TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.23

Amrun (3) - Johhog, Captain Haddock, Regfan
Cogito Ergo Sum (3) - Benmage, Thestatusquo, Llamarble
Johhog (3) - SocioPath, Matias, Bub Bidderskins
Thestatusquo (3) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez
Captain Haddock (1) - Amrun

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

[Benmage]

Oh wow, I just noticed that all of CES' top scumreads are on him now.

That is fascinating

.

Anything of it?

[Benmage]

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

More to this than?

(imo, I just haven't awaken the dragon yet)

[SocioPath]

Also Captains replace out for 'lack of help' and 'boring' is something I see more likely to come from town.

Why is that?

[Equinox]

Llamarble has been prodded.

[Llamarble]

I'll have some more time tomorrow, but I'll just relay recent teammate stuff today.

1. CES' reads have been static for half the game so far. Maybe a top scumread stays the same for a long time, but all 3 top reads don't stay the same when you're looking for scum. Especially when you have a whole team's worth of people with new ideas.

New York 146 just came to an end, which was a game I was moderating so I wanted to comment on it.

Basically CES entered the game and threw down a vote for Tammy. Contribution was minimal because he was catching up on the game. The real core of his play came in lylo (the next day) where he presented static scumreads on Fitz and MOI. Those reads basically never changed. I'm just verifying that I have seen this type of play from town CES.

MoI says that this is an apples-to-rocks comparison because in the game you mentioned he replaced in, then picked 2 out of 4 people as scum in lylo and stuck to it. Whereas here it's D1 and there are 3 scum in 13 players and the total amount of information available has been increasing between him restating his reads.

Grey doesn't like Singer's 407 and mentioned that she picked scum last year.
He says 439 looks town though because of the 'useless git' bit.

Grey doesn't like TSQ very much, and he also thinks he's scum.

He also doesn't like Matias 410, which he thinks is townflip-preparation.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wow, I just noticed that all of CES' top scumreads are on him now.

That is fascinating

.

Anything of it?

I'm implying that the attacks on him look like they're scum motivated.

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

More to this than?

(imo, I just haven't awaken the dragon yet)

If that's what you're calling it, there's only one condition I know of that is the reason it ever sleeps...

[Zachrulez]

I'll have some more time tomorrow, but I'll just relay recent teammate stuff today.

1. CES' reads have been static for half the game so far. Maybe a top scumread stays the same for a long time, but all 3 top reads don't stay the same when you're looking for scum. Especially when you have a whole team's worth of people with new ideas.

New York 146 just came to an end, which was a game I was moderating so I wanted to comment on it.

Basically CES entered the game and threw down a vote for Tammy. Contribution was minimal because he was catching up on the game. The real core of his play came in lylo (the next day) where he presented static scumreads on Fitz and MOI. Those reads basically never changed. I'm just verifying that I have seen this type of play from town CES.

MoI says that this is an apples-to-rocks comparison because in the game you mentioned he replaced in, then picked 2 out of 4 people as scum in lylo and stuck to it. Whereas here it's D1 and there are 3 scum in 13 players and the total amount of information available has been increasing between him restating his reads.

Well sure the gamestate is different, but I'm not arguing that it's a town tell, just null. If you want to convince me that it's a scumtell, you need to show me that his reads are only static in this game for strategic reasons. (Which means showing me evidence that his reads aren't static in early game in other games he has played.)

[Benmage]

Zach, you think all 3 of us are scum, voting CES?

-what would be the reasoning you're referring to?

[Zachrulez]

Zach, you think all 3 of us are scum, voting CES?

-what would be the reasoning you're referring to?

Let's put it this way. I refuse to believe all three of you are all town.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP

Zach, you think all 3 of us are scum, voting CES?

-what would be the reasoning you're referring to?

Let's put it this way. I refuse to believe all three of you are

all

town.

[Benmage]

If CES was to flip scum, would that opinion change?

And llama and I are town, fyi.

[Zachrulez]

If CES was to flip scum, would that opinion change?

And llama and I are town, fyi.

Obviously, because if he flipped scum I'd be on the wrong damn planet in terms of thinking.

Why are TSQ and CES scum together?

[Zachrulez]

Better way of putting that is how do you end up with scum reads on both?

[Benmage]

I don't have an opinion on tsq yet. I do however thing it an absurd assertion yo assume his late start was scum motivated whatsoever.

[Benmage]

More literally speaking, if CES was scum, could we all be town?

[Zachrulez]

You filed TSQ as scum here.

Here's where I'm at:

Conftown via truth tells
Benmage
Zachrulez
singersigner

Most town looking
Regfan
Matias
Llamarble
Johhog

Other reasoning
SocioPath
Captain Haddock

Remainder:
Thestatusquo
Amrun
Bub Bidderskins
Cogito Ergo Sum

[Zachrulez]

More literally speaking, if CES was scum, could we all be town?

It would certainly be more possible than I think it is now.

[Benmage]

Looks like
.... remainder actually.

[Zachrulez]

In red?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

And llama and I are town, fyi.

Feel free to explain this.

[Johhog]

Looks like
.... remainder actually.

Town:
Zachrulez
singersigner
SocioPath
Amrun
Benmage
Captain Haddock
Llamarble


Other:
Bub Bidderskins
Cogito Ergo Sum
Johhog
Matias
Regfan
Thestatusquo

Pretty happy with these town reads.

Town:
Zachrulez
singersigner
SocioPath
Amrun
Benmage
Captain Haddock
Llamarble
Johog
CES


Other:
Bub Bidderskins
Matias
Regfan
Thestatusquo

Pretty happy with these town reads.

FIXED

Town:
Zachrulez
singersigner
SocioPath
Benmage
Captain Haddock
Llamarble
CES
Matias
Regfan
Amrun


Other:
Johog
Bub Bidderskins
Thestatusquo

Pretty happy with these town reads.

FIXED

Lets try this again.

unvote vote Johog

Here's where I'm at:

Conftown via truth tells
Benmage
Zachrulez
singersigner

Most town looking
Regfan
Matias
Llamarble
Johhog

Other reasoning
SocioPath
Captain Haddock

Remainder:
Thestatusquo
Amrun
Bub Bidderskins
Cogito Ergo Sum

...

Seriously?

[Bub Bidderskins]

unvote

I did a re-read of Johhog's iso, and for some fucking reason he looks town to me now. The main reason I thought he was scummy was because he didn't pressure any of his scum suspects. But looking back at his votes, none of them looked like scum votes. Scum either A) want to start a mislynch wagon or B) try to hop on an easy wagon unnoticed. Johhog's two votes were a random vote on Benmage that he later stuck with and a vote on Amrun when nobody was voting for Amrun. He didn't add much pressure to his vote, but he didn't use his vote in a scum-motivated way.

I feel like he actually thought that Benmage and Amurn were scum at the time. And then there's the meta stuff that Reg brought up. I think he may just be town...

[singersigner]

I'm curious as to what GreyICE doesn't like about shitty life things happening to me...

Oh wait, I bet I can guess.

[singersigner]

(woah, I'd been working on this post since last night, came in as read the last page today, and got my own ninja...weird...)

Hey Bub, why would your team send you out as town?

I'm stuck in a massive town losing streak. Due to the tigerpocalypse it's hard to tell how large exactly, but I think it's 6-8 town losses in a row. I just can't seem to figure out how to hunt for scum. I don't get lynched, because I've learned how play "townie" (hence my much higher scum win percentage), but I just can't find scum.

Right now I'm on a mafia break, and when I get back into a mafia game, I want my town game to be better than it is now. Is there any hope for me?

This is actually a good point. I feel as though his answer (I don't like themes, etc) doesn't really cover the options of the other two that are not themed.

I'm interested in a lot of this. Can you provide meta of shea lurking as scum (and any countermeta), for reference? Why do you think him picking White Flag is suspect?

See this post + Glrok told me he does. Him picking White Flag is suspect because I wouldn't really expect him to play in this one (also not to the extent that they'd pick it #2 at the draft) whereas it does seem to fit Ellibereth and Porochaz to a lesser extent. Ellibereth definitely prefers town, Poro I think does too and shea, if he doesn't prefer scum, at least is better at scum, so it would make sense for shea to grab this game if it had a scum PM.

I'm surprised at the post you linked to, but it would make sense with the way that he's been acting. He was allowed to lurk (people kept saying they weren't going to vote an MIA, even for pressure), so he did. Though "Glork said so" should probably be backed up with something, otherwise it's going to be just as empty as you saying "I just know, ok?!?"

Just give us a full read list, please.

So demanding. Also, stupid. How can you expect a full list if he's not even read the game to this point (as he says). The only way he could do that is if you assume he's been keeping up with the game, but deliberately not posting--how does that read to you?

In other news: my team and I are pretty on board with similar town reads, and that's awesome.

Kublai Kahn thinks Sociopath's noncontribution is bullshit and he deserves to be lynched for it, or voted until he stops.

What's the difference between Shea's noncontribution and Socio's, and why should only one of them be pressure voted for it and not the other?

Well, you could comment on it instead of ignoring it, now that you've figured out what I'm talking about.

You could comment on a lot of things in this game, instead of ignoring 80% of what has been going on...unless you haven't figured out what we're talking about...

Johhog, for real? that post is so bad. TSQ HAS provided content. He hasn't walled us to death, but he's here and trying to participate. He hasn't had a chance to read the backlog. What a copout.

Oh...oh gawd...it hurts. It hurts so bad...

You should really ISO him and point out

exactly

what content Shea's posted thus far that HASN'T had to do with himself. Please. Please do so and show me more than two posts he's made with anything other than I'M NOT LURKING ANYMORE SO ANY VOTES ON ME FOR LURKING ARE ST00PID (hint: I doubt any votes on him are for lurking now so he sure as hell think of a difference argument).

My teammates reads so far:

Rhinox says that scum is within Haddock, Benmage, Zach, TSQ. However, I don't think I agree with these. Reg, Amrun and Bub are town to him, the rest are null/lean town. I agree with Reg and Bub, not so much Amrun, who I'm still neutral with.

None of his reads are really strong except for Reg, Amrun and Bub. The TSQ read may be out of date.

iam and Fonz are still reading.

Don't disagree with your teammates publicly. This looks like a bad hydra getting away with having every read on everyone so ultimately they could say one of them was right.

To be fair, CES was an example, but it doesn't ring any less bullshit bells when it comes to his reasons on setting up his out on the TSQ wagon.

I want Johhog hung.

I agree with bullshit bells, but I'd rather see Shea hung first.

I seriously don't get the connection of TSQ's lurking to some ulterior motive, like wagons or whatever. I don't like this wagon pushing and I don't like the multiple people skirting around his lurking being "scummy"

Dude. You and Amrun, I swear... Just look at Shea's timing of entering the game. The "content" he claims he's posted since he came here. The misplaced defense of his "lurker wagon." The way people have avoided him like the plague. Tell me, do you think lurking is ok for anyone to do? Would you allow anyone to get away with it? What about when they come back? You the one who immediately pressed him for something,

anything

of value. Has he given that to you? Are you fully satisfied with his presence in the game?

If you answer "yes" to any of these, sdfjanbzl;ksnim fa;kdgjanerlgkjh.

I am also fairly confident that mattias is town. Gut read. I like his posts, and almost every one of them is one I would make myself.

Oh this is just BAD. How is this a

gut read

if you would make almost every one of his posts yourself...as...town? Question mark? Do you not feel that his posts are exactly the ones that you would be making town-aligned? So does that not give you something more than a "gut read" on Matias?

@singer's address to me re: the thing about Benmage: I did NOT bring anything about Benmage up to strengthen any point of mine. I was asked point blank about my experience and success with reading Benmage as scum.

Yes, so you made statements about it supporting your experience, which you then can't back up later because "you don't remember all that well." Don't say shit like "I was one of the two people who still thought blahblahblah" when you're only going to admit that you don't actually remember. Admit you don't remember, or

do your research

.

Oh wow, I just noticed that all of CES' top scumreads are on him now. That is fascinating.

It is, and a good thing to point out. It don't really know what I make of it, though, as I disagree with at least one of his scumreads (Benmage I have to reread after you brought up this next comment).

Bolding my responses.

I have something else I want to say about it that makes me possibly doubt my own conclusion, but my team and I are checking if I'm allowed to say it.

I want to hear this if you're able.

Also let me know what you think of Benmage, he's not being mentioned much, but he's bothering me a lot.

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

I played with Benmage in Weather Mafia II (I *think* that's the only experience I've had with him) and he seemed to be just as loud and obnoxious as he is/has been here. Can you be more specific as to what feel "wrong"?

Since you brought this up now, I'd strongly disagree with that assertion.

Aaaaand now I'm going to reread, because I'll admit it was the feeling I got when he entered the game, but since he's needed to be prodded, I realize I haven't actually felt his presence in a while. The last exchange with you two, though, supports your assertion that he has not been the same as WMII. I don't exactly buy the whole "awaken the dragon" bit because in WMII he was definitely obnoxious of his own volition, and not because of anyone poking him.

Because it suggests he was waiting for that type of opportunity where he can just come in and respond to something. Like a pouncing tiger.

^5