TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Amrun]

I don't actually want a full reads list, but I do want content, and don't act like you haven't openly ignored this game for a long time now. You owe us, and your teammates, quite a bit of content at this point.

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.19

Amrun (4) - Johhog, Captain Haddock, Regfan, Llamarble
Thestatusquo (3) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez
Captain Haddock (2) - Amrun, Bub Bidderskins
Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - Benmage, Thestatusquo
Johhog (1) - SocioPath

Not Voting (1) - Matias

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

[Thestatusquo]

that is true. But at the point I am incredibly behind, do to work, and I figured that just jumping in and starting to play would be better for both me and the town than waiting until I had had a chance to fully prepare my thoughts on the game. I'm here, I'm trying. I am sorry. I do think that ces making a comment like "shea lurks as scum." is something to look at because frankly, I think it's incredibly untrue, so I don't understand what basis he would have for such a claim unless he was inventing a case out of whole cloth to push on me.

[Matias]

A lot of people have said that, IIRC.

[Matias]

You aren't obligated to do anything, but contribution would be pretty nice and that's a start, seeing as how you're up on the chopping block and I can't read a damn thing from your lurking.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't see myself as up on the chopping block, and I am not planning on posting a read list, as I find them incredibly unhelpful to town, and very useful to scum. But, as I said, I am here and playing now. That should be enough considering the fact that I'm reasonably sure the votes on me are for lurking and I'm sure the votes on others are not.

[Thestatusquo]

Put another way: If I am being voted because I was lurking, and now I am not lurking, it makes no sense to continue voting me, since the genesis of the votes is no longer a relevant cause It is preferable to not lynch me here because now you have a chance to read me as opposed to lynching me blind. If my new content makes me seem suspicious to you, then thats a fine reason to vote me, but barring new suspicion, voting a player for lurking when they are no longer lurking makes no sense.

And I do want CES's comment explained, back to game relevant material.

[Matias]

Alright. If you say so. People are talking about lynching you; this isn't a non-serious wagon on you.

I offered a suggestion of a read list because it's easy for anyone to post and it gives us something to start with. I know how getting behind can feel. But if you can handle it, whatever. I just want to be able to have some content from you because you have my wracking my brain by simply not doing anything.

[Matias]

This shouldn't be an issue now, so whatevs. I should be getting sleep.

For the record: My teammates are posting reads, but not everyone has finished. I'll relay them when they finish.

[Thestatusquo]

I am aware its not a non-serious wagon. I just think that as long as I remain here and continue to post content that it should not remain a serious wagon. Surely there are better candidates to lynch than someone who just got caught up in the real world for a little bit.

[Amrun]

I am kind of concerned that when I asked CES why he said TSQ lurked as scum, his answer wasn't actually based in relevant experience.

[Amrun]

In other news: my team and I are pretty on board with similar town reads, and that's awesome.

Kublai Kahn thinks Sociopath's noncontribution is bullshit and he deserves to be lynched for it, or voted until he stops.

[Regfan]

What is there to answer? Those are stupid side snipes that mean nothing.

The 'snipes' don't mean nothing and had he not asked you 'who' you were referring to when you said 5 or so other players have done the same thing as you regarding being very active but not stating scum reads I would have asked it. I do want it answered.

I do think that ces making a comment like "shea lurks as scum." is something to look at because frankly, I think it's incredibly untrue, so I don't understand what basis he would have for such a claim unless he was inventing a case out of whole cloth to push on me.

Okay, I get it he stated that you lurk as scum and you don't think you do. That means very little to me, you don't have to post an entire reads list from town-> scum (Though I do think everyone doing so is actually optimal play but that's something for MD not here) but I do want to see a fuckload more content and reads from you.

Also I've narrowed down the pool of people I think are possibly scum to [Amrun, TSQ, Zach, Socio, Llarmable].

[Amrun]

I didn't really consider "very active" as part of the bargain. But still, then, we'll throw out TSQ, and even Sociopath, who is not "very" active. Johhoq came to mind - one scum read, Ben, no reasoning at all that I remember, which shows how good it was. singer - only TSQ, and literally only for lurking, while she has not been so active herself. Matias keeps withdrawing his scumreads and I've no real notion of who he actually thinks is scum right now. Captain Haddock himself as literally the exact same amount of stated suspicions as I do - and until he "suspected" me, he had one less.

I have a larger scum pool due to PoE, but night kills, especially the N1 nightkill, played a very vital role in last year's White Flag. I don't see any benefit in unveiling it at this time, and I won't do it, even if asked, except to my own teammates, ofc, who already know all of my townreads and overall agree, with a couple of exceptions, and have no strong conviction that anyone else is scum that I haven't noted in thread.

We've all noted the same team - this game, people are playing very defensively and close to the chest. No one is doing anything at all, really. It makes the game fairly opaque, for now. This is when I usually shake things up, but I haven't thought of a good angle that someone won't get immediately and therefore ruin the value of, with all these eyes on board.

[Amrun]

*all noted the same thing

[Thestatusquo]

What is there to answer? Those are stupid side snipes that mean nothing.

The 'snipes' don't mean nothing and had he not asked you 'who' you were referring to when you said 5 or so other players have done the same thing as you regarding being very active but not stating scum reads I would have asked it. I do want it answered.

I do think that ces making a comment like "shea lurks as scum." is something to look at because frankly, I think it's incredibly untrue, so I don't understand what basis he would have for such a claim unless he was inventing a case out of whole cloth to push on me.

Okay, I get it he stated that you lurk as scum and you don't think you do. That means very little to me, you don't have to post an entire reads list from town-> scum (Though I do think everyone doing so is actually optimal play but that's something for MD not here) but I do want to see a fuckload more content and reads from you.

Also I've narrowed down the pool of people I think are possibly scum to [Amrun, TSQ, Zach, Socio, Llarmable].

How can you possibly narrow down to just 5 possible subjects in 20 pages? You either are the most fantastic scum hunter that ever lived, or you are willfully blinding yourself to other possibilities. I understand the sentiment of, say "I am willing to lynch any of these X people today because I find them the most suspicious." but that's not the way you parsed it, and furthermore, your "list of people who could possibly be scum." seems to oddly parallel those that have been found suspicious of others.


Tell me this, if you have concluded that the people who are possibly scum are in that list of 5 people, then what caused you to discount the other 7 people? Why can't they be scum?

[Thestatusquo]

"by others" not "of others."

Late...

[Amrun]

I'm a little confused. Was that directed to me?

Because those weren't my suspects. They were an answer to "five active people that don't have a lot of stated suspicion."

[Thestatusquo]

imo amrun is pretty clearly town, by the way.

It was not directed to you. It was directed to the person who just said he had deduced that the scum were among 5 possible people, oddly enough.

[Thestatusquo]

ffs, amrun, I even quoted the post I was responding to.... *facepalm*

[Amrun]

I know, but I thought you were referring to the top part when you were actually referring to the bottom.

Nothing to see here, move along. >.>

[Thestatusquo]

Well, you could comment on it instead of ignoring it, now that you've figured out what I'm talking about.

[Amrun]

Well, I think his pool of scum is likely to be more wrong than right, and I know at least one is wrong.

But I can't argue that it's impossible.

I had actually pegged the scumteam by this time in last year's White Flag. Now, at this point, I didn't actually know that I had pegged the scumteam. A teammate was playing this game at the time, and I was posting the entire playerlist from town->scum in the QT as I followed along because I was particularly interested in the game. My top 3 never shifted, but the rest went all over the place. My top 3 were all scum.

I think this can be a somewhat useful tool in early game, but not late game, when associative tells become important.

I'm going to do it for our whole team's games when I get the time, but I haven't had it yet. I've been finishing finals and moving home, etc. First day home was today.

That's a really long answer that tells you a couple of things... a) I'm really tired and rambling, b) I think there is nothing inherently wrong with that number of reads. Mine is similar in number.

That comes along with the understanding that these reads are flexible and should change as more information comes to light. Even though I have a large number of townreads, only one of them is something that is strong enough to carry to late game, and even that is a rarity.

[Regfan]

I didn't really consider "very active" as part of the bargain. But still, then, we'll throw out TSQ, and even Sociopath, who is not "very" active. Johhoq came to mind - one scum read, Ben, no reasoning at all that I remember, which shows how good it was. singer - only TSQ, and literally only for lurking, while she has not been so active herself. Matias keeps withdrawing his scumreads and I've no real notion of who he actually thinks is scum right now. Captain Haddock himself as literally the exact same amount of stated suspicions as I do - and until he "suspected" me, he had one less.

Johhogs not active, nor is Benmage. While Haddock only stated suspicion of Matias before you being 'one' person, he constantly re-stated and explained his read which isn't something you did. Matias I don't remember exactly about but he's also been lesser active, as has Singer.

How can you possibly narrow down to just 5 possible subjects in 20 pages? You either are the most fantastic scum hunter that ever lived, or you are willfully blinding yourself to other possibilities. I understand the sentiment of, say "I am willing to lynch any of these X people today because I find them the most suspicious." but that's not the way you parsed it, and furthermore, your "list of people who could possibly be scum." seems to oddly parallel those that have been found suspicious of others. Tell me this, if you have concluded that the people who are possibly scum are in that list of 5 people, then what caused you to discount the other 7 people? Why can't they be scum?

Sure;

1) Johhog is town via the meta-information that I found; that he strongly strongly prefers town and finds that he is a weak scum player. It might be nullified and 'wifom' brought into it had he mentioned the point himself however he never stated anything of the sort. Also I worked out what the whole Isa/white flag ect. thing has to do with and with that line of reasoning I no longer find his 'why lie for' statement as scummy and in fact find his 'finding me scummy for outside of game shit and i'll rage at you post game' as a town-tell. His change of vote and lesser activity seems to match his town player in the games I looked through and as scum he seems to attempt to post more.

2) Matias is town via a strong meta read that my team, specifically Slaxx has on him (Slaxx thinks he can read DH like a book) and Matias entire reaction towards the Haddock angle and his questioning of Zach/throwing himself into the limelight early game resembles his town play and reads as a strong town tell. Furthermore I really like the snippets of his teams QT that's been shared and overall I'd be shocked if he were scum.

3) Bubs case on Haddock reads like he genuinely believes it and his 'happiness' with himself after thinking he nailed a CES-Haddock connection in his massive quote wall cases read as a town-tell. Also similarly to Matias the comments that he's echoed from his teams QT read as a town-tells.

4) Haddock is a different sort of read. While I can see how his initial attack on Matias may be perceived as scummy I personally don't find it to be a scum-tell, I've seen newer/less experienced players react towards something like Matias did in that fashion as town before. I also think the way he threw himself into the midst of everything was town. Also liked him pointing out the Amrun doing little regarding scum-reads as it was something I was going to point out myself. Also when it comes to unlikely partnerships I have him ruled out with the most people in my QT. Don't see him as scum with Matias, Amrun, Johhog, Bub and Llarmable.

5) I like singers reaction towards the whole Matias initial incident. I also don't think she'd take a scum role after what happened last year, especially a scum role in White Flag. Also while her activity dropped I've liked a lot of what s he's saying.

6 and 7) CES and Benmage are shakier town-reads and I'll admit that I might be wrong about one of them but at this point I'm comfortable keeping them outside of the scum-pool. Although the whole 'consistency is a scum-tell and CES has been consistent' I really liked his list of reads that he did in brackets and also find a lot of his reads agree and line up with mine. Benmage is admittedly partially 'gut' based alongside with me liking his comment about why he'd take town.

[Regfan]

I've shown you mine, now show me yours

Okay. So can you explain your 'obvtown' read on Amrun for me as well as stating any other reads that you'd consider 'strong'.