MoI wrote:This entire post is staging... which implicitly shows he doesn’t believe I or Fate are scum. If so why even bother to say it? Because you should clearly not hate voting scum regardless of who is on the wagon, or care if a partner is bussing said scum.
*shakes head* You've taken my joking relationship with Fate and are trying to treat it as seriousness. Nothing in this post of mine suggested anything about Fate's alignment and ultimately implied I thought you were scum, so you're wrong entirely on that front. And the hate to vote with Fate is a continuation of my win/win joke.
The only part of this post of mine that was serious is that the idea of getting a town oriented kill if we end up mislynching, combined with the anti-town stupidity of your 'gamble' and my uneasiness of the wagons would likely lead to me swapping my vote. Perhaps it was a poor time for joking but anyone around me for five minutes knows most of what I post is some attempted (and likely failed) form of humor.
MoI wrote:This post is the first part of his ‘overjustification’. If he thougth I was scum he’s simply vote me, say “Deadline is close, Pappums isn’t getting lynched, we need a flip” pretty straightforwardly.
This is completely false and idiotic. If I were scum I could have just done that too... I be in a hell of a lot less hot water if I had. Instead, I choose to find legitimate reason to lynch someone I had up until that point considered town in order to ensure I wasn't making a mistake. Calling my reasons for voting you 'overly justified' is lazy and without cause. You are mistaking analysis for justification, which it was not intended as, nor used as.
I voted MoI for two reasons, TWO. Point A and Point B, everything else was either analysis for my own sake or an explication of how I arrived at the conclusion of said two points. If anyone wants to misconstrue my analysis for over justification, fine... But find legitimate fault with my reasons before you vote me on this stupidity.
MoI wrote:This is what you call empty posting. He throws us a complete paragraph that is a rehash of the wagon movement of the day, which is pretty easy to find just by looking at the Mod Vote-counts.
It was an analysis I had twice before alluded to be doing. It was empty in that it had no bearing on my vote, you are correct in that aspect. The wagon analysis was simply a mater of me double checking my town read on you, nothing more, nothing less.
MoI wrote:He’s aiming to use my play in IGMEOY Mafia... What he isn’t telling you is that game I power-bussed because the Mod fucked the game up beyond recognition ...and the long-show was out only shot to beat PoE. But Korlash, who has never played with me as scum for a full game, is trying to tie that single scum game to my play here in a manner to suggest his reads are still justified. Scummy.
A) That game was finishing up as all this way playing out, so your play in it was fresh in my mind. Don't try to play it off like a scummy move when I sure as shit know every time I'm in two games with people I get crap flung at me in one due to the other. We're human, that's how our minds work.
B) The fucking Scum QT had not been released until well into this game's night phase, so I could only speculate on why you did that plan. yes, I assumed that's just how you played as scum, I know better now. Don't accuse me of withholding information I NEVER FUCKING HAD! If I had had more knowledge on your plan in IGMEOY I would have fully calculated it. However, given the nature of the analysis we're talking about, my comments would not have changed drastically. (Although, yes. There would be a foot note about said games situational differences.)
MoI wrote:1. The first paragraph is an example of “Outguessing the Mod”. He’s experienced enough to know that it’s not good Town play at all to do so. For example look at JasonT’s last Mini Theme Sci-Fi Mafia which had Sarah Connor of Terminator lore as a ‘Watcher” and Luke Skywalker as a “Hider”. In that game DavidXanatos scum tried to make the same “This doesn’t make sense” Mod outguessing argument against Woodruff’s Luke Skywalker claim. He was scum.
Sorry, I guess I was wrong when I said you were likely fakeclaiming... Wait, no I wasn't... I called that one... Don't compare me with other people in this regard because I'm brilliant at it. You saw me accurately guess the scum had a role cop in IGMEOY and you just saw me call you on your fake claim. That makes my score 2-0 with this sort of thing from your perspective and i have a hell of a lot other examples if need be.
I play the 'outguessing the mod' game a lot, and no... I'm far from perfect mate, don't get me wrong. But ultimately it has no bearing on my alignment. I will speculate, and grill claims, and compare roles to flavor regardless of my alignment. I'll just be correct more times than not as town.
MoI wrote:2. The second paragraph does not make any sense with the first. In the first he’s saying my role was invalid and in the second he’s talking about how lynching me as said role makes sense from a “get an additional flip” standpoint. It makes no sense to include the second paragraph if he honestly believed the first. None at all. Because if he really believed I was scum fake-claiming he wouldn’t cover his tracks and say “I’d love to see Fate flip in an creative way”. Nope. The second paragraph highlights that he didn’t at this stage believe I was fake-claiming Vengeful . Otherwise he wouldn’t discuss the Pro-Town benefits of lynching me (agreeing with Fate) at all.
*shakes head* I'm an analytical player. I assume all possible outcomes when adding up my 'math'. I had to assume a situation existed where I was wrong, and it just so happened that if that situation occurred, it would end up benefiting the town. I.e. We lynch a suspicious player, he ends up town. BUT, we then get a town oriented kill on another player that town (and hopefully the rest of the player base) thinks is scum. I had reason to think you were scum, and a contingency in the event I was wrong. It had nothing to do with me 'not believing you were fakeclaiming.'
Looking back at what I said, it was fairly stupidly worded so I'll have to live with that. But I will hold that the conclusion I arrived at was accurate.
MoI wrote:This is the kicker – why is he apologizing for voting me if he thinks I’m scum? No reason to. The only reason to do this is he knows I’m not and wants to keep things smooth and have me not change my target if I am indeed a Vengeful (which he ostensibly doesn’t believe if you read his post above).
An of course I disagree … my Vengeful long-gambit worked well. It gave us tons of meaningful interactions early (who refused to vote my wagon early) and highlighted you as scum being coaxed onto the wagon.
I wasn't apologizing. I can't remember the exact situation that occurred but I know there was a lot of 'hate' flying around, I wanted to make my own stance clear on that. (This had nothing to do with my vote or the game, it had to do with my integrity as a player and my hatred for people who actually let their emotions toward another influence games. If you took it as me trying to backpeddle, then you misunderstood my meaning.)
And your gambit failed miserably due to your own inability to accurately read your results. You failed to take in FOUR key variables (the deadline, your wagons size, my reasons given for voting you, and my own feelings towards fate.) before arriving at your conclusion. You made a ploy with an idea of what scum would do and instead of seeing the ploy work and analyzing the results you just clapped your hands and said "worked! ha ha."
I respect you for trying this gamble, a lot. Not enough people lie as town when it's such a great tool for us to use. I respect people who do it (My all time hero is Pokerface, and check my comments toward AD in IGMEOY for his lie) but you still need to pull the gambit off well. You can't just lie willy nilly and fling your arms at a potential result. NOTHING you had done suggested what I did came from scum, yet instead of analyzing it to come to a conclusion, you came to a conclusion and only analyzed it FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW. [case in point, I said you were likely fakeclaiming WHICH YOU WERE, yet you still called me scum for saying it. You were blinded and your conclusions are crap because of it. By default, your gambit is a failure for this point alone. Add in that it had zero chance of legitimately finding scum, and it certainly fails as a useful ploy. But we can discuss it after the game...]
MoI wrote:Keep in mind that he just in the previous post said that the Vote Analysis wasn’t valid without flips. Also keep in mind that I’ve already shown his set-up speculation is scummy.
Heat of the moment and all that with the vote analysis, and you mean to say "his set-up speculation was accurate" accurate is the word you're looking for... Legitimate... Has no bearing on potential alignment since Korlash is known for doing it in every theme game he can... But of course... ACCURATE...
Keep in mind, regardless of any other factors me speculating on setup and roles is something I ALWAYS DO... I am neither town nor scum because of it, simply fucking awesome at it... Skills bro, skills.
MoI wrote:1. Yes it was a ploy. A ploy that caught scum Korlash. You haven’t indicated or made an argument as to how Town don’t gambit / use ploys. You just keep trying to dismiss it by saying "Gambit better". So no, I’m clearly not agreeing with you.
A ploy made three days from deadline while your wagon was at L-2... ANY TOWN WOULD HAVE TO VOTE YOU AT SOME POINT OR IT'S A NO LYNCH! END. OF. STORY. Your gambit failed to realize that town had no reason NOT to lynch you, thus your 'ploy' had no way to accurately catch SCUM since both town and scum HAD to vote you at this point. Your gambit, was fucking stupid and does not work.
That being said, I never said nor will claim town don't gamble or use ploys... It's just very important that said gambles work and are well thought out when done. Yours neither works nor seems to have been well thought out.
MoI wrote:2. I haven’t shown alternatives to your set-up speculation? I don’t have to. Outguessing the Mod is useless as already outlined. But your distancing “it isn’t right or wrong, it’s speculation” shows that you don’t actually believe what you are floating.
No it doesn't. Just because it's 'neither wrong nor right' doesn't mean I don't believe in it. I believe in my speculation until the mod proves me wrong or right, at which point I start believing in the truth.
And as I've already outlined... Outguessing the mod is not useless, since... Well... Like I said, I was right... >.>
MoI wrote:Um, whut? You had feelings that my wagon was fishy before that? The only reason my wagon should be fishy is if I am Town. So derp … you’re just proving my point for me.
Should say "wagons" i.e. yours, pizza, and Rats collectively.
MoI wrote:And of course you are dodging the issue – you bit hook, line and sinker to the gambit. You saw MoI who has claimed Vengeful apparently biting on his bad history with Fate and saying “Jump on my wagon, I’ll still kill Town-Fate for spite” which you have no reason to doubt. So you see this post, spend 30 minutes making the post where you justify voting me for all sorts of reasons, and slide on the wagon.
I saw MoI fakeclaiming with an added contingency that if I'm wrong, we get a second chance to kill scum. You have assumed a conclusion and are not accurately looking at events to interpret how they unfolded. You think I'm scum who bit your hook so you are intentionally failing to see my own legitimate reasons for voting you. You MoI, have delved into terrible mafia play and are a bad person and should feel bad. =D
And where did I ever say he was town-Fate? (I don't remember saying one way or the other in all honesty) Wouldn't, though, hypothetically... If I thought Fate was scum, lynching you (who I also thought was scum) would net me one possible scum lynch, and baring me being wrong, would result in a SECOND POSSIBLE SCUM DEATH. Why would any town not hop on your wagon at this point?
I'm not suggesting this was the case necessarily, just illustrating why your gambit was a failure. This illustrates a reason why town would have 'bit the hook' just as easily as scum.
MoI wrote:You got caught with your hand in the cookie jar Scumlash. Too late to reverse course on that now!
Maybe, and you can blame yourself for that later. For now I need to get V2V lynched and try to salvage whatever results I can from yesterday to find the third scum. For now, you sit there and contemplate on the fact Fate has so far outshined both of us... You don't even get credit for Ben, that's all him. (He should buy us drinks when I get to the Dead QT.... >.> )
MoI wrote:1. Trying to suggest that my gambit is invalid because “anyone would have gotten the same treatment”. Yup anyone who jumped on with the justification and timing that you gave would. Because they would be scum. You notice that Mini Librarian also properly noted you vote was scummy. Is he scum also?
2. Trying to insult and dismiss (you have a lot to learn about gambitting). It burns to get caught doesn’t it?
1. At the time, I would have said yes. He was a potential third partner. Since that is impossible with you flipping town, I have no comment. And if Librarian stole money from his father would that be justification for you to do it? No sir...
2. No. I would love to be caught by a gambit. I just feel sorry you actually believe what you're saying. When this game is over we can discuss it more at length if you want, but I am clearly better at this sort of thing than you are... And I mean no insult by it... It's just an apparent fact...
MoI wrote:Korlash posted this at Post 566. Note that he is implicitly showing that he believes me claim is still valid (I had not yet retracted it) in his buddying to V2V. If he thought I was scum who would not be killing someone on my wagon (which is his premise). Which doesn’t make sense. Why would I be worried about who jumped on as I have shown in calling Korlash scum? I could just kill whoever I wanted. Yet the main thrust of Korlash’s post is that I’m not Vengeful. It’s Cognitive Dissoance.
This is so stupid I almost didn't respond to it. My main thrust is you're lying about being a town killing role, but I see no reason you can't be a scum bomb type role who kills the person who hammered you. Or a scum vengeful. Did you actually read my conclusion as to why you were likely fakeclaiming? Or did you just toss it aside because you disbelieve in my methods?
MoI wrote:Keep this in mind post my flip – Korlash in the bolded is actively acknowledging that him being a Vengekill is a chance to flip scum. No Town player ever thinks this. If he was Town he’s be making more of a point for me to be shooting his ‘scum’ suspects Pappums and Fate. But nope … he’s not even thinking about that. He’s not approaching the situation from a Town perspective.
I was speaking from a 'town perspective' as to why people should vote you over me. I was speaking logically, that's it. Anyone who wanted to lynch me, should logically vote you. And anyone who wanted to lynch you, should logically vote you. It had nothing to do with my reads, it was simply math regarding any outside town's best play.
MoI wrote:And at Post 584 Korlash is still pretending that he thinks my claim is valid in pushing Yates to vote me. Doesn’t connect with his “I was voting you for fake-claiming” that he trotted out after I claimed VT.
No, I'm still speaking from an outside player's perspective. There was no reason to explain why you were scum at this point because we were not in a 1v1, we were in a situation where lynching you was the correct play regardless of anything else... If you were scum, you die. if I was scum, I die. Thus, correct move= voting you. (as you can see, this explanation fails to explain why you are actually scum, because it's irrelevant at this specific point. Once you admitted your claim was fake, this situation was erased and having to argue why you were scum became important again.)
MoI wrote:I’ve already caught you but in your defense your strong defense of obv-scum Benmage has already told me you are partners
I fail to see how being buddy buddy with someone is defensive... It's just more fun and keeps up a friendly atmosphere. I was more defensive of you throughout the day than I ever was with Benmage. But if I have to die for false links to him I'm fine with that, it's still a dead scum. V2V needs to die for his faked vig 'claim' first, but I'll willinging sacrifice myself tomorrow if that's what people want.
