TM2012: Scummies 2011.5 - Let the credits roll!

[DeasVail]

Kublai Khan:

Did they say at the time why they thought you should ask for my alignment preference?

There's a reason why I think Zar is town, but I want to wait before revealing it.

MoI:

Just in case they turn out not to be pointless. Do you have a problem with that? .... That's a reasonable answer, but I do have a problem, because it still looks to me like it's purpose was to make yourself look more town, especially the inclusion of GreyIce giving vollkan (or whatever it was) points to me.

And Fonz gets a townpoint. I do disagree with the bad wagon thing though. I have seen scum lynched with the wagon being very ordinary.

Fonz:

Why do you lurker hunt?

Ok, if Zar's post voting for BBmolla was serious, then he's scummy, but saying BBmolla is lurky, probably can't come from scum. Can it?

[hitogoroshi]

My strongest scumread is hitogoroshi. Half of this is expected meta, and at least part of it is me drawing parallels to the play I saw in Metamafia[1] -- specifically, hito (who is, like me, a strong mechanics player) lobs it open with a question ("Should judges be secret?"), pokes at it a bit, but never goes deeper and never takes anything from it. It strikes me as more of a bone thrown to his own meta than actual thought.

I didn't go deeper because I didn't find anything substantial there. It was my guess:

Do we think there's merit to the judging groups being secret? I can't see anything that would really matter either way.

And as it turned out, it was mostly right. Reck raised a decent point for keeping them secret and that's where I fell, but scum can probably PoE em out unless they got all shoved into one group or it's not actually 5:5:3 so I wouldn't really mind claiming either. But it's very easy to claim them tomorrow if it matters, as well, so...doesn't really matter, either way.

Secondary example: hito thinks that the groups are divided 5, 5, 3 in #150, which would mean that the scum have perfect knowledge of who is in what group (they're in at least two, so would know who's in the third by omission if nothing else). But doesn't even raise his original point again or bring it back up. It's reactive, not proactive.

Alright, I'll play along: what do you think should have been brought back up? I learned that there's likely everyone in a judging group (was my guess, anyway), learned the likely distribution, and...what? It seems to have ended up as a wash, which happens sometimes looking at mechanics. But I seem to be your 'top scum read' for deciding that this wasn't worth pursuing.

In Metamafia, I focused on mechanics because I didn't want to engage with the game (because I'm typically obvious scum doing that). Here, I did a bit of mechanics speculation that didn't really pan out, and mostly focused on the game at large. Do you think I am not engaging with the game? Are their actions of mine you believe to be scum-motivated?

Also, why is Ajax town?

[hitogoroshi]

Are their actions of mine you believe to be scum-motivated?

Are *there* actions of mine you believe to be scum-motivated? Sorry, wrote that right as I was going out the door.

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 1, Votecount 10

Captain Ajax (5) - hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail, BBMolla, T-Bone

theamatuer (3) - Kublai Khan, The Fonz, Captain Ajax
Magua (1) - xRECKONERx
BBmolla (2) - theamatuer, Zar
hitogoroshi (1) - Magua

Not voting

(1) : MagnaofIllusion

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or no-lynch.

MOI and Reck are V/la until Monday.

Deadline:

21st of May at 11:50pm (EDT)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-05-21 23:50:00)

Countdown to the end of First Half Judging

: !!

[Magua]

@Quilford:

No, it's not the basis of every mislynch. The problem I have is someone saying, "Town would

never

do X." It's an argument to shut off any further critical thought. "Did someone do X? Town would never do X. Must be scum" and that's it; no more thought given to the topic. But I don't think there actually is any X for "Town would never do X" that makes it true. So it becomes a bad argument.

That's why I'm not pushing against the Ajax wagon, but I was pushing on T-Bone's reasons for joining it.

In Metamafia, I focused on mechanics because I didn't want to engage with the game (because I'm typically obvious scum doing that). Here, I did a bit of mechanics speculation that didn't really pan out, and mostly focused on the game at large. Do you think I am not engaging with the game? Are their actions of mine you believe to be scum-motivated?

I don't remember you 'focusing' on mechanics in Metamafia -- I remember the same thing I'm seeing here: a little light talk on the mechanics, some questions raised, and then nada. The similarities feel off.

I'll go ahead and say that you and I are in the same judging group because it'll stem a lot of awkwardness otherwise, but I really found what I read in the QT to be underwhelming. That there's the intent of appearing useful without actually being useful.

Also, why is Ajax town?

I find myself charmed when I see people declare that they don't want to vote for the slot that I'm replacing into.

[hitogoroshi]

In Metamafia, I focused on mechanics because I didn't want to engage with the game (because I'm typically obvious scum doing that). Here, I did a bit of mechanics speculation that didn't really pan out, and mostly focused on the game at large. Do you think I am not engaging with the game? Are their actions of mine you believe to be scum-motivated?

I don't remember you 'focusing' on mechanics in Metamafia -- I remember the same thing I'm seeing here: a little light talk on the mechanics, some questions raised, and then nada. The similarities feel off.

I'll go ahead and say that you and I are in the same judging group because it'll stem a lot of awkwardness otherwise, but I really found what I read in the QT to be underwhelming. That there's the intent of appearing useful without actually being useful.

Once again...what were you expecting? My spec didn't get anywhere. Turns out this is a mechanically shallow setup and there are no breaking strategies. (This is not an insult to Minaday - I'm sure mechanically shallow was the GOAL). If my spec is underwhelming, then I want to see your spec, or at least what you think setup speculation could accomplish here. I led the charge to pick the right award, made sure we all aimed at the same person. that is 100% of what needed to happen there, dude.

Also, why is Ajax town?

I find myself charmed when I see people declare that they don't want to vote for the slot that I'm replacing into.

This also applies to me, and as a matter of fact is applying to most everyone. Better reason for Ajax-town please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First off now that deadline for Judging has been reached –

VOTE: Captain Ajax

--

@Kublai Khan: So, nothing? You said I scum slipped, waited for my reply, got it, then just let it go. Man the fuck up or go home.

I still want to see KK’s response also BTW.

--

MoI: Just in case they turn out not to be pointless. Do you have a problem with that? .... That's a reasonable answer, but I do have a problem, because it still looks to me like it's purpose was to make yourself look more town, especially the inclusion of GreyIce giving vollkan (or whatever it was) points to me.

Feel free to think what you want. I don’t think you are likely scum at this point so making this a back and forth about this isn’t something I’m going to bother with.

--

Magua you make me sad with Post 243. I mean you couldn’t do better than buddying and convienently suspecting

1. The player calling you obv-scum with Ajax.
2. The worst player in the game.

Hito is correct and you are scum, huh?

I especially think that anyone who quotes 126 and thinks its an actual scumtell is bad and should feel bad.

Nope.jpg. Here's what went down ...

Scumbag Steve says "I read player I previously suspected and his answers in his posts satisfy me"
Scumbag Steve later says "I really have only skimmed player I previously suspected posts"

How you come to any conclusion other than "scum crafting fake-responses" if you are Town I totally need diagram. And flow-chart. And blood-alcohol tests that show you aren't heavily intoxicated when you wrote that post.

That's why I'm not pushing against the Ajax wagon, but I was pushing on T-Bone's reasons for joining it.

Why aren’t you pushing against the Ajax wagon? You called him Town and thus should be doing what Town-Magua does … ridiculing the wagon as stupid.

But you aren’t. You are doing your best to ignore it while calling him Town. Gut says you be scum bro!

--

I called BBmolla scum? Where?

Implicit in the “Player is dodging my question and thus I took the next step and voted them” is the concept that you have to think they are scummy for dodging said questions. Even if it is very early (as it was) there is no point in voting someone you don’t think is at least a bit scummy for dodging. If they were not scummy for dodging then your question probably isn’t something they should be addressing to being with. Do you disagree?

Ah, so you disagree with me and therefore I'm scum. Ok.

Yes, I disagree with you. I think your play indicates not Town scum-hunting but scum looking for mislynches. Do you often try to straw-man away suspicion like this?

You wound my pride, sir. My game-load was less then. I'm a little more scatter-brained right now. Too many games and too much player-overlap. Once one of the other games goes to night, then I'll give you the focused scum-hunting you're looking for.

If you are Town I apologize for wounding your pride. But I don’t think you are Town.

--

MoI you were one of the more vocal pushers of this lynch, I must have missed the reason somewhere, what made you change your mind on that front?

Well you didn’t miss me changing my mind since Ajax is scum. Are you wondering why I’m not voting him? You might have missed the post where I unvoted because I did not want him in easy “Self-Hammer and fuck over the Judging” range which L-2 was.

--

I made a specific comment on a specific attack that was a major plank of the case on the player who was at the centre of the discussion at the time. Anyone who was paying attention should have seen that.

See and this is why I have such trouble seeing you as Town this game.

1. That was hardly a “major plank” in why Ajax is scummy and stating such is completely disconnected from reality.
2. Why didn’t you make your specific comment in a post highlighting Quilford doing just that? What you did didn’t serve any Town purpose IMO.

It isn't, and I didn't say it is. I said it was a ridiculous position to hold. That doesn't mean that Quilford doesn't honestly hold it.

Basically you aren’t even calling it a scummy position just a ridiculous one. So my initial thought was correct – this is posting designed to look Town as opposed to find scum.

Sure, but you know, it's his first post. Saying ANYTHING relevant at all (and buddying is a reasonable thing to believe to be a scumtell) shows scumhunting motive.

We disagree then … KK’s first post was empty of any significant scum-hunting IMO. He made three points with his vote on TheAm and only one of them MIGHT be considered scum-hunting.

He asks why Quilford is ignoring TheAm and asks DV about his scum/town preferences. Now, I initially read his TheAm comment the same way you did: a slightly odd comment, given that few people were talking about TheAmatuer. But... given KK's elaboration in 133, the meaning of that comment became clear: he's accusing Quilford of treating two players differently for very similar behaviour. He's saying that believing that Captain Ajax was buddying reckoner by pointing out a game which Reck won as town, while not mentioning that TheAm went 'OMG RECK THE LEGEND!' which is a much more blatant piece of buddying (if you even accept that Ajax was buddying in the first place, which I don't) suggests a double standard. This double standard may suggest a scum connection to TheAmatuer. This is scumhunting. Later, he tries to rally people to an Amatuer wagon.

So his scum-hunting on TheAm is not direct but he’s drawing inferences that Quilford is scum for being inconsistent and you are applying applying transitive associations to suggest he’s scum-hunting TheAm via attacking Quilford and seeing connections. Given I have a solid Town read on Quilford and don’t think TheAm is scum at this stage this line of thinking I don’t find compelling myself. I see KK as having dropped a lazy vote on TheAm, asking vague questions, and then blowing up when he’s called scum.

This is untrue, and it's not a minor point. You can disagree with someone without thinking they're scum. I don't get the impression that Quilford is insincere in what he's saying, even though I think he's very, very wrong. He appears to be clearly making an effort to scumhunt. I'm leaning town on him.

So effectively you are looking to undermine Quilford because you think he is wrong even if you think he is Town. If this is correct and you are Town we definitely disagree on what Pro-Town play is.

No dispute here, but that's not the point I was making. You have not made any kind of argument in favour of TheAmatuer actually being town here. Instead, you've impugned my motives for attacking him. It makes me feel like you're trying to intimidate me out of scumhunting. I have come out and said that I think the accusations made against CA are bogus.

I don’t need to make an argument why TheAm is Town to observe that I find attacks made against him to be scummy.

Ajax is scum IMO. I disagree 100% with your stance and efforts to undermine those who think so (even if you don’t think they are scum). That’s why I find you slot suspect.

I find it really hard to see how you can possibly think I am playing completely different to how I did there. THEY ARE BASICALLY THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT. You might not buy that line of argument, in fact I'm sure you don't. But to claim that these two quotes show completely different thought processes? Come off it.

I will say that is probably true after having reviewed TV Mafia. You did push Zinger (who was also Town) strongly while castigating me for attacking Rodion. And we were both wrong. Pretty much my problem is that I think your stances are fairly stupid given your results and the high horse attitude you take pisses me off.

So let me amend my stance – your suspicion of the weakest player (TheAm) in the game is terrible and I find it something just as likely to come from scum wanting to get mislynches as to come from Town.

I find your posting of your team-mate's thoughts to be a strongly 'look town' rather than 'help town' move. If one of your team-mates makes a good point, by all means use it. But the impression I got off that long post was not that your team-mates had noticed things that were useful that you wanted to share, but that you were trying toprove that your team-mates were helping you scumhunt, ergo that you were genuinely scumhunting and therefore town. It felt very fake to me. Mind you, Iam notes that you always come across as fake to him. (He also makes a somewhat nuanced defence of you that I need to take a careful look at to see if I buy).

Well this is a ‘You’ problem then and probably ego-driven IMO.

[Magua]

I don't think we picked the right award at all. Your stance on why we picked what we picked seemed very much like, "Pick the least damaging thing," rather than "Pick the most useful thing." Given that we'd know who'd be receiving it, it could be controlled. Etc.

And my argument isn't that setup spec is required and has to pass muster, it's that the setup spec *you gave* was weak. Very, very, very much it reads like, "People expect me to do this, guess I better think of something."

Magua you make me sad with Post 243. I mean you couldn’t do better than buddying and convienently suspecting

1. The player calling you obv-scum with Ajax.
2. The worst player in the game.

Hito is correct and you are scum, huh?

Hi. I'm not reading your quote stripes this game. Just thought I'd let you know. Will happily read and respond to posts of yours that aren't line-by-line quotes and responses.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yup, you are scum. Read that.

[Magua]

Yup, you are scum. Read that.

I read this part, since it satisfied my criteria.

Feel slightly dumber for having read it, but there you go.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll probably be making a codified case on Ajax later today.

But in the meantime Magua's little back and forth with hito has reminded me of the followin -

We are mass claiming the Judging Groups tomorrow. We are only claiming the members of said groups but we are mass-claiming the Day 1 groups. PoE is a bitch for scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So why you should hammer Captain Ajax –

1. Faux Town-posting.

I’ve already gone over this several times.

Hito: let's keep the judging groups secret. Not sure if it makes a difference, but the less the scum knows, the better.

As already stated – this is very much Faux posting. He states what is an obvious Town stance “Let’s keep the group secret. I don’t know if it matters but the less scum knows the better”. No-one can disagree that keeping the groups secret TODAY is a good move.

Yet this post doesn’t actually contemplate the possible benefits of claiming all or a portion of the information from the groups later. The groups will be re-shuffled for Day 2 so there is no inherent disadvantage to claiming membership Day 2. So he’s presenting a Town front without showing any evidence of the thought process behind the post.

2. Lack of scum-hunting.

Just reading his ISO should clarify this. The highlights –

Post 29 – Lays out soft-suspicion that Deas and Quil are scummy for being ‘chat-roomy’. No reasoning every appears as to why this is scummy.

Post 38 – states that Quilford is scummier than Deas but doesn’t vote him while unvoting his Reck RVS. At this point Quilford had an RVS vote from BBMolla.

Post 84 – Votes for hito based on the reasoning that hito’s vote for him (making him the top wagon with 3 votes) was scum-motivated as it was meant to ‘distract’ from the 2-person wagon on Hito. As stated before the difference between 2 and 3 votes when the lynch threshold is 7 is mostly insignificant.

Post 86 and Post 103 – At 86 he states that Quilford’s answers to questions ‘satsified’ him. Yet the only posts he references in 103 as reasons for his vote for Quilford there are Post 15 and Post 69. Both of which were made before 86 where he previously stated that he had read Quilford’s posts and that he was again ‘satisfied’. Not very reasonable to assume that Ajax wasn’t saying Quilfords posting was not Town in Ajax’s 86.

Post 115 – I’ve already explained why this post indicates he isn’t scum-hunting but it bears repeating – when I call him out for not calling me scummy for taking the same action he called Quilford scum for (calling out post 6) his response is “Oh, I must have missed it”. No reply about me being scummy for that or reconsideration of his stance. He simply states he missed it and never revisits the issue.

Post 131 – Here he’s back to voting hito for the same reason as before (post 84) with no further reasons than before.

Post 194 – Now he’s voting TheAm who he has prior to this post given zero attention to. And for the reason he isn’t “getting too deep into the game”. He later states that the reason is TheAm’s vote on BBMolla and that TheAm’s response was inadequate. No reasoning why it is scummy. Just a vote.

3. Post 126.

As I posted earlier today this point made by Quilford is gold and I cannot be more clear – no-one has even attempted to offer a reason why this post comes from Town at all. Magua ducked the issue hiding behind “I’m not reading your posts” after saying “Anyone who thinks this is scummy should feel bad”. Again – no reason for Town to be saying “Oh I read his posts and am satisfied” and then later say “I only skimmed his posts”.

[theamatuer]

I agree with you on that, but Everyone needs to put in their secret votes in before the hammer.

@mod: what happens if a hammer is reached before a group can secret vote a majority?

I'd assume scum get to choose or something. Anyways, L-2 is enough for now

[Lost Butterfly]

As per the rules:

The eligible player with the most votes will win the category and be informed of his new role during twilight. We will use random.org to break a tie. You may abstain from voting, but if no one votes, then this award is also undecided.

[hitogoroshi]

MoI, your 261 looks like it needs a 3, and no one wants to play Hands Up If You See It with me, so: guess who's

never ever

had an explicit town-read?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, your 261 looks like it needs a 3, and no one wants to play Hands Up If You See It with me, so: guess who's never ever had an explicit town-read?

3 is there it just snuck in on the tail end where it was easy to miss

[hitogoroshi]

Meep. Number 4 then. .-.

[hitogoroshi]

Gotta admit though, it's pretty funny.

[Magua]

3. Post 126. As I posted earlier today this point made by Quilford is gold and I cannot be more clear – no-one has even attempted to offer a reason why this post comes from Town at all. Magua ducked the issue hiding behind “I’m not reading your posts” after saying “Anyone who thinks this is scummy should feel bad”. Again – no reason for Town to be saying “Oh I read his posts and am satisfied” and then later say “I only skimmed his posts”."

This one's simple. I don't actually believe that scumslips exist outside of newb-scum. But I've seen, repeatedly, over and over, town lynched for saying things that are patently stupid that everyone takes for a slip and goes aha. "There's no way town wouldn't read their Role PM," "There's no way town would vote a townread over a scumread," "There's no way town wouldn't hammer someone they thought was scum," etc. The argument is bad. I can continue to harp on why this argument is bad, but etc.

There's fine reasons to be voting Ajax. I think Quilford's town, Quilford's voting Ajax, I think you're town, you're voting Ajax. Etc. But voting Ajax *because of #126* is bad, end of story.

[Magua]

Given a choice between lynching Ajax and lynching theamatuer, I'd rather lynch theamatuer.
UNVOTE: hitogoroshi
VOTE: theamatuer

[MagnaofIllusion]

There's fine reasons to be voting Ajax. I think Quilford's town, Quilford's voting Ajax, I think you're town, you're voting Ajax. Etc. But voting Ajax *because of #126* is bad, end of story.

Yes Mr. Straw-man the only reason why people are voting Ajax is 126

Seriously you couldn't be fence-sitting any harder on this issue. There are tons of reason to vote him but you think he is Town. And the only reasons you mention (ignoring my wall of scummy actions by Ajax) is that Town is voting for him.

Vote him Magua! Bus him for Town cred! You can do it!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Given a choice between lynching Ajax and lynching theamatuer, I'd rather lynch theamatuer.
UNVOTE: hitogoroshi
VOTE: theamatuer

Counterwagon Go!!!!!!

[hitogoroshi]

If Theamatuer is also a scum read, he's got three votes, Hito has none, what is that vote accomplishing? That's a fairly empty use of your vote.

It is accomplishing me voting my strongest scumread. With eight days until deadline, I feel that that is pretty much the opposite of an empty use of my vote.

This was less than twelve hours ago. What changed?

[MagnaofIllusion]

This was less than twelve hours ago. What changed?

His scum-buddy hit L-1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Given a choice between lynching Ajax and lynching theamatuer, I'd rather lynch theamatuer.
UNVOTE: hitogoroshi
VOTE: theamatuer

Do you see this TheAm?

If you are Town then you are the target counter-wagon "save Ajax's ass" choice.