TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.22

Amrun (3) - Johhog, Captain Haddock, Regfan
Cogito Ergo Sum (3) - Benmage, Thestatusquo, Llamarble
Johhog (3) - SocioPath, Matias, Bub Bidderskins
Thestatusquo (3) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez
Captain Haddock (1) - Amrun

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

[Thestatusquo]

Singer, what in your mind distinguishes johoqs position on me from yours? This isnt a trap question, I'm honestly interested in the answer.

[Regfan]

She was scummy before the comment and one person was voting for her. She was scummy after the comment, and four people are voting for her for stuff she did before the comment. Do you see the problem I have with this wagon? All those reasons could have been used earlier but they weren't, because Amrun wasn't a convenient wagon then.

Okay, this is idiotic. No one and I mean no one who voted Amrun voted her even partially because of 'any specific comment' yet you INSIST that it's the case. Sure, some of the reasons for voting her could have been used to vote her earlier but that doesn't negate the strength or validity of them been put forward later, nor does it make the votes that followed it suspicious in any way.

Can someone please explain to me why teammate-meta says Johhog is town?

That's 100% WIFOM and definitely not reason enough to call somebody town. There are many reasons why somebody would end up with scum when they wanted town or vice versa.

It'd be WIFOM had he brought it up himself, he hasn't. He hasn't once attempted to mention that he prefers town. Not just that but I was hoping not to go into it in full detail earlier but I will now. I think the whole Isa/whiteflag debacle was that Isa preferred White Flag but Johhog sucks as scum/Isa is better as scum and had to take a scum role elsewhere leaving Johhog taking a town role in this game. There's also non-meta reasons that I think Johhog is town and I've explained those.

I don't see this 'backtrack' thing that you two say he's doing. He hasn't once stated a weakened read on Amrun and is content with his vote on her; having a secondary FoS if the wagon were to fall apart isn't a scum-tell and his reasoning re; tsq isn't that bad. I've found TSQ"s contribution and posts since actually arriving here to be garbage and trash.

I've made three pretty definitive stances, so far. I think thats pretty good for now 2 days of activity. I'm not saying I've climbed out of the hole yet, but I think saying I'm not contributing and focusing only on myself is more than a little unfair. You missed the post where I declared amrun town, and the post where I attacked ces (in fact, a couple of them)

No, your contribution has been piss-weak since returning and you've spend about 20 times the amount of time insisting that your lurking is a null tell rather than actually jumping into the game and spending that time catching up and scumhunting. Your reasoning behind suspecting and voting CES is weak and only revolves around 1 comment of his and your 'obvtown' read on Amrun is something I've asked for you to explain and you haven't even stated a single word behind the reasoning of it. I cannot find this third definitive stance that you've taken either.

[Thestatusquo]

go ahead and vote me, then, bro. One of the fundamental rules of mafia is that when one is attacked, one defends themselves. If you keep attacking me, I will keep defending myself. I have made several comments which you attempt to paint as "piss poor." or "weak" but they are scum hunting.

My primary focus is staying alive, at this point. As any player, town or scum, would want to do. If I keep getting attacked for lurking, I will keep defending myself on the issue. That's how the game works. Seeing as I am no longer lurking, the attack seems stupid to me, but I've been lynched for dumber things before, so I am paying it due attention. I am happy with my vote, because ces's insistence that I am scum based on shitty reasoning (he lurks as scum!) is bizarre. CES is a much more cerebral player than that. He (and you) can't possibly have enough info on my actions to have a firm read on me one way or the other. Therefore, it is odd and worth noting that he keeps pushing.

Amruns thing is a meta thing. If you'd really like me to divulge it you're going to need a particularly good reason for me to do so (i.e. she's about to get lynched) since I don't give up such information lightly.

[Thestatusquo]

I am also fairly confident that mattias is town. Gut read. I like his posts, and almost every one of them is one I would make myself.

[Regfan]

go ahead and vote me, then, bro. One of the fundamental rules of mafia is that when one is attacked, one defends themselves. If you keep attacking me, I will keep defending myself. I have made several comments which you attempt to paint as "piss poor." or "weak" but they are scum hunting.

My primary focus is staying alive, at this point. As any player, town or scum, would want to do. If I keep getting attacked for lurking, I will keep defending myself on the issue. That's how the game works. Seeing as I am no longer lurking, the attack seems stupid to me, but I've been lynched for dumber things before, so I am paying it due attention. I am happy with my vote, because ces's insistence that I am scum based on shitty reasoning (he lurks as scum!) is bizarre. CES is a much more cerebral player than that. He (and you) can't possibly have enough info on my actions to have a firm read on me one way or the other. Therefore, it is odd and worth noting that he keeps pushing.

Amruns thing is a meta thing. If you'd really like me to divulge it you're going to need a particularly good reason for me to do so (i.e. she's about to get lynched) since I don't give up such information lightly.

1) I'm happy where my vote is right now and I'd rather vote Llarmable than you at the moment.

2) People are attacking you because you've yet to show a decent amount of actual scumhunting. So don't just stand there and repeat 'prove to me i lurk as scum or else your arguments are weak' instead read the entire fucking thread and then state some reads and analysis. That'll get people of your back.

3) I don't understand everyone wanting to hold their 'meta' information close to their chest. The more you share, the better everyone can read her/you from.

[Thestatusquo]

1) Fair point.

2) Also a fair point, though I think you're underselling how much I've contributed. I think theres a tad bit of confirmation bias which is causing your discount the things I've done.

3) In general it is correct with information, with meta information I would prefer not to share it insofar as I want to be able to read amrun in future games I play with her. If she is aware of tendencies that she is, as of right now, unaware of, then she will be able to avoid doing these things that make me think she's town, and therefore my play with her will suffer in the future. I am willing to say what I've got if it prevents her lynch, but if theres any other option I'd prefer not to.

[Amrun]

He hasn't once stated a weakened read on Amrun and is content with his vote on her

Serious question: why is that okay for Johhog but not for me?

@singer's address to me re: the thing about Benmage: I did NOT bring anything about Benmage up to strengthen any point of mine. I was asked point blank about my experience and success with reading Benmage as scum.

@Regfan: Not wanting to give up meta tells is really common. If you know someone does something as X or Y alignment, telling them about it ruins it forever. I don't know what this meta tell is, but whatever, I get the principle.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Basically it boils down to this. Since I am no longer lurking, in order to use it for a reason to vote me, you have to show why you think it is more likely to come from scum shea than town shea. If you plan on doing this, I would like you to provide ONE example of me lurking day one as scum strategically. One. Hell, if you can do that, then maybe I'd be willing to do more than dismiss the continued votes on me as opportunism. Because I'm sure it doesn't exist. Furthermore, you would have to tell me why you think doing what I did as scum puts me at an advantageous position, because frankly, what I'm doing right now, is having a hell of a lot of pressure and having to do a hell of a lot of arguing to convince people that something is a null tell. If you can argue with a straight face that this is the type of position that a scum player attempts to put themselves in, then I don't even know what to tell you.

X

Disingenuous bullshit. Like I said earlier, there's obviously a real-life component to the lurking so those downsides you describe were going to be there regardless. I still maintained that you would've lurked less as town and that the timing of your return was suspect (you pretty much immediately had something to attack someone over).

P.S. this seems to contradict your earlier "can't stand that strategy" comment.

What was the implication you were going for?

That I won't have to change my mind on anyone because I'm already right about everything.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Shea, opinion on 'marble? Specifically the shallowness of his scumhunting?

[Thestatusquo]

CES, a, find me one example where I've done it. Your vote is illegitimate until you do. Secondly, did you not read the bottom of that post where I specifically state that I am pretty much incapable of doing it?

[Thestatusquo]

have to read. llama hasn't posted since I've started playing. Honest answer is honest.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm not going to spit through your games looking for a game wherein you were scum, lurked D1 and acknowledged that it was strategic. That's a waste of my time.

As to your second point, firstly, I did not. Secondly, your overwhelming desire to comment on every litte thing clearly hasn't manifested itself here. Thirdly, there's a pretty big difference between "can't stand that strategy" and "that strategy doesn't suit me/I don't find it enjoyable"; the first expresses a fairly common sentiment that you explicitly go against in that post I linked.

P-edit: just iso him?

[Captain Haddock]

I'm getting my team to replace me because this game is boring and I've had no help.

[Regfan]

Serious question: why is that okay for Johhog but not for me?

Multitude of reasons; 1) I have a strong town-read on him 2) I don't hold him and you to the same expectations due to experience levels ect. 3) I agree with his vote whereas I don't at all with yours 4) He's stated more scum-reads than just you.

Also Captains replace out for 'lack of help' and 'boring' is something I see more likely to come from town.

[Zachrulez]

Got busy unexpectedly last night. Catching up.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wow, I just noticed that all of CES' top scumreads are on him now. That is fascinating.

[Zachrulez]

Bolding my responses.

I have something else I want to say about it that makes me possibly doubt my own conclusion, but my team and I are checking if I'm allowed to say it.

I want to hear this if you're able.

Also let me know what you think of Benmage, he's not being mentioned much, but he's bothering me a lot.

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

I played with Benmage in Weather Mafia II (I *think* that's the only experience I've had with him) and he seemed to be just as loud and obnoxious as he is/has been here. Can you be more specific as to what feel "wrong"?

Since you brought this up now, I'd strongly disagree with that assertion.

[Zachrulez]

1. CES' reads have been static for half the game so far. Maybe a top scumread stays the same for a long time, but all 3 top reads don't stay the same when you're looking for scum. Especially when you have a whole team's worth of people with new ideas.

New York 146 just came to an end, which was a game I was moderating so I wanted to comment on it.

Basically CES entered the game and threw down a vote for Tammy. Contribution was minimal because he was catching up on the game. The real core of his play came in lylo (the next day) where he presented static scumreads on Fitz and MOI. Those reads basically never changed. I'm just verifying that I have seen this type of play from town CES.

[Amrun]

Quick question - I do remember your entrance to that game now, CES. Why is it a scumtel for shea to come in and vote for something while he catches up?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Because it suggests he was waiting for that type of opportunity where he can just come in and respond to something. Like a pouncing tiger.

[Amrun]

I don't agree, but okay.

[Bub Bidderskins]

She was scummy before the comment and one person was voting for her. She was scummy after the comment, and four people are voting for her for stuff she did before the comment. Do you see the problem I have with this wagon? All those reasons could have been used earlier but they weren't, because Amrun wasn't a convenient wagon then.

Okay, this is idiotic. No one and I mean no one who voted Amrun voted her even partially because of 'any specific comment' yet you INSIST that it's the case. Sure, some of the reasons for voting her could have been used to vote her earlier but that doesn't negate the strength or validity of them been put forward later, nor does it make the votes that followed it suspicious in any way.

Fine, just explain to me how Amrun got three more votes within 24 hours.

[Bub Bidderskins]

CES' reasons for voting TSQ are lol fail.

@Reg: give me one non-meta reason why Johhog is not scum. Just one.

[Johhog]

You don't think you could explain why I'm scum? I get that you misreading my TSQ comment is one point but there was others earlier, eh?