford: what WOULD you have considered a protown response to hito? "Let's reveal the judging groups, let the scum know what's going on"? You're basically saying that ANY response to hito about revealing/not revealing judging groups would have been scummy. That's silly.

That's what I get for focusing on the give and take between Quilford and DeasVail. I missed the rest of the story.

Unvote

Vote: Quilford

I'm off to class. More later.

[xRECKONERx]

Mmmm quil did present you with no easy way to not be painted scummy but I think his motives are pure. His cases on you are diligent and earnest, even if I don't agree with them

Take off the hate blinders. If Quil is town who would be the scum on your wagon

[xRECKONERx]

Also quil me and hito both agree with letting the judging groups stay secret so why no votes on us

[xRECKONERx]

Oh cool my phone just ate a post about gaoth

Whatever I'll do it later when I'm home

[Captain Ajax]

Take off the hate blinders. If Quil is town who would be the scum on your wagon

Assuming that wasn't a rhetorical question (hard to tell on the internet):

If Quil is town, then I think the only scum on my wagon is hito. He was 3rd on my wagon when he was at 2, he made me the prime suspect and turned the heat off himself, etc etc. I haven't yet seen a reason to suspect MoI or DeasVail.

[The Fonz]

Right, let's go lurker hunting.

Unvote, Vote: theamatuer

And to elaborate: it's not just that he's not posting much, it's also that he pops in and delivers a one-liner relating to the game theory discussion. What does this tell me? A) He's reading the thread, B) His priority isn't scumhunting.

[DeasVail]

Quilford:

Have people called him out on it in other games? If so, then that'd be fine.

Theam:

What do you mean by me being biased? (Hito, I'm guessing?) I have buddied in the past as town and am probably less likely to do it as scum.

KK:

I prefer being scum.

Reck:

Wouldn't scum know which people are in groups that don't have a scum member in them?

Hito:

Why is reck probably town?

[T-Bone]

@ BB #66 - It's not that I expected someone to stand up and say "lalalalala I'm scum come get me", but behind the set-up discussion I was looking for some thread to pull on, and I couldn't come up with anything. Well that wasn't until Goeth anyway. I'm disappointed he hasn't posted more since his entry, though I'm not one to judge as of yet with 3 posts.

Looking over these pages I'm lost on the set-up discussion, and it's really distracting me, since set-up discussion in itself is null.

Hito #100 - I dunno maybe. They have their own games too. Our discussion is light atm. What about you?

I find Fonz to be town, Zar to be town, leaning Hito that way as well. I like Goeth as scum at it stands, and I like theamatuer as scum too. I know I'm posting infrequently, but I'm reading through the thread. Your just posting one liners and may or may not actually been reading. I'm not sure about Ajax, because I'd squirm if people called me scum early in the game too. I'll keep everyone else in the middle.


Ajax - Why are you picking Quil as the scum on your wagon? #86 you said you were 'satisfied' with him. 103 you voted him again, citing posts before your 86. What changed between 86 and 103...that you started quoting posts before 86 to change your read and vote him?

Thea - 88 what the heck is this exactly?

Deas - You said a teammate read Hito as town so you're dropping your scum read. Why are they reading him as town and you as scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m fielding reads from all my team-mates and will be presenting them in thread tomorrow when I have a bit more time to post. Work was a bitch today.

I will give a slight preview and say both Reck and Quil are pretty much sweep ‘Town’ reads so far and I myself agree.

--

My apologies. I guess this means I have no admissible evidence that I sometimes (as town) spend time during day 1 without voting.

So you were able to produce a link showing a grudge RVS vote from over 2 years ago and can’t find games from then showing said evidence?

I noticed one other thing: when you cast your vote for me, hito, we were tied for the most votes with 2 each. Your vote put me in the lead at 3. Looks like you were trying to take heat of yourself by making someone else the official bandwagon. I didn't think you deserved the heat at first, but now I wonder.

So you are basically dismissing all his concerns as some sort of OMGUS variant instead of actually addressing the content of what he posted regarding you?

I’m actually seeing this as a pattern now that you voted Quilford (who is painfully obv-Town which is another strike against you) for essentially the same basis.

Oh, by the way: I read Quilford's answers, and I'm satisfied with them. I'm sure that was understood, but I better make that explicit, or hito will probably jump on that too...

And you ding my scumdar again with the pre-emptive attempt to assert that any suspicion aimed at you is not warranted.

Let me ask you this, Quilford: what WOULD you have considered a protown response to hito? "Let's reveal the judging groups, let the scum know what's going on"? You're basically saying that ANY response to hito about revealing/not revealing judging groups would have been scummy. That's silly.

A ProTown response would have actually provided reasons other than saying “Oh, let’s totally not give scum info and stuff” which is what you did.

No consideration that the random assignment mechanic meant scum could possible know something about it already and consideration of what effect that would have on the process.

Nope just a “Hey look at me I’m Town for wanting to ‘Stick it to The Scum’ response” which I called Faux Town in my initial vote for you.

Which you ignored. Why not call me out on the same thing you are now calling Quilford out on?

Not that Fonz didn’t come riding to your defense.

--

Never have playd with Gaoth before so unsure what exactly to make of this entry. Am asking my team-mates for any insight.

--

They seem to be buddying each other quite obviously. This, I believe, is because exactly one of the two is scum: the scum wants the defense from the town, and it'll lead to incriminating evidence once the scum flips

I absolutely dislike setting up lynches on the prosect of Town flips.

Tell me TheAm – where did this game rank on your personal request list and do you like Town or Scum better?

--

Also, the idea that defending other players is inherently scummy is the most ridiculous thing I've read in relation to mafia in years.

See it’s non-scum hunting fluff like this that has you earning Scum reads in the QT left and right Fonz …

Right, let's go lurker hunting.

Unvote, Vote: theamatuer

And to elaborate: it's not just that he's not posting much, it's also that he pops in and delivers a one-liner relating to the game theory discussion. What does this tell me? A) He's reading the thread, B) His priority isn't scumhunting.

Oh let me see … Fonz is attacking objectively one of the newest and weakest players in the game? Yeah, that doesn’t sit right with me at all given how Town-Fonz (in hydra with Pappums in JasonT’s first Large Theme TV Game) ran right to the defense of new players when I pressured them.

I’d say this strikes me as a pretty transparent attempt to get some viable counterwagon to Ajax going.

--

Also, why is Quilford ignoring theamatuer?

Pop Quiz – why is Quilford the only one who should be drawing scrutiny for ‘ignoring’ TheAm?

[DeasVail]

Deas - You said a teammate read Hito as town so you're dropping your scum read. Why are they reading him as town and you as scum?

My teammate didn't give a reason, but I can see why hito would be read as town, and there are things I find town about him too. Why I've found him scummy has been stated in my posts.

Also, someone please explain the reck townread. Last time I thought he could be scum and everyone was going on about how he was town, he was actually scum, so I'm not going to just blindly follow people in regard to him.

[hitogoroshi]

Hito:

Why is reck probably town?

He raised a novel point on why not to claim groups he could have just as easily kept under his hat, and he gave a reason for a semi-V/LA but is still continually nipping at the game. Suggests someone who responsibly claimed they couldn't fully engage, but can't get the game out of their head. Scum can get games out of their head easy peasy.

Hito #100 - I dunno maybe. They have their own games too. Our discussion is light atm. What about you?

I think others are skimming, but I'm also not sure. I've got a lot of free time at the moment so I'm happy if they focus on their own games.

Since it's a little obvious anyway...I am a scummie judge, and I'm going to be my groups representative. Not claiming who or how many, but when I say "We're done" players in my judging group don't need to answer when we ask if every group is spoken for.

We are not currently done, although I suspect we will be soon.

[Captain Ajax]

T-Bone: I had only skimmed Quilford's posts before. Now I'm looking at them more carefully.

Vote: Reckoner

Obligatory, given what happened the last time we played together.

Hito: let's keep the judging groups secret. Not sure if it makes a difference, but the less the scum knows, the better.

First post links a previous game where Reck won as mafia over CA/TH, I regard this as a form of buddying. Consciously or not (and I don't think this makes a difference to his proposed alignment), by posting a link to that game and basing a vote off of it, CA/TH is flattering Reck.

What in my post made you think I was "flattering" Reckoner?

I also really don't like the defence of Hito. As I'm sure everyone's aware, scum LOVE to defend -- it gives them yummy brownie points from their defendant and to other players it makes them look like they're doing something. Nahhhh.

So, does that mean you think town people DON'T usually say "I think so-and-so is town"?

Going back to hito:

Unvote, Vote: Captain Ajax

(L-4)

We're still in the low pressure phase, and the idea of 'needing to ponder' instead of just instinctively switching (you would have put Quilford at what, L-5?), suggests a level of extreme fear about voting 'wrong'. Given that votes are very weak in terms of lynch power at this stage of the game, I'd only really expect to see that in a scumbag who's terrified of being outed.

Who do you think is scummier: someone who casts a vote at the slightest suggestion from someone else, or someone who actually takes some time to THINK before voting?

[Captain Ajax]

A ProTown response would have actually provided reasons other than saying “Oh, let’s totally not give scum info and stuff” which is what you did.

No consideration that the random assignment mechanic meant scum could possible know something about it already and consideration of what effect that would have on the process.

Nope just a “Hey look at me I’m Town for wanting to ‘Stick it to The Scum’ response” which I called Faux Town in my initial vote for you.

Which you ignored. Why not call me out on the same thing you are now calling Quilford out on?

I'm trying to read as carefully as possible during times when I am NOT working, or cleaning house, or whatever. Inevitably, I'm going to miss some things.

[Captain Ajax]

I noticed one other thing: when you cast your vote for me, hito, we were tied for the most votes with 2 each. Your vote put me in the lead at 3. Looks like you were trying to take heat of yourself by making someone else the official bandwagon. I didn't think you deserved the heat at first, but now I wonder.

So you are basically dismissing all his concerns as some sort of OMGUS variant instead of actually addressing the content of what he posted regarding you?

MoI, do you think the timing of hito's vote on me is suspect, or not?

[The Fonz]

Also, the idea that defending other players is inherently scummy is the most ridiculous thing I've read in relation to mafia in years.

See it’s non-scum hunting fluff like this that has you earning Scum reads in the QT left and right Fonz …

Player attacks another player on the basis that defending another player is 'something scum like to do.' I point out that the attack is based on bullshit. And that's 'Non-scumhunting fluff?' Pull the other one. Whether players' attacks on each other are justified or not is the very essence of content.

Oh let me see … Fonz is attacking objectively one of the newest and weakest players in the game? Yeah, that doesn’t sit right with me at all given how Town-Fonz (in hydra with Pappums in JasonT’s first Large Theme TV Game) ran right to the defense of new players when I pressured them.

I’d say this strikes me as a pretty transparent attempt to get some viable counterwagon to Ajax going.

Well, for starters, the wagon on Ajax is bullshit, so I have no problem with being labeled as 'counterwagoning' it.

Secondly, your characterization of my play in TV Mafia is off the mark. What I objected to was the fact that you jumped on a newbie straight away, and ramped up the pressure constantly, causing him to flail about and panic like nobody's business, and you never stopped to think 'Well hang on, isn't panicking and flailing under pressure a common newbie thing?' What I wanted to see was if that newbie would scumhunt when the pressure was turned down a little. I don't object to attacking weaker players in general, otherwise you'd never catch bad scum.

In this case (and I'll take your word for it that TheAm is a weak player, I've never played with him before... though your playing the newbie card on behalf of someone who's been on site nine months is noted) it's precisely the opposite of what you were doing there, where a newbie said something weird and you just rolled from there. Here, TheAmatuer was under basically no pressure, and chose not to scumhunt, and seemed, KK aside, to be getting away with it. That's not 'What a newbie does' it's 'What a scum does.' When I scumhunt, MOI, I look primarily for lack of town intent. That describes TheAmatuer best of everyone in the game.

It's noteworthy that your post contains no actual defence of TheAmatuer as playing in anything resembling a pro-town manner. Just the newbie card, and the sound of chainsaws revving so loudly you can hear it a mile away.

[The Fonz]

Check out

<link removed>

, where I just got killed (and I was town). I spent a good amount of day 1 scumhunting while voting for no one. If you think that's bad play, let's talk about it.

Oh yeah, one last thing before I turn in for the night: this troubles me. This isn't the kind of game where we're going to accept noob/VI 'I always do it' excuses. It's not our job to say why not voting is bad (although it is): it's yours to demonstrate that there is a pro-town thought process behind your behavior.

Why do you feel it is better for the town for you to not vote on D1?

[Trojan Horse]

You pointed out something I didn't notice. I wanted to think about it before voting. I thought that was the smart thing to do. The group obviously thinks otherwise.

[Captain Ajax]

You pointed out something I didn't notice. I wanted to think about it before voting. I thought that was the smart thing to do. The group obviously thinks otherwise.

Again! That's two! I can't stand it...

[Captain Ajax]

I've changed my Trojan Horse password to some random gibberish, and I've stored the random gibberish in a file, which I won't look at again until this game is over. That'll stop me.

[xRECKONERx]

Reck: Wouldn't scum know which people are in groups that don't have a scum member in them?

Uh... yes?

That doesn't change the fact that they don't know WHO are in the other groups.

We don't know if all the scum are in one group, two groups, or three different groups. It's a gamble to assume claiming gives them no additional information, when there's a very likely possibility that it

would

.

Don't like MoI calling me town, then not mentioning a single one of my posts or giving reasoning for me being seen as town. You think Ajax was pandering to me? This is pandering at its finest.

[Quilford]

What is this?

VOTE: Cpt. Ajax

BBmolla is town, Hito is townish, Reck and DeasVail are nullish, Ajax is scummy.

I could understand a randomish vote for me. But proclaiming all these reads based on a single post each? You were trying to sway the town awfully early.

T-Bone: I had only skimmed Quilford's posts before. Now I'm looking at them more carefully.

Oh, I think not. Had you been reading my posts more carefully, you would have noticed this:

Quilford why did my first post make me town?

Because gut. A while back I did the same thing in Animal Rescue: PetsPick (giving a gut read off of everyone's first post/s). Rather awesomely I got all my reads right (Lew and Sotty were town, Jason and VPB were scum, KK was the SK), so I've been trying to reproduce it in games since with varying degrees of success. Unfortunately, they may have ended up victim to the crash. Needless to say, I attempted something similar here.

in which I explain my motives for what I did in my first post. And your assertion that I was 'trying to sway the town awfully early' is total crock. There's no way anyone would be swayed by my reasonless reads a mere 15 posts into the game. And the votes reflect that. Another reason I posted a set of early reads is because when I did it in the previous game, one scum in particular reacted negatively to it. Here's his ISO.
This game, I was also looking for people who would stir up a fuss about my actions. History is repeating, it seems. (Also, your 'awfully' tic popped up again.)

snip

Hito: let's keep the judging groups secret. Not sure if it makes a difference, but the less the scum knows, the better.

Oh and I'd also like to point out that this is a super-scummy response and is totally informed scum trying to appear as uninformed town.

Let me ask you this, Quilford: what WOULD you have considered a protown response to hito? "Let's reveal the judging groups, let the scum know what's going on"? You're basically saying that ANY response to hito about revealing/not revealing judging groups would have been scummy. That's silly.

That's what I get for focusing on the give and take between Quilford and DeasVail. I missed the rest of the story.

Unvote

Vote: Quilford

I'm off to class. More later.

Did you just ask me a question, answer it yourself, and then pick arguments against me based on

your own answer

? That's ridiculous. Not to mention your answer is a massive strawman. Of course I wasn't suggesting that we 'reveal the judging groups' and 'let the scum know what's going on'. In the first place, what I was suggesting was that

your response was scummy

. It was scummy because you made an assertion ("let's keep the judging groups secret"), insisted on your uninformedness ("Not sure if it makes a difference") and then stated the obvious ("but the less the scum knows, the better"). This is you, as scum, trying to appear town.

In answer to your stupid question, there are

several responses

to hito's question that I did not object to, like hito's own statement, what BBmolla said, Kublai Khan's opinion, The Fonz's opinion, and MoI's comment. Jesus christ. At no point did I say that "ANY response to hito about revealing/not revealing judging groups would have been scummy". If that were the case, I would have scum reads or partial-scum reads on all of the players I just mentioned.

You're completely wrong.

Shut up and be lynched.

~

I'll discuss theamateur's actions in my next post.

[Quilford]

Actually, theamateur can wait.

~

Take off the hate blinders. If Quil is town who would be the scum on your wagon

Assuming that wasn't a rhetorical question (hard to tell on the internet):

If Quil is town, then I think the only scum on my wagon is hito. He was 3rd on my wagon when he was at 2, he made me the prime suspect and turned the heat off himself, etc etc. I haven't yet seen a reason to suspect MoI or DeasVail.

Can you elaborate on this reasoning? This all seems carefully vague (what do you even mean about "he was 3rd on my wagon when he was at 2" or "he made me the prime suspect"), and I'm willing to bet you have little or no additional reasoning, despite the air of confidence you attempt to lend your post with the 'etc etc'. I certainly wouldn't say hito turned the heat off himself. I'd say you turned the heat off hito. After all, DeasVail and I were both voting him.

T-Bone: I had only skimmed Quilford's posts before. Now I'm looking at them more carefully.

Vote: Reckoner

Obligatory, given what happened the last time we played together.

Hito: let's keep the judging groups secret. Not sure if it makes a difference, but the less the scum knows, the better.

First post links a previous game where Reck won as mafia over CA/TH, I regard this as a form of buddying. Consciously or not (and I don't think this makes a difference to his proposed alignment), by posting a link to that game and basing a vote off of it, CA/TH is flattering Reck.

What in my post made you think I was "flattering" Reckoner?

Yeah you know, the more you post the more I think your excuse "I had only skimmed Quilford's posts before. Now I'm looking at them more carefully." is just you figuring out that counterattacking is the only way for you to convincingly generate content. I don't think you've read my posts carefully at all. The answer to your question "What in my post made you think I was "flattering" Reckoner?" is right there in my post,

directly before 'CA/TH is flattering Reck.'

I also really don't like the defence of Hito. As I'm sure everyone's aware, scum LOVE to defend -- it gives them yummy brownie points from their defendant and to other players it makes them look like they're doing something. Nahhhh.

So, does that mean you think town people DON'T usually say "I think so-and-so is town"?

Again, you're setting up a strawman.

Saying "I think so-and-so is town" IS NOT defending that person.

Of course town players express town reads. Actively defending players is another thing altogether.

Once again I should note that all Captain Ajax has said and done this game is either fluff or in response to another player's inquiries. I can see no evidence of him forming original and noteworthy reads, nor can I see him forming opinions on things that aren't related to his troubles at hand.

All this makes him 100% scum. Fonz's assertion that

... the wagon on Ajax is bullshit, so I have no problem with being labeled as 'counterwagoning' it.

is oddly strong. Given how obviously scum Ajax is to me, I'm certainly interested in your reasons for why he's such a shit lynch.

~

Okay, theamateur next post. Fo' sho' this time.