TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Matias]

Haddock, I'm definitely pushing you. I'd just rather not lynch you immediately until all arguments are on the table for Day 2, plus, Shea hasn't even posted.

[Matias]

Final soon, but it's my last one. Will reply soonish, but it's mostly just terrible pinning of suspicion. I'm not sure if he forgot that my original argument against him was for taking my analysis of Zach as a personal attack on him.

I'm never opposed to analyzing others, though. I'm actually trying to figure out Johhog at the moment, mainly.

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.10

Captain Haddock (3) - Amrun, Bub Bidderskins, Matias
Thestatusquo (3) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez
Johhog (2) - Regfan, Benmage
Benmage (1) - Johhog
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Llamarble
Matias (1) - Captain Haddock

Not Voting (2) - SocioPath, Thestatusquo

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

[Zachrulez]

What does DDD think of Amrun, Zach?

Most of our back and forth in the QT so far has been agreement with my line of inquiry on Singer and support for my current scumreads. I made a note of the question in the QT and I'll let you know when he answers.

He just got back to me and he's seeing her play as artificial and disagrees with my read.

This came with a few caveats as he pointed out he read her wrong in the one game he could recall playing with her and that the artificial feeling he's getting from her appearing to try hard could be her actually trying harder because of last year's game.

That's the gist of it anyway.

[Amrun]

I know you're bad at reading me

, Regfan, but come the fuck on. lol

I just realized all the issues that I've had reading you ever has been based around games where I wasn't actually

in

the game but rather following on alongside (Winvitation + at least 10 or so others) but in the select 4-5 games I've played with you I don't think I've read you wrong, so where did you get the bolded from?

No, I said he wouldn't use it as a scum tactic. (I don't remember my exact wording, but that is what I meant.) I very specifically said several times that it isn't relevant to his alignment in my opinion.

Do you really think early day 1 townreads have to make sense together as a scumteam?

If he wouldn't use it as a scum tactic yet we know that he hasn't posted wouldn't that make him town? I really am not following your line of logic ending with it being a null-tell. Also can you rephrase your last line above because I don't understand it.

If you have time for that can you read my iso besides Matias' and comment? I even asked him his reason for voting CES and he didn't explain.

I'll re-look at it tomorrow when I wake up but be warned, even if you're right I don't think it'll change my mind. We have a strong meta town read on him.

I am specifically remembering the blowup from That One Game. You don't understand me as a person and my motivations when I post, so you clearly can't read me well. You can't have one without the other. You're not the only one.

Just like you still do not understand what I'm saying about TSQ. I'm saying specifically that I think he would do this as either alignment as a tactic, and that it's just a thing that happened and not a strategic move. That has nothing to do with him being town or scum.

What does DDD think of Amrun, Zach?

Most of our back and forth in the QT so far has been agreement with my line of inquiry on Singer and support for my current scumreads. I made a note of the question in the QT and I'll let you know when he answers.

He just got back to me and he's seeing her play as artificial and disagrees with my read.

This came with a few caveats as he pointed out he read her wrong in the one game he could recall playing with her and that the artificial feeling he's getting from her appearing to try hard could be her actually trying harder because of last year's game.

That's the gist of it anyway.

As much as reinforcing DDDP's scumread on me is probably stupid ... WHAT? I tried SO FUCKING HARD last year it's ridiculous. I'm not trying any harder this year. I am trying hard, but I usually do. This game does get a little extra dose of trying, but no more than last year's. I can't give more than I have. DDD isn't making sense. DDDP and I have played several games together - off of the top of my head, DH's C9++, which was a steamroll, and Winvitational, in which I definitely tried hard and don't remember him thinking I was scum, and last year's TM PYP, in which I do think he read me wrong. I suspected him as well (iirc) and died with an innocent on him. So what? What does that have to do with anything? Which of these games showed "less effort?"

[Amrun]

Oops.

@Regfan;

What I was trying to say in that last sentence you asked me about was this: Do you think scumreads in early game have to make sense as a scumread?

[Amrun]

-.- *as a scumteam

[Zachrulez]

He says in response to 254 that he had to actually check that you were actually in C9++ because he only remembers the streamrolling in that game, and in regards to Winvitational that he's been trying to repress all memory of that game. The game in question he says he read you incorrectly was Cold War Mafia, which you actually didn't mention, which was the one time the Amished tell didn't work for him.

And he clarified the trying hard point, which I was actually confused about. He said the point isn't that you don't try hard in other games, but that in general he finds pro-town play to be natural and effortless, and that in this particular game it feels to him as though you're working at what you're doing.

[Amrun]

Oh, I forgot about that one. He does realize I was literally playing myy first game ever on-site in cold War, right?

But okay, I guess I understand his point, I just don't see how or why he would think my posting isn't natural etc. I'm one of thoise fly by nose people even as scum, let alone as town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Winvitational, in which I definitely tried hard and don't remember him thinking I was scum

He thought you were town that game. (Which is why I asked.)

[Amrun]

Oh shit, also petspick, but he was scum that game, so.

[Llamarble]

Amrun has a really wide 'can fake this' range, so it is fairly hard to read her early.
She's a little squishier than usual but this is kind of a squishy game.

[Regfan]

He explained nothing. If you have the time try and read our ISO's quickly side by side.

Okay. Read through them. He did explain his reasoning for voting CES, that being that he thought CES's vote on Llarmable was an attempt to 'fit in' by scum. His reasoning for voting you is touched on in #58 where he states that he doesn't believe that you can have your stance if you've read all of his posts. To explain in more detail his #28 wasn't about getting reads from someone else on you so he could jump on but rather he noted a contradiction in Zachs logic and was questioning him about it; the contradiction being that Zach stated that he found 'avoiding bandwagons' which is what you do scummy but didn't have a scum read on you.

Long story short the entire reasoning you have behind suspecting Matias is based of a mis-understanding of his posts.

I am specifically remembering the blowup from That One Game. You don't understand me as a person and my motivations when I post, so you clearly can't read me well. You can't have one without the other. You're not the only one. Just like you still do not understand what I'm saying about TSQ. I'm saying specifically that I think he would do this as either alignment as a tactic, and that it's just a thing that happened and not a strategic move. That has nothing to do with him being town or scum.

I don't think you need to understand someone as a person to be able to read them in this game, if you needed to be able to understand a person to read them then reading a new-ish player or someone you haven't played with before would be near impossible but that's not true. I still think your TSQ thoughts make no sense and you're making less and less sense about it in our back and forths so contuining arguing about it won't get us anywhere.

What I was trying to say in that last sentence you asked me about was this: Do you think scumreads in early game have to make sense as a scumteam*

No, I don't think scum reads early game have to make sense as a scum-team. Though I am noting partnerships that are unlikely in the QT for later. This doesn't answer my earlier question though; How does everyone stating and fully explaining their reads hurt the town?

[Regfan]

Oh and Socio, we want all your teams reads on this game please and thank you.

[Amrun]

What I meant is that if you specifically always get confused about someone's motivations, then you are definitely going to have a hard time reading that person. I don't think I've ever - EVER - seen a post by you, about me, that was approaching anything near what I meant.

I asked about the scumteam thing because it seemed to me that you were criticizing Johhoq for suspecting both Matias and Haddock and I couldn't tell why that was an issue for you.

And my issue with explaining town reads in such detail - EXCEPT when it is vital in order to prevent that town member from being lynched - is long standing. A) It gives a map to scum for the NK. You addressed this earlier so I thought this was self-evident. Apologies. But there is a B) it allows scum to modify their behavior to engender town reads from the players they think that it is most strategically useful to engender town reads in. For example, if I said Player X is scummy because he's too passive, and Player Y is townish because she is so aggressive, Player X can try to act more aggressive to fit into my town reads.

[Amrun]

B is especially true in early game when everyone isn't fully established, I should note.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't think you need to understand someone as a person to be able to read them in this game, if you needed to be able to understand a person to read them then reading a new-ish player or someone you haven't played with before would be near impossible but that's not true. I still think your TSQ thoughts make no sense and you're making less and less sense about it in our back and forths so contuining arguing about it won't get us anywhere.

Amrun is making plenty of sense, so try again?

P.S. good town tells aren't easy to fake.

[Regfan]

I asked about the scumteam thing because it seemed to me that you were criticizing Johhoq for suspecting both Matias and Haddock and I couldn't tell why that was an issue for you.

And my issue with explaining town reads in such detail - EXCEPT when it is vital in order to prevent that town member from being lynched - is long standing. A) It gives a map to scum for the NK. You addressed this earlier so I thought this was self-evident. Apologies. But there is a B) it allows scum to modify their behavior to engender town reads from the players they think that it is most strategically useful to engender town reads in. For example, if I said Player X is scummy because he's too passive, and Player Y is townish because she is so aggressive, Player X can try to act more aggressive to fit into my town reads.

I find his suspicion of both of them an issue because he states no reasoning behind either read whatsoever and keeps his vote on a target that wasn't getting any heat from anyone else at all. It reads as attempting to set himself up to jump on either of them later on during the day.

Also sure, scum can find out what you treat as a town-tell but most players should already know what is and isn't treated as a town-tell before it's blatantly stated so. The hard part isn't working out what the town-tell is, the hard part is faking it genuinely and that's something that explaining reads won't stop.

Amrun is making plenty of sense, so try again?

I don't agree at all.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Amrun is making plenty of sense, so try again?

I don't agree at all.

That is not an option. Unless you think I'm just inventing stuff, I wouldn't be able to find the meaning in Amrun's posts if there wasn't any.

[Amrun]

Town tells aren't universal, Regfan.

[Benmage]

unvote vote CES

[Benmage]

Oh and Socio, we want all your teams reads on this game please and thank you.

I want none of Socio's teams reads.

[Amrun]

Oh and Socio, we want all your teams reads on this game please and thank you.

I want none of Socio's teams reads.

I do, though.

[singersigner]

Isa claims that he complained multiple times about the White Flag setup in the chat. Why would you lie Regfan?

And yeah, I want some firm reasons as to why I'm scum because I see next to none reasons even though several people read me as such.

FoS: Johhog

Fishing around for views on self instead of scum. This most is mainly just a defense asking for reasons why people think he's scum. Also, Johhog's vote has been parked on Benmage long passed its welcome. He's given no follow up pressure or reasoning behind his vote that I can see. His posts have mainly been weak questions without follow up or anything.

I agree with all of this post. But I still think Johhog's town.

Also not feeling Johhoq-scum, just Johhoq-useless.

Not voting TSQ just for not posting.

I don't like when people have an on site presence and ignore this game. I like the fact that he's posted in the team mafia thread while continuing to not post here even less.

A thousand times this. I question Amrun's resistance to voting for Shea simply because he's not posting in this thread. She's done her "research" before and I'm questioning why she didn't do it here.

I do remember that thread you're talking about. I take that to mean he just avoids threads regardless of alignment, though.

If TSQ continues to lurk for ANYTHING like a week, then yeah, we will probably just need to take care of that. But it's been like one or two days, and I'm not ready to lynch any lurkers yet.

Socio has posted what, once, and he's not getting any attention. It's too early for lurker lynches.

But it's not too early for pressure. Socio hasn't gotten any attention because he hasn't been active elsewhere (As far as I know), whereas Shea's been active both on and off the site.

The depressing thing though, is that we LOST last years White Flag mafia as well.
So may that as it may, I am not going to make the same mistakes twice.

Key plans for the future?

Hey, I listened. But no one listened to ME.

Yeah, the town just ate itself.

Let's not let that happen this time.

I'd like to point out that I totally pointed out mith's seriously scummy switch on me after calling me town. Just because I messed up...once I flipped, you should've paid attention to who capitalized on my lynch...just sayin...
/off topic
//no need to rehash old history

Well than, my initial reasoning for thinking you were town is no longer valid.

Who else is scum with you? I have an Amrun tingle.

(You didn't answer why I was scum btw)

What was your initial reason and why did it change?

Haddock, I'm definitely pushing you. I'd just rather not lynch you immediately until all arguments are on the table for Day 2, plus, Shea hasn't even posted.

This sounds a little forced...

Oh and Socio, we want all your teams reads on this game please and thank you.

I want none of Socio's teams reads.

Why not?

Other thoughts:
Hito and I find Socio's 204=forced.
I found Regfan's 217=town.
I found Captain Haddock's 219=scum, but I was reminded about the quickness of his wagon (unlikely on scum) so I'm gunna take a closer look at that first.
Hito thinks Matias, Regfan, and Amrun are town.
Nuwen and I are convinced there's scum in the nonvoters (oh hey look!).
(I also feel obligated to note that Shea hasn't been active in scumchat at ALL today...I'm taking that as a bad sign unless he can offer some other explanation)

[Bub Bidderskins]

Isa claims that he complained multiple times about the White Flag setup in the chat. Why would you lie Regfan?

And yeah, I want some firm reasons as to why I'm scum because I see next to none reasons even though several people read me as such.

FoS: Johhog

Fishing around for views on self instead of scum. This most is mainly just a defense asking for reasons why people think he's scum. Also, Johhog's vote has been parked on Benmage long passed its welcome. He's given no follow up pressure or reasoning behind his vote that I can see. His posts have mainly been weak questions without follow up or anything.

I agree with all of this post. But I still think Johhog's town.

Why?

Also, I'm re-reading Haddock right now, since others have stated townreads on him, I want to go back and re-evaluate my own opinion. Expect a wall soonish.