TM2012: Scummies 2011.5 - Let the credits roll!

[BBmolla]

Why do you refuse to acknowledge the content where I actually started to give two shits about this game

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 1, Votecount 9

Captain Ajax (4) - hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail, BBMolla

theamatuer (3) - Kublai Khan, The Fonz, Captain Ajax
Magua (2) - T-Bone, xRECKONERx
BBmolla (2) - theamatuer, Zar

Not voting

(2) : Magua, MagnaofIllusion

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or no-lynch.

MOI and Reck are V/la until Monday.

Deadline:

21st of May at 11:50pm (EDT)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-05-21 23:50:00)

Countdown to the end of First Half Judging

: (expired on 2012-05-13 23:50:00)

[hitogoroshi]

My scummies judging group has hammered the award and 4 of us confirmed voting for the same person. So unless there's 2-3 scum in my group, or scum have some secret powers, the award is being safely delivered to who we agreed on.

Also: BBMolla you suck, I was camping for top of the page

And not recks?
Wagon on me is meh.
Also, I've not been posting due to my sister stealing my computer for her homework, AP tests, and a overall laziness to post. Should have something up in an hour at the latest

This post is giving me really bad vibes, but MoI is right in that theam isn't scum with Ajax/Gaoth so for now I'm just tucking this away. But "If you're attacking me for X, you should attack Y too!" always sets me off a bit.

[Magua]

@Mod:

You should update the vote count to show that it's me being voted by T-Bone and Reckoner.

So, straw poll: Is it useful for me to read the first ten pages? y/n

[BBmolla]

Zar/Am:

Reads on players whose names don't start with the letter B.

Yes Magua.

[theamatuer]

I was talking about the mod's prod there, actually.
Yes. Magua. Read them

[The Fonz]

190s

I'm scum for voting the person you thought was scummy? Do you not see a problem here?

is scummy. He thinks that its okay to vote someone who most everyone thinks is scummy and no one should question him about it or something.
Thats what I found upon ISOing BBmolla.

No, that's not what he's saying. What he's saying is that if you are voting someone, then by definition you should think voting them is a *good thing.* Therefore, it's contradictory to attack someone else for voting the same person.

It's not true... you can be on a wagon and be uncomfortable with someone else on it due to the way they voted, or the timing of their vote, or whatever. However, it's not as unreasonable as 'I can't be scummy because I'm voting for someone everyone else thinks is scummy!' Being attacked by scum always means someone is at least

somewhat

more likely town.

Still, at least this bears some resemblance to content. Hey MOI, this is what I mean. When a poor player makes a shitty argument, I don't think that makes them scum, because that's what poor players do. When they don't offer arguments, that's when I find them suspect.

Gonna do a full re-read and try to look at players other than Ajax, Quilford, TheAm and MOI, because I feel like this argument with MOI has knocked me off my game (which I half-suspect was MOI's intention).

[The Fonz]

. But "If you're attacking me for X, you should attack Y too!" always sets me off a bit.

Good point I hadn't noticed. It's a cut-throat defence: that other people are doing what you're doing shouldn't matter, if you don't actually think what you're doing is scummy.

[hitogoroshi]

To be fair, theam's right that it was talking about the mod prod, and I shouldn't have phrased it as "if you're attacking" since of course the mod isn't attacking anyone. But the idea that the first thing you'd think of when prodded is "Who else hasn't posted?" just doesn't sit right with me, I guess.

[xRECKONERx]

@Quilford: Okay, I'm sorry for getting your posts confused. I'm keeping up with more games than I have in over a year right now (about 6-8) and a lot of them are starting to blur together. My Gaoth vote is based on the terrible first post and the fact that he's become a motherfucking GHOST since then. Troj is heading down the road to flailsville. I haven't read the case on him closely, to be completely honest. But he has vote hopped LIKE A BOSS every time he's received even the tiniest bit of pressure, but I don't know if that's inexperience/rust or just flat out scum play. I don't have a damn problem with his vote on theamatuer though. Someone used "tactical lurking" to describe him and yes, I like it.

@Kublai Khan: So, nothing? You said I scum slipped, waited for my reply, got it, then just let it go. Man the fuck up or go home.

Zar is the scummiest player in the game right now, bar none. I'll get up a case on him in a few days. I'm out of town still and dealing with a lot of shit exploding at once so I barely have time to just catch up on the games I'm in without melting down right now.

[xRECKONERx]

Also: Fate is yelling at me in our QT that my suspicions of MoI are misplaced. Among other things.

[Captain Ajax]

Looks like theamatuer missed my question. I'll try again.

theamatuer, what's your read right now on Zar? What about hito?

Actually, I think I need to detangle this mini-bandwagon on BBmolla. I'm finding Zar very hard to read right now. Let's take the same question I asked theamatuer and turn it around:

Zar, what's your read right now on theamatuer? What about hito?

[Kublai Khan]

Oh, so your stance that BB was scum was completely fabricated to get a reaction then?

I called BBmolla scum? Where?

Quil is obv-Town and your attempts to point to calling him uncovered scum as the ‘results’ of your scum-hunting pretty much shows why I think you are scum and not-scumhunting.

TheAm is meh as usual as bad players tend to be. That said you calling him scum, as pointed out above, makes him pretty likely Town at this stage in my read-book.

Ah, so you disagree with me and therefore I'm scum. Ok.

Well you didn’t act like a brain-damaged rabid wolverine to suspicion in Blackest Night so perhaps your playstyle isn’t as uniform as you might think …

You wound my pride, sir. My game-load was less then. I'm a little more scatter-brained right now. Too many games and too much player-overlap. Once one of the other games goes to night, then I'll give you the focused scum-hunting you're looking for.

[theamatuer]

There seems to be an "uncanny valley" when it comes to amount of content posted.

At an average level, it's a null tell. At Gaoth's level (nonexistent), it's a null tell.

At theamatuer's level (minimal), it's suspicious. Looks like he's avoiding getting too deep into the game.

Unvote

Vote: theamatuer

theamatuer, what's your read right now on Zar? What about hito?

Hito is town. Zar I have a null-town read on him

[The Fonz]

Actually, I think I need to detangle this mini-bandwagon on BBmolla.

Can you quickly clarify what you mean by 'detangle?'

[Zar]

Zar/Am:

Reads on players whose names don't start with the letter B.

On it. I'll have all my reads and revise my old ones when I get back home on Tuesday.

Also @Magua: you should read it.

[Zar]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p4041019]

Zar, what's your read right now on theamatuer? What about hito?[/quote]

While a big of hito's early content was mechanics speculation (which is typical scum trying to look busy behavior), I'm content with the level of scum-hunt and the post analysis he's provided so far. I have him as leaning town.

As for theam is difficult to evaluate, and strikes me as mostly as having a distracting gameplay. Johhog claims this is typical theam play, but I'm trying not to use a load of META to influence my reads. I prefer analyzing in game behavior and reactions to comments. I'm basing my current town read on him merely on his response to #151, I don't think a Mafia aligned player would admit to having listed a game as it's fifth preference + prefering to play scum.

[T-Bone]

First thing

Unvote

Well...seems a lot has changed. I was into a few ideas early but my little vacation has me a bit jumbled. All and all my top 2 reads are Theamatuer and Ajax. However both of them have the big wagons right now which makes me question it. I don't think both could be scum. With all the fuss that has focused on Ajax I expected that by the time I got back he'd either be lynched or someone else would be under fire. I guess my first question is, why hasn't Ajax been lynched yet?

MoI you were one of the more vocal pushers of this lynch, I must have missed the reason somewhere, what made you change your mind on that front?

I'm reading Fonz and BBmolla as my strongest town reads. In particular reading BB's 155 has made me feel pretty good on that front. I think I've mentioned before that I find Fonz to be town.

Everyone else I'm in the middle with.

Brings me back to Ajax and Teamatuer. I don't like either's ISOs. On one hand Ajax's posting hasn't been very good. One thing I picked out that I found scummy is #148. Ajax if you are town, you are the only 100% confirmed to yourself. I think at this point whether you 100% agreed or not, you should have been on the counterwagon at the time (goeth). For the simple fact that from a town point of view you have a 0% chance of being scum, but Goeth has a 25% of being scum. It looks like you were defending the counterwagon for town cred. I'd just have voted him in your position cause I know I'm 100% town and it's the one thing I am sure of. Ajax's ISO doesn't really get better with time. All of his posts are empty.

Theamtuer's ISO just plain confounds me. I still don't understand 88 and his follow up in 151 answers NOTHING and makes a shit vote on BBmolla that makes no sense. His ISO just gets worse as I read it. #188 'not to mention my teammates think you (BBmolla) are scummy'. find funny because YOU haven't mentioned it either. Perhaps we should be talking to them instead. It takes until 219 for Thea to explain his read. That's quite a long time to fabricate a read. Nothing about his posting gives me any town vibes. If these dueling bandwagons indicate that one is scum and one is town, I can kinda maybe see Ajax as town....I can't see Theamatuer at all.

Goeth got replaced so I'm interested in that too. Unfortunately a case can't be made on one empty post.

I think that covers what I needed to cover since my last post. I'm trying to get back into this so if I missed something uber important, point it out.

EDIT: So I looked at my team topic before I posted this and need to amend something MoS pointed out to me. I totally skipped a page on my re-read, since I went from new posts since my last (146). I forgot the entire page between my two posts which has this gem that I'm gonna quote, and MoS quoted a few posts later, and everyone then forgot about it looks like.

Oh, by the way:

I read Quilford's answers

, and I'm satisfied with them.

I'm sure that was understood, but I better make that explicit

, or hito will probably jump on that too...

T-Bone:

I had only skimmed Quilford's posts before

. Now I'm looking at them more carefully.

For those who like brevity, how you can look at this and think Ajax is not lying scum is beyond me.

I feel stupid for overlooking that. That was what I was getting at before I left.

Vote: Ajax

[Magua]

I've read.

Fonz is town, like, I would fakeclaim him as my mason partner town.

MagnaofIllusion is just the normal sort of town.

Quilford is also the normal sort of town.

My strongest scumread is hitogoroshi. Half of this is expected meta, and at least part of it is me drawing parallels to the play I saw in Metamafia[1] -- specifically, hito (who is, like me, a strong mechanics player) lobs it open with a question ("Should judges be secret?"), pokes at it a bit, but never goes deeper and never takes anything from it. It strikes me as more of a bone thrown to his own meta than actual thought.

Secondary example: hito thinks that the groups are divided 5, 5, 3 in #150, which would mean that the scum have perfect knowledge of who is in what group (they're in at least two, so would know who's in the third by omission if nothing else). But doesn't even raise his original point again or bring it back up. It's reactive, not proactive.

VOTE: hitogoroshi

On the wagons themselves, I feel that Ajax is town, and theamatuer is scum -- theamatuer is simply not as scummy as I'm finding hitogoroshi at the moment. For Ajax, though, even though Quilford is a large townread of mine, I think he's simply tunneling hardcore and people are taking advantage. I especially think that anyone who quotes 126 and thinks its an actual scumtell is bad and should feel bad. Oh, hi T-Bone.

[1] "Yo, dawg, I heard you like meta in your mafia, so we put meta in your mafia in your Metamafia so you can meta in your mafia with Metamafia while you...."

[T-Bone]

Oh hi Magua. I disagree. Between those two posts that Quil quoted (and I quoted) Quil didn't post but Ajax inexplicably changed his read anyway. If that's town I'll eat my sock or something. He was being pressured by MoI I think, so he changed his read to try and deflect the wagon.

If Theamatuer is also a scum read, he's got three votes, Hito has none, what is that vote accomplishing? That's a fairly empty use of your vote.

[Magua]

Oh hi Magua. I disagree. Between those two posts that Quil quoted (and I quoted) Quil didn't post but Ajax inexplicably changed his read anyway. If that's town I'll eat my sock or something. He was being pressured by MoI I think, so he changed his read to try and deflect the wagon.

The list of "Town would never do X => lynch player who did X => flip town" I've seen is so staggering that this doesn't even make the top 50. Going by your #242, the reason you're voting Ajax over theamatuer is the discrepancy in quotes Quilford shows in #126. That is a bad reason, and you should feel bad for voting Ajax based on it.

If you have other reasons for voting Ajax, I'm all ears, but, again #242 says, "Huh, these are both my strong scumreads, I don't think they're both scum, I can see Ajax being town, can't see theamatuer being town....Vote: Ajax" and the only reason for the Ajax vote given is that quote.

If Theamatuer is also a scum read, he's got three votes, Hito has none, what is that vote accomplishing? That's a fairly empty use of your vote.

It is accomplishing me voting my strongest scumread. With eight days until deadline, I feel that that is pretty much the opposite of an empty use of my vote.

[T-Bone]

For me it's a toss up and I feel that discrepancy is enough to tilt my vote in that direction. Neither player has inspired much confidence in me. I don't think a town Ajax would contradict himself in such fashion. A scum Ajax sure, he'll contradict himself if it means perhaps swaying people away from voting him. So that's my thought process there.

[Quilford]

The list of "Town would never do X => lynch player who did X => flip town" I've seen is so staggering that this doesn't even make the top 50.

You know that "Town would never do X => lynch player who did X => flip town" is the basis behind all non-policy lynches, right?

[Quilford]

Or mislynches, rather.

Catching up again. I told a little lie and said that my reads would come in the next post two posts back, but I forgot. They'll be next post for sure.

[Quilford]

Argh I feel like my wording is still confused.

'"Town would never do X => lynch player who did X' is the basis behind all lynches, period. The '=> flip town"' is just when people get it wrong. In this case, it'll be '=> flip scum', I assure you.