[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Amrun]

I agree with IceGuy.

[callforjudgement]

That reminds me, I've been meaning to start hypocopping in Normals too. (More hypobreadcrumbing: "If I have a role who would want to make a breadcrumb, I breadcrumb <name of player>.", regardless of what my role is.) I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work just as well in a Normal as it would in an Open.

[Hoopla]

I keep forgetting to bring this up, but I suspect Nomination Mafia is unbalanced. Despite having only been run twice, I've played in both and get the impression it's incredibly difficult for scum (both were resounding town wins), as they have no direct way of killing obv-townies, but are still hamstrung by being dealt a scum:town ratio lower than a usual nightless game (and those tend to be town-sided anyway). The mechanic of town believing all three nominees are town makes those days run very slow with no scumhunting occurring.

Last year when marathon days were still popular, we ran maybe half a dozen 2:5 Nomination Mafia games with a mixture of results. I suspect this mechanic is better suited to a game that size, balance-wise and fun-wise. It heightens the wifom mechanic of nomination selections too, as the second day becomes more important.

I think this setup would be improved by going down to 2:5.

[Amrun]

Alternatively, you could give scum an x-shot daykill?

[izakthegoomba]

Alternatively, you could give scum an x-shot daykill?

Factional?

[Amrun]

Yes.

[Hoopla]

Seems like a cheap mechanic that ruins the elegance of the setup. It also then just becomes nearly identical to another nightless game (Nightless Vengeful Mayhem) that uses that mechanic.

[Mr. Flay]

In principle, I don't have a problem with hypo* strategies as long as they are not infalliable or almost infalliable.

Weak M.D. and Gurgi EC8 provide too few possibilities for scum to interfere with town's plans. JK9++ has the possibility of a hider but enough unknown variables to make a hypo* strategy beneficial but not (almost) game-breaking.

Nicely said.

That reminds me, I've been meaning to start hypocopping in Normals too. (More hypobreadcrumbing: "If I have a role who would want to make a breadcrumb, I breadcrumb <name of player>.", regardless of what my role is.) I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work just as well in a Normal as it would in an Open.

I'd like to see that brought up in Mafia Discussion first. Some players may see it as game-ruining, and you'll get cleaner opinions outside of games.

[IceGuy]

Seems like a cheap mechanic that ruins the elegance of the setup. It also then just becomes nearly identical to another nightless game (Nightless Vengeful Mayhem) that uses that mechanic.

I don't think a factional NK would ruin the elegance of the setup. Might require a modification in the number of VTs, though. I'd also consider switching odd- and even-numbered days to give town more information on D1 (N0 is nomination only, no kill). If you're allowing no-lynches on non-nomination days, you also need a special mechanic for LyLo because losing although you got the scum figured out is frustrating.

[Hoopla]

I think I'd prefer to try the different ratio before I tinkered with giving scum kills or switching nomination days. The current setup doesn't have endgame problems that require special rules.

[IceGuy]

The current setup doesn't have endgame problems that require special rules.

This is only necessary if you allow no-lynching.

[Hoopla]

Going to give 2:5 Nomination Mafia a test run soon, then we'll discuss the issue again later.

[Hoopla]

A game of Medical Mafia just finished, and although the endgame wasn't tarnished, as scum was lynched, I think situations where a Quack Doc/Mafia Goon endgame shouldn't go to night and resolve as a draw, which I believe is the current interpretation.

As no Doctors know what they do, mafia has even less clue what someone does, so it just makes the endgame a lottery if the last Doctor can kill/block the remaining scum. I think a 50% rule needs to be enforced for this setups' endgame.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Let mafia win those endgames, yes.

[IceGuy]

Was there a lot of logic puzzling in the game?

[Kcdaspot]

BUMPING A HOOPLA THREAD

[izakthegoomba]

...seriously?

[Kcdaspot]

This was a good thread.

[Hoopla]

Was there a lot of logic puzzling in the game?

It's hard to logic puzzle when you don't know what you're going to do. There might be elaborate networks you could create, but the benefits seem negligible.

~~

Have been meaning to do CES' review of Diffusion of Power for a while, but wanted to wait until Korts' Brass & Shrapnel had finished, as I suspect early gameplay could mimic what happened there.

Diffusion of Power:
4-6 of {N1 Cop, N2 Cop, N3 Cop, N4 Cop, N5 Cop}
6-4 of {N1 Doc, N2 Doc, N3 Doc, N4 Doc, N5 Doc}
3 Goons
+ Rule to exclude the more extreme scenarios to make it less swingy.

In Brass & Shrapnel, the town was similarly divided into receiving a role from two pools of PR's, which prompted a D1 massclaim and forced scum to pick which side they wanted to be in. If scum draw early positions in the massclaim or just don't think about their claim, town can deduce a maximum number of scum from a particular pool, which is costly if they ever lynch that maximum number before that pool is wiped out - it can create artificial innocents later in the game (or at least rule out certain combinations) based on what happened in a D1 massclaim.

If innocents do get confirmed, either by a cop or through a massclaim, it can be difficult to get rid of them all, when an innocent alive gives Doctors an obvious target each night, which increases the chances of a Doctor save occurring, which in turn increases the length of the game, enabling a higher ratio of powers to be used. It could also be a strategy to no-lynch on D2 and D3 to build a pool of innocents and have claimed Doctors protect that pool - not all scum can fakeclaim Cop, so on the whole it should be relatively reliable, and allows any D4 and D5 Cops a good chance at getting an investigation.

I think the setup needs work, because I can't see any town not massclaiming D1.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

There's on average 1 doc protect each Night, so it really shouldn't be that hard to get a kill through on either a cop or an innocent result. If you've got the doctors protecting a pool of 3 or bigger, odds are that they won't manage 2 successful protect (i.e. an extra lynch). As for the set-up information, unless claims end up 5-8 (chance of 1 in 6), town needs to lynch 2 scum in the same pool to get any information out of it; I don't think that's meaningful enough to justify telling the scum who the cops are.

[Hoopla]

Do you expect town to massclaim?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

No.

[Hoopla]

I do - or at the very least hypocopping.

[IceGuy]

I agree with Hoopla.

[Hoopla]

Alright. Say we go ahead and run this, are we allowing double ups on roles? Can there be three N1 Docs for example?

I still get the feeling that town will spend their time on D1 trying to break the game instead of playing mafia, regardless of whether they find a beneficial claiming strategy.