TM2012 - Closed Normal(Over!)

[Captain Murasa]

I still don't get why there is a wagon on Glork in the first place. I still think Glork is one of the towniest people in this game.

[GreyICE]

You are mistaking quality of play with alignment of play.

Glork is a better player than DeltaWave. 'tis true. But that influences the role PMs... well, I'd say not at all, but this is team mafia. High quality players are more likely to get scum PMs. Has Glork pushed Slaxx? No. Slaxx is a very good scum player who could easily be scum. Has Glork pushed me? No. I am a very good scum player who would be a good pick for my team to send in as scum. Has Glork voted Mastermind of Sin, who is utterly convinced that his scum play is indistinguishable from his town play (and seems to be trying to make his town play as terrible as possible to further that)? No. Has Glork voted Porochaz, who has been on this site for forever? No. Does he touch Haylen, who is nominated for Don Corleone, has been on this site for ages, and openly admits she prefers non-town roles? Only under duress, and then he hops off again immediately. I mean literally immediately.

Who has he pushed as scum?

Uberninja - joined December, 2011, voted "man or woman most likely to be lynched for irritating people." Has not commented on UberNinja's alignment since we all decided he's fairly clearly town. He wants that mislynch.
PeregrineV - voted "most likely to be mislynched without deliberately claiming scum or trolling the town by fakeclaiming."
Iamausername - Obvious town, the vote that makes the least sense in all of human history.
DeltaWave - I checked his last 10 games. He'd been mislynched in every one except the ones where he survived til endgame. His team would literally have to be on hardcore drugs to give him a scum PM.

Obviously a team could choose to give a scum PM to a weaker member. I'd say that's what happened with CooLDoG's team, but... [Bud Bidderskins, CooLDoG, mykonian, theamatuer]... I think they actually gave the scum PM to the strongest player on the team. Or at least one of the stronger ones.

Soooo, Glork basically is avoiding pushing ANYONE I read as scum, and to boot is avoiding pushing ANYONE who is an experienced player who might successfully push back. His votes look like a who is who of potential mislynches in this game.

Glork = scum. Ignore emotional tells and fervor with experienced players. Most any of us can fake it if we wish. Pay attention to motivation and quality. As I said last year "Oh my god! You do suck. And guess what? Sucking, from a strong player, is a scumtell."

[Captain Murasa]

Oh man, please don't start doing a Junpei on me (basing attacks based on whether or not you think the person in question got a scum PM.

Really, how can you be so sure that Glork's team gave him a scum PM?
Also hey, maybe DeltaWave has realised that he's been mislynched a lot lately and is using that to his advantage as scum?

[UberNinja]

Fucking delta wagon is a scum driven pile of junk and needs to die.

yeah that's what I just said lol

Who do you think is the scum on DeltaWave's wagon?

are you being serious right now

because if you are

oh god

[GreyICE]

Oh man, please don't start doing a Junpei on me (basing attacks based on whether or not you think the person in question got a scum PM.

Really, how can you be so sure that Glork's team gave him a scum PM?
Also hey, maybe DeltaWave has realised that he's been mislynched a lot lately and is using that to his advantage as scum?

But DeltaWave is NOT using it to his advantage! If DeltaWave had brought it up, I would have happily lynched him!

I brought it up. DeltaWave has never, ever mentioned it.

As for 'pulling a junpei' I don't even know what you mean. Look at last year's team mafia, for fucks sake. Scum was:

Hoopla, Faraday, Papa Zito, Llamarble, DrippingGoofball, Mith, Fugitive, Fate, Nachomamma8, Ythill, Swiftstrike, SingerSigner.

I mean which names on that list would you not expect to be scum? Llamarble, who was easily the strongest player on his team. Swiftstrike, on a team full of mediocre scum players. SingerSigner, on a team full of TERRIBLE scum players (cyberbob? Quadz? Servei?)

DO YOU THINK THIS IS FUCKING IRRELEVANT TO THIS YEAR?

[GreyICE]

Moreover, lets look at the teams, and who got scum PMs:

Evolution:

PranaDevil Chris B bristep

swiftstrike

-- 0 --

Ragnarök

Kise Thor 665

Nachomamma8

Iecerint -- 50 -- --

Radioactive Sparkly Kittens

Lady LambdaDelta

DrippingGoofball

esuriospiritus UncertainKitten -- 50 --

Screaming Death Clan

SpyreX SocioPath

Fate

XReckonerX -- 50 --

Punny Pony Party People

Faraday

Equinox hitogoroshi Mina -- 50 --

The Mauve Avengers

GreyICE InflatablePie

Fugitive

Katsuki -- 50 --

Team http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHpaX5af8xc

Hoopla mith

Yosarian2

Ythill

-- 50 --

The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse

Super Smash Bros. Fan

Llamarable

ConSpiracy animorpherv1 -- 50 --

Failboat on a river of blood

Papa Zito

LLamaFluff camn populartajo -- 50 --

Team Fra Fra

quadz08 Sevei Cyberbob

singersigner

-- 0 –

Even if we ignore team Youtube (where everyone was scum) you can still basically take a finger and point to the person most likely to be scum on a team and FUCKING NAIL IT.

Like 'who is going to be scum on SDC?' Oh right, Fate. Easy peasy. Who is going to be scum on kittens? Lessee, UK who hates scum, LLD who was much newer back then and still isn't a great scum player, Esurio, or DGB - one of the best scum players on this site? Who is going to be scum on the Pony team? Equinox, Hito-obv town-goroshi, or Mina "I spend most live mafia games uncontrollably giggling as scum." Or maybe Faraday. Is Failboat going to send Tajo (the man who flakes out of every scum slot on site) Camn who dislikes scum strongly and isn't very good at it, LlamaFluff who dislikes scum, or Papa Zito? Hmmm.

See what I mean? You basically could take a fair stab at nailing the scumteams from aiming at the goddamn team layouts.

Is it going to be different this year? Yeah, sure. People are learning the meta of team mafia. Still...

Go look at the first post in this thread:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3972192

Speculate.

[Captain Murasa]

The Junpei reference was based on Vanillaside where he attacked my hydra (me and DGB) for forming the hydra for the sole purpose being that DGB got a scum role PM.

Anyway, it's not just about how good they are, it's also about what they want.
I personally am not too good as mafia, however I like to play as mafia. I'm arguably better as town, but I find town boring. Which do you think I would have picked?

[GreyICE]

It depends. I mean first, did your team even get a scum PM? Second, would the team let you take a scum PM knowing that 25% of their score rides with you into the scum game? Y'see, this isn't CYS where the alignment of the players can be guessed based on meta. Not nearly so simple. First, it is based on a TEAM judgment of who will do best in the scum game (not an individual judgment of who wants the scum game) and second you might not even get a scum PM. Or, like Team Youtube, you might get 3.

Buuuuttt, for Glork to be attacking only people who I would have nailed as NOT getting a scum PM unless their team got 2+ (and in some cases 3 or 4), well that's not very good. For MoI to tell me that's what he likes to do as scum? Oh that's very not good. For him to be wagoning obvtown DeltaWave? Oh that's fucking horrible.

[Captain Murasa]

Let's put this into a hypothetical here. If given the option, do you think I would have taken the scum PM? Assuming my team didn't care which one I chose.

Also DeltaWave is totally not obvtown.

[GreyICE]

Let's put this into a hypothetical here. If given the option, do you think I would have taken the scum PM? Assuming my team didn't care which one I chose.

Also DeltaWave is totally not obvtown.

If you were given the option, I doubt you would have. You already said that you don't think your scumplay is very good. While for something like CYS this isn't a big deal (if you pick scum then get lynched, well, what was the other option? Pick town and have less fun?) for a team game you'd be worried about letting down your team. I don't think you'd want to let down your team.

And why is this about you anyway? Deltawave. Is. Obvtown.

We are not lynching DeltaWave today.

[Captain Murasa]

But also consider that by choosing scum I would be improving my scumplay.

See, there are also tons of factors you are leaving out. I don't think you can really judge someone's scumminess based on whether or not you think they decided to choose a scum PM.

Also this is about me because I'm using myself as an example, because I fit pretty well into what I'm trying to explain.


Why is DeltaWave obvtown?

[GreyICE]

Moreover, lets look at the teams, and who got scum PMs:

Evolution:

PranaDevil Chris B bristep

swiftstrike

-- 0 --

Ragnarök

Kise Thor 665

Nachomamma8

Iecerint -- 50 -- --

Radioactive Sparkly Kittens

Lady LambdaDelta

DrippingGoofball

esuriospiritus UncertainKitten -- 50 --

Screaming Death Clan

SpyreX SocioPath

Fate

XReckonerX -- 50 --

Punny Pony Party People

Faraday

Equinox hitogoroshi Mina -- 50 --

The Mauve Avengers

GreyICE InflatablePie

Fugitive

Katsuki -- 50 --

Team http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHpaX5af8xc

Hoopla mith

Yosarian2

Ythill

-- 50 --

The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse

Super Smash Bros. Fan

Llamarable

ConSpiracy animorpherv1 -- 50 --

Failboat on a river of blood

Papa Zito

LLamaFluff camn populartajo -- 50 --

Team Fra Fra

quadz08 Sevei Cyberbob

singersigner

-- 0 –

Murasa.

I repeat.

Look at this list.

Look at the list of scum from last year's team mafia.

Tell me the role assignment even APPROACHES random. Because it's not even fucking close.



Deltawave is obvtown because he doesn't give a shit about the votes on him and is still scumhunting.

Compare to Haylen.

Now put your fucking vote on Haylen, where it fucking belongs. Lets lynch scum today.

[Captain Murasa]

Are you so sure about Delta? To me it looks like he's more concerned with trying to paint the people on his wagon as scum.

Also again, you can't say for sure. There are tons of factors which go into deciding the role and alignment for Team Mafia. You really can't be definite about it.
If this is really what your argument is going to stay like, do you really think that Glork would have gone for a scum PM? If yes, why do you think that?

[UberNinja]

That's weird I thought GreyICE and I were the ones "painting" the DW wagoners as scum.

Vote Glork please.
I'm asking you as a captain of a ship, as a supermodel, AND as a semi-deranged squirrel.

[Glork]

Yes, Grey, if my team had gotten a scum role PM, they definitely would have taken literally one of the two or three best protown players in the history of mafia (who you even said earlier is a very mediocre scum player) out of the equation, in favor of forcing him to play an alignment that he hasn't had to exercise that skillset in well over a year. Makes perfect sense, strategically. Let's take our players OUT of where they are comfortable and instead set them up to fail. You're talking from both sides of the mouth here if you really think I'm scum.

I'll be completely frank. Aside from the Haylen situation (and only because it's a major reason CES thinks I should lynch her), I haven't considered who might have been given scum role PMs. Other than a quick jaunt through last year's White Flag a month or two ago, I also haven't really taken any significant time to look at anything from last year's Team Mafia either. It's looking like maybe I should.

But if you want to go down this path, Grey I have a serious question for you: Have you gone to look at Delta's scum games? I'll admit that I have not yet done so myself, but if he's been nothing but lynchfodder on D1 or in LyLo, wouldn't giving him a town role PM be tantamount to committing throwing a game?



In other news, I'm growing uncomfortable with how many people are sitting back and letting four or five of us do all the talking. I'd Delta winds up being town, I could totally see the scums sitting this one out and letting us rip each other a new one over and over again.

[Glork]

Deltawave is obvtown because he doesn't give a shit about the votes on him and is still scumhunting.

What kind of bizarro universe are you living in? He's

managed to get into

STARTED a mudslinging contest with everyone who has voted him (except MoS, who just did a little bit ago).

[GreyICE]

Yes, Grey, if my team had gotten a scum role PM, they definitely would have taken literally one of the two or three best protown players in the history of mafia (who you even said earlier is a very mediocre scum player) out of the equation, in favor of forcing him to play an alignment that he hasn't had to exercise that skillset in well over a year. Makes perfect sense, strategically. Let's take our players OUT of where they are comfortable and instead set them up to fail. You're talking from both sides of the mouth here if you really think I'm scum.

I'll be completely frank. Aside from the Haylen situation (and only because it's a major reason CES thinks I should lynch her), I haven't considered who might have been given scum role PMs. Other than a quick jaunt through last year's White Flag a month or two ago, I also haven't really taken any significant time to look at anything from last year's Team Mafia either. It's looking like maybe I should.

But if you want to go down this path, Grey I have a serious question for you: Have you gone to look at Delta's scum games? I'll admit that I have not yet done so myself, but if he's been nothing but lynchfodder on D1 or in LyLo, wouldn't giving him a town role PM be tantamount to committing throwing a game?

Nope! In point of fact, it's not a bad idea at all. First, this hopefully isn't just DeltaWave. It's DeltaWave + 3. For instance, JasonT1981 is not the strongest town player on the planet. But if he's town, it's Jason, Sotty7, Zachrulez, and Debonair Danny Dipietro feeding that slot. Feeding the slot reads, feeding the slot logic, feeding the slot reasoning. That's an improvement.

With luck, they're listening. Sure, you occasionally get the PeregrineVs of the world, but most people don't go into team mafia with the stated goal of totally ignoring their team.

Now Glork, you're apparently a big fan of meta. There is Glork slobber all over the throbbing metacock right now. Tons of it.

So, Glork, you never even checked DeltaWave's meta? Are you fucking serious?

Gay Mafia - Scum http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21301
Died day 4 (goddamn flavor)

Mini 1269 - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=19526
mislynched day 1

Mini 1252 - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=19211
Mislynched day 2

Mini 1248 - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=19143
Survived to endgame

Newbie 1149 - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=18773
Mislynched day 2

Open 337 - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=350
Survived to endgame

Pick your Poison - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=18785
Mislynched day 3

Orange Box (Dunno dun care, game made Blood Bowl look well designed)

Modern Family Mafia - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18943
Mislynched day 5

You see
Why
I hate you
Going after him
Captain "I SLOBBER ALL OVER AT THE SOUND OF THE WORD META" Glork?

[GreyICE]

Yes, Grey, if my team had gotten a scum role PM, they definitely would have taken literally one of the two or three best protown players in the history of mafia (who you even said earlier is a very mediocre scum player) out of the equation, in favor of forcing him to play an alignment that he hasn't had to exercise that skillset in well over a year. Makes perfect sense, strategically. Let's take our players OUT of where they are comfortable and instead set them up to fail. You're talking from both sides of the mouth here if you really think I'm scum.

I'll be completely frank. Aside from the Haylen situation (and only because it's a major reason CES thinks I should lynch her), I haven't considered who might have been given scum role PMs. Other than a quick jaunt through last year's White Flag a month or two ago, I also haven't really taken any significant time to look at anything from last year's Team Mafia either. It's looking like maybe I should.

But if you want to go down this path, Grey I have a serious question for you: Have you gone to look at Delta's scum games? I'll admit that I have not yet done so myself, but if he's been nothing but lynchfodder on D1 or in LyLo, wouldn't giving him a town role PM be tantamount to committing throwing a game?

Nope! In point of fact, it's not a bad idea at all. First, this hopefully isn't just DeltaWave. It's DeltaWave + 3. For instance, JasonT1981 is not the strongest town player on the planet. But if he's town, it's Jason, Sotty7, Zachrulez, and Debonair Danny Dipietro feeding that slot. Feeding the slot reads, feeding the slot logic, feeding the slot reasoning. That's an improvement.

With luck, they're listening. Sure, you occasionally get the PeregrineVs of the world, but most people don't go into team mafia with the stated goal of totally ignoring their team.

Now Glork, you're apparently a big fan of meta. There is Glork slobber all over the throbbing metacock right now. Tons of it.

So, Glork, you never even checked DeltaWave's meta? Are you fucking serious?

Gay Mafia - Scum http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21301
Died day 4 (goddamn flavor)

Mini 1269 - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=19526
mislynched day 1

Mini 1252 - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=19211
Mislynched day 2

Mini 1248 - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=19143
Survived to endgame

Newbie 1149 - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=18773
Mislynched day 2

Open 337 - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=350
Survived to endgame

Pick your Poison - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=18785
Mislynched day 3

Orange Box (Dunno dun care, game made Blood Bowl look well designed)

Modern Family Mafia - Town http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18943
Mislynched day 5

You see
Why
I hate you
Going after him
Captain "I SLOBBER ALL OVER AT THE SOUND OF THE WORD META" Glork?

[GreyICE]

I think that doublepost is a board error.

Was not intended -_-

[Glork]

Nope, I never sought out his meta. IDK if you've noticed in the, what... three? games we've played together since I came back (including this one), but I generally use it as a foil or confirmation of people who are on the fringe of my scumdar, so that I can get a better beat on. Delta's obvioulsy not in "fringe" territory for me. If I've played with them enough to already feel like I have a solid meta on them (Poro, MoS), or if they're obvoiusly protown (jason, Slaxx), or if they're dead center on my scumdar (Delta), I don't really feel a need to go back and confirm with meta. I asked for Haylen's games because I've been on the fence for her mostly. I don't go hunting for meta on people I feel I get a good read on. That seems counterproductive. Meta's more of a tool to tip the scales where I'm undecided or have an inkling that I want to explore.


I'm a little torn on the TM-scum-role-PM meta thing, though, as it relates to Delta specifically. I have exactly one game of experience each with Slandaar and DV, and neither of them struck me as people I'd want to give a scum role PM to. I have never played with Delta or 4nxi3ty before, so I can't say whether I'd want to give a scum role PM to either of them. I will also point out that Delta has yet to provide any of his teammates' insight whatsoever. I'm not sure there's a group-of-four scumhunting here, and I think you're well aware of that, which is why you chose to use Jason's team as an example, not Delta's very own team.

Looking at the list of names, you do make a point that Delta's not a great option for a scum role PM. But honestly, there really isn't a better option except *possibly* Slandaar (and even then, you have to admit that I had him dead to rights very quickly in Blood Bowl). I'll think about it.

[GreyICE]

Yeah okay, if you look at Almighty Lumberjacks and think he's the best choice you're basically confirmed scum.

[Glork]

Who's the better choice and why? And I'm actually asking this because I'd like to understand what I'm apparently missing here.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Nevermind, Team Mafia rules etc. Don't answer that.

[GreyICE]

DeusVail is actually a player I have quite a bit of respect for. I'd have set his arse on fire to see what flavor of smoke wafted out were he in this game, but he's not.

I mean look at this ISO: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Does that ISO say "We shall pin all our hopes and aspirations with a scum role PM on this player?"

Or does it say "HALP ABORT BRB JUMPING OUT OF PLANE"

P.S.


Subject: Team Mafia 2012

A number of players have asked me the policy on referring to player's team members in game threads.

You may do so only insofar as these are general thoughts on the team.

For example, "Zoraster loves to play scum, but Faraday, Vi and Cow hate it. If anyone's picking scum, it's probably him." Is fine. It doesn't reference any of the other games. It doesn't talk about what they're doing in their individual threads.

But "Zoraster loves to play scum, but Faraday, Vi and Cow hate it. Yet, Faraday is obv scum in his game, which probably means they had two roles" is UNACCEPTABLE because it speculates on a game in progress.

I'll put it another way: ask yourself whether you could have made the statement BEFORE the games began. If so, you're probably okay. If not, then you're probably in trouble.

As always, these restrictions don't apply to QTs where you're free to talk about almost whatever as it relates to Team Mafia.

So, BEFORE THE GAME BEGAN I'd pick DeusVail as scum over DeltaWave. Or anyone else on his team of dorks.

[Glork]

Grey, do you actually think I'm scum, or are you just trying to browbeat me into falling into line with you?