Heroes of Comedy Game Over - He who laughs last!

[pappums rat]

Yates, how does claiming vig as scum make any sense at all? He would have to have manufactured a second kill at night, which would have been impossible, so he would have been called out on it. He would probably have claimed RB'ed, and that would probably work for awhile, but he would still always have that scrutiny on him for the rest of the game. I cant see ANY scum motivation behind claiming vig, but (even though I do think it was a bad idea) I can see the town motivation to do so.

[Yates]

This godawful V2V vote is just the icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with a lot of what you said but, obviously, disagree with your V2V assessment. I think it is far more likely Fate didn't see VJ to be as much of a threat as Benmage. It's the whole one shot two targets dilemma. Who's to say he wouldn't have called VJ out today or simply vigged him tonight? Part of the nice thing about VJ claiming vig is it could keep some heat off of Fate. That's my take on it, anyway.

[pappums rat]

Korlash, it was me that said V2V was probably SK instead of vig, but Fate's flip and the lack of a third kill makes that an extremely remote possibility. V2V is town.

P. Edit: I'll look back at how Fate handled V2V's claim and see what I can glean from it.

[Korlash]

Korlash, I would expect better from you than trying to pull a bullshit V2V wagon. If Fate had thought V2V was trying to pull a scum fakeclaim as vig (which would be a fucking terrible idea) he would have shot him. Instead he killed Benmage, which makes sense considering him and MoI yesterday. V2V obviously hasnt been concentrating on this game much and has just tunneled Yates all game. I think trying to draw the NK is clearly what he was attempting, why else would he so blatantly claim vig with no pressure for a claim? The simple fact is MoI and Fate both flipped town, and they both were voting you at the time of their deaths, for a reason that I found to be reasonable. This godawful V2V vote is just the icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.

A vote on V2V right now is not bullshit, he has admitted to lying. A wagon forming is fairly standard while we sort this out. How can you say a vote on V2V is 'god awful'?

My vote was even less bullshit because it came BEFORE he admitted to lying and thus was apparently 'caught in both a lie and a fakeclaim' meaning a vote was just and in fact necessary...

The simple fact is MoI and Fate both flipped town, and they both were voting you at the time of their deaths, for a reason that I found to be reasonable.

I'd vote you just for this statement alone... Need more from this V2V wagon though...

[Korlash]

Yates, how does claiming vig as scum make any sense at all? He would have to have manufactured a second kill at night, which would have been impossible, so he would have been called out on it. He would probably have claimed RB'ed, and that would probably work for awhile, but he would still always have that scrutiny on him for the rest of the game. I cant see ANY scum motivation behind claiming vig, but (even though I do think it was a bad idea) I can see the town motivation to do so.

Then you aren't looking hard enough. Scum can easily fall behind in a game and pull a claim like this to try and out a town power role for their partners. I'll grant you, Ben flipping Goon... Point in favor of V2V, but this giant leap to his aid without even considering the fact he lied isn't a very town sillouette...

Korlash, it was me that said V2V was probably SK instead of vig, but Fate's flip and the lack of a third kill makes that an extremely remote possibility. V2V is town.

I agree the odds of him being an SK are non-existent now. Three kills in a mini, not going to happen. Was it really you? Wonder why I thought it was Yates... oh well, feel slightly better about him...

[Yates]

I'll look back at how Fate handled V2V's claim and see what I can glean from it.

This was the first thing he said, and I didn't understand what he was talking about at the time:

So close, slowly but surely, almost there

Go back and read it in context and tell me what you think he was talking about.

[Yates]

Wonder why I thought it was Yates...

Because I had the whole discussion about why MOI might fakeclaim vengeful - which he did.

[Korlash]

Naw, my memory is just bust. Perks of

being so well hung

getting old... >.>

[pappums rat]

Well I looked and Fate didnt say anything about V2V's vig claim.

LOL Korlash are you a proponent of that shit-awful Lynch All Liars rule? Yeah, I guess technically vijay did "lie" but the way I see it, it was obviously a town gambit.

I'd vote you just for this statement alone... Need more from this V2V wagon though...

Appeal to fear noted. Im real scared.

Then you aren't looking hard enough. Scum can easily fall behind in a game and pull a claim like this to try and out a town power role for their partners.

IIRC V2V didnt have much or any pressure on him when he claimed.

but this giant leap to his aid without even considering the fact he lied isn't a very town sillouette...

Im not terribly concerned whether or not you think Im town because Im fairly certain you know for a fact that I am. And Im not leaping to his aid as mych as attacking you for jumping on someone for obvshit reasoning.

P. Edit: I think he was referring to MoI getting closer to being at L-1.

[Korlash]

LOL Korlash are you a proponent of that shit-awful Lynch All Liars rule? Yeah, I guess technically vijay did "lie" but the way I see it, it was obviously a town gambit.

No, I lie all the time as town. If you notice, I have yet to call for his lynch. I'm simply trying to figure out why he lied and if there is town intent behind it. And don't call it an 'obvious' town gambit, regardless of if it was a town gambit at the end of all this or not, do not sully yourself by saying it's 'obviously' anything. The very definition of a 'gambit' is that it can't be 'obviously' anything.

Appeal to fear noted. Im real scared.

Ha ha ha ha ha... You have to be at MoI's level to be able to pull this shtick off mate.

IIRC V2V didnt have much or any pressure on him when he claimed.

What does that have to do with my statement? If he can't be buggered to keep up with the game as town, then the same is true as scum. Pulling this type of gambit is possible in either scenario.

The problem I have is the way he went about it. it was far too specific for a town gambit. MoI picked a rare and out there role, V2V picked one rather more common. Like I said before, I can argue both sides here so I need more from him.

@ V2V: Why did you choose to fake a vig claim?

Im not terribly concerned whether or not you think Im town because Im fairly certain you know for a fact that I am. And Im not leaping to his aid as mych as attacking you for jumping on someone for obvshit reasoning.

There is no shit reasoning behind my vote. If that is all you can think to say then it's a bit of a pathetic attack mate. I notice you failed to attack the other two people who voted him for the same reason... Why is it shit reason worth attacking with me, yet perfectly acceptable by them? Is it because you feel I'm such easy mislynch fodder?

P. Edit: I think he was referring to MoI getting closer to being at L-1.

You were at L-3, and MoI was at L-4... What the fuck are you smoking? Plus, he had posted since the last vote had been placed so why would he wait to say this?

[Korlash]

Hell, fate was voting Pizza!!!!!

YOU DIDN'T EVEN REALLY LOOK AT IT DID YOU RAT?!?!?!

(Keeping you alive in my heart Fate <3)

[Yates]

I think he was referring to MoI getting closer to being at L-1.

I didn't know what to think then but NOW I'm thinking he could have been saying, "I've found two scum now I just need to find the third."

Also bugging me - I don't know what to make of this series of statements/events because when I look at these last posts of Fate's, I'm kind of surprised Korlash wasn't perforated:

Vote: Korlash

lolyeah die Korlash.

This is scum and I'm not moving.

Benmage was Dwight Schrute Scum goon, executed Night 1.

I guess what I'm getting at is this may not be as cut and dry as Fate vigged Benmage and I want to keep other options/ideas in play.

[Korlash]

No no no, Fate wouldn't vig me, he's actually (i know, I find it hard to believe too) smart...

He thought both me and Ben were scum, and I was obviously easier to lynch. Wasting the vig on me could let his 'second scum' get away. Plus, from his perspective, if I was scum who fell for MoI's trap, it's possible I had some Bulletproof ability anyway given that nature.

Naw, Fate vigged Ben, flavor of death even seems to suggest it. (he was found across from Fate)

[vijay2vasandani]

I claimed vig because vig is very dangerous to scum. Meaning theyre more likely than not to shoot me. Also, a vig is less likely to CC during the day, choosing instead to shoot at night if anything. that way I'm less likely to out a real town PR. Will talk about Yates in a bit, at the golf course atm.

[Korlash]

I didn't know they played golf in Australia.... Huh, learn something new every day...

Did you think at all about the possibility of drawing the vig kill? What about the doc protect?

[jasonT1981]

Scott Brosius and Tammy replace Zeek and MattP

[Scott Brosius]

Ill gloss over Day 1, anything I need to know immediately?

[Pizzadudes7]

People are dead (no, nothing specific in my opinion).

[The Mini-Librarian]

Fate you are lucky you hit scum, cuz if you didn't I'd be so pissed that pizza is still walking in this game.

Seriously pizza, start playing the goddamn game.

--

@ Scott

: Besides the last few pages of day one I'd pay most attention to the first time MoI got strung up to L-1. An iso of Benmage might not be a bad idea either. (for interactions)

--

1) What was me 'meta' reasons for voting MoI?

2) Do you deny that a mislynch followed by a town oriented veng kill isn't better than any other form of town mislynch? And did I ever call Fate town? Why is me being scum looking for a twin town kill more likely than me being town who sees a chance to lynch one scum read while potentially killing another 'suspect'? (Granted, I never called Fate 'scum' either... And if I'm honest, my whole scum read on him partially hinged on MoI being scum as well)

Also, I still hold that my scum meta suggests I would shy away from a two town death but I can understand that meaning nothing to you.

1. If I'm not mistaken you were voting MoI for two reasons. The first was that he fakeclaimed. The second was that it made sense to you that he was scum with rat. You justified this by saying it matched what you saw in IGMEOY mafia. It was lazy meta reasoning built to suit your conclusion.

2. First off I don't think lynching other town is better than lynching a vengeful and getting a vengekill. But thankfully that isn't my point. I think lynching scum is better than lynching a vengeful. Now granted you say you thought MoI was scum. But the issue I'm having is that you to add this extra section where you said "well it would be nice to have another flip in this game. And it's Fate! YAY!" Basically the fact that you spent a paragraph or so expounding on a contingency plan reallllllllly bothers me.

(And yes, you'd be right about the self-meta thing. )

[Tammy]

Because I'm out of my depth and I feel drawing a NK will be much better use of myself in this game than struggling to keep up with the game.

I claimed vig because vig is very dangerous to scum. Meaning theyre more likely than not to shoot me. Also, a vig is less likely to CC during the day, choosing instead to shoot at night if anything. that way I'm less likely to out a real town PR. Will talk about Yates in a bit, at the golf course atm.

This was stupid and feels fake. If you want to draw the nightkill, you do it by being active and scumhunting. You do it by making the scum believe you are threat to them. You don't do it by fakeclaiming a role that has the potential to out the real power role through a counterclaim or make it less likely they will be protected.

If you can't make scum believe you are a threat to them through your play, they're not going to think you're a threat to them because you claimed vig. A vig, in and of itself, is not dangerous to scum. Scum aren't going to fear or take out the "vig" if he's not targeting them during the day since most likely that vig is going to end up taking out a town player, which is only beneficial to scum.

If you are town, the fact that you're alive should probably make you think twice about jumping on Yates again today. If you are town, the fact that Fate is dead instead should let you know that either scum didn't buy your claim or they didn't think you were a threat to them.

Your statement that you did it because you feel out of your depth feel really false in light of some of the players here. I'm also wondering if you would have been so quick to admit your little gambit if it weren't for the real vig ending up dead today. Admitting you lied after caught doesn't give you town cred and your reasoning needs work.

[Tammy]

Oh hai everyone! I'm replacing MattP.

I've had a chance to read through the thread real quick. I need to do some ISO's as it's been really hard to get reads for some reason.

Yates and the Mini-Librarian both look good to me. Mini-Librarian for what looks like genuine scum hunting, and Yates for his continued push on MoI on day one - the scum slip thing was frustrating to keep reading about, but Yates really seemed like he believed it and I would expect for him to back down if scum when it became obvious that it wasn't the way he thought it was.

I had a scum read on Pappums rat for most of yesterday, but that started feeling less right as I got nearer to the lynch. I need to ISO him to see if he makes sense for Benmage's partner. There was something that I think I remember reading that made it less likely, so eh.

I also need to ISO Pere as I don't have a read on him. There were a couple things that felt off about his interaction with MoI yesterday so I need to take a closer look to see if it looks like genuine suspicion. MoI's play wasn't as evidently town as I've seen him before, but he didn't look very scummy either.

I was leaning scum on Knox, who was replaced by Zeek, who was replaced by one of my fellow replacements so I'm interested in what he brings.

Pizza and Dr are just going to exist in my wtf territory right now. I'll ISO and try to make sense of them, if possible, when I have the patience.

Leaning scummy town on V2V at the moment. However, I'm a big ball of confused on him. There are things that don't make sense for him as scum, but I'll have to ISO for interactions if any.

Korlash is my best guess for scum though. His interaction with Ben didn't look good. There were lots of quote stripe discussions but a lot of it felt very staged and none of it felt as though they were evaluating each other in order to find scum. The buddying of MoI struck me as off as did the turn around at the end of the day, the "I wish you had been lynched earlier" statement aside. MoI's case on him at the end of the day was strong and Korlash's rebuttal was lacking. Fate's death doesn't look good for Korlash either. I need to double ISO Ben and Korlash to look over their interactions again.

vote: Korlash

[vijay2vasandani]

I didn't know they played golf in Australia.... Huh, learn something new every day...

Did you think at all about the possibility of drawing the vig kill? What about the doc protect?

Well if it's legit enough to draw the doc then it should draw the scum nk. If it does that then at least the scum's kill doesn't go through.

Because I'm out of my depth and I feel drawing a NK will be much better use of myself in this game than struggling to keep up with the game.

I claimed vig because vig is very dangerous to scum. Meaning theyre more likely than not to shoot me. Also, a vig is less likely to CC during the day, choosing instead to shoot at night if anything. that way I'm less likely to out a real town PR. Will talk about Yates in a bit, at the golf course atm.

This was stupid and feels fake. If you want to draw the nightkill, you do it by being active and scumhunting. You do it by making the scum believe you are threat to them. You don't do it by fakeclaiming a role that has the potential to out the real power role through a counterclaim or make it less likely they will be protected.

If you can't make scum believe you are a threat to them through your play, they're not going to think you're a threat to them because you claimed vig. A vig, in and of itself, is not dangerous to scum. Scum aren't going to fear or take out the "vig" if he's not targeting them during the day since most likely that vig is going to end up taking out a town player, which is only beneficial to scum.

If you are town, the fact that you're alive should probably make you think twice about jumping on Yates again today. If you are town, the fact that Fate is dead instead should let you know that either scum didn't buy your claim or they didn't think you were a threat to them.

Your statement that you did it because you feel out of your depth feel really false in light of some of the players here. I'm also wondering if you would have been so quick to admit your little gambit if it weren't for the real vig ending up dead today. Admitting you lied after caught doesn't give you town cred and your reasoning needs work.

Normally, I'd want to do that (be an awesome scumhunter etc) but the fact that I'm out of my depth makes that rather hard don't you think?

By that reasoning Yates probably isn't scum?

And if the vig didn't die, I still would have tried to push the vig claim around. From my POV, why would mafia claim vig? They can't make an extra kill. So what if it makes people think I'm the SK we can deal with it later.

[Korlash]

1. If I'm not mistaken you were voting MoI for two reasons. The first was that he fakeclaimed. The second was that it made sense to you that he was scum with rat. You justified this by saying it matched what you saw in IGMEOY mafia. It was lazy meta reasoning built to suit your conclusion.

I was voting him for two reasons:

Given the invalidity of the claim and his 'kill:fate' gimick, my vote change is pretty much a given. Add in the rest and it just makes sense...

Nothing about Rat sir, nothing... Both reasons were about MoI's play and claim, everything else just 'added up' along with those.

2. First off I don't think lynching other town is better than lynching a vengeful and getting a vengekill. But thankfully that isn't my point. I think lynching scum is better than lynching a vengeful. Now granted you say you thought MoI was scum. But the issue I'm having is that you to add this extra section where you said "well it would be nice to have another flip in this game. And it's Fate! YAY!" Basically the fact that you spent a paragraph or so expounding on a contingency plan reallllllllly bothers me.

You can think whatever you want about it, I honestly don't care at this point. You've essentially just said "Everything you did makes sense but I'm

bothered

you did this..." If all it takes to garner votes from people is them being 'bothered' with me then I'm not going to last very long, trust me on that one.

since I hate brushing people off though: I spend paragraphs on non-game related crap every post... Posting a paragraph on something that is game related is hardly a new habit for me, and yes... The logic behind lynching someone is certainly game related. Am I wrong in saying lynching a scum suspect that has a chance of netting you a town oriented veng kill if you're wrong is better than lynching a scum suspect who wont? Logic. (in addition to evidence of him being scum of course...)

Fate's death doesn't look good for Korlash either.

I can't go through all of that right now, since I have to go to work. rain-check, I promise. But I'll point out this ^

Bullshit... I've been 'on site' for Five years, do you actually think I'm going to kill the one guy leading the charge against me? When it's Fate? Having him alive would have made it less likely I was lynched. This is a very lazy excuse for your vote so I'm hoping the rest is better.

[Korlash]

Fastest raincheck ever! Woohoo!

If you are town, the fact that you're alive should probably make you think twice about jumping on Yates again today. If you are town, the fact that Fate is dead instead should let you know that either scum didn't buy your claim or they didn't think you were a threat to them.

I could comment on all your V2V stuff but I'll leave it to him. I do like this bit though, why are you threatening him to stay away from Yates? And did you have a point to the second part? I'm never against stating the obvious, but combined with the first half it just seems like you're trying to put him down for some reason...

I need to do some ISO's as it's been really hard to get reads for some reason.

Your statement that you did it because you feel out of your depth feel really false in light of some of the players here.

O.o These two just don't seem to add up to me... Couldn't it be possible that the same reson you find it hard to get reads is the same reason another player might feel 'out of their depth'? And what did you mean by 'in light of some of the players here'?

There was something that I think I remember reading that made it less likely, so eh.

Very interested in what this was. V2V aside, Rat is still the only real scum suspect I have so anything connecting or not connecting with Ben would be important.

Korlash is my best guess for scum though. His interaction with Ben didn't look good. There were lots of quote stripe discussions but a lot of it felt very staged and none of it felt as though they were evaluating each other in order to find scum. The buddying of MoI struck me as off as did the turn around at the end of the day, the "I wish you had been lynched earlier" statement aside. MoI's case on him at the end of the day was strong and Korlash's rebuttal was lacking. Fate's death doesn't look good for Korlash either. I need to double ISO Ben and Korlash to look over their interactions again.

Obviously I would like an expansion on this, I understand first post and all that so I know there is more to come but have to say it and all that...

Specifically what about my interaction with Ben. The 'buddying' of MoI is the only thing I've actaully evaluated as a legitimate point against me but since the majority of it came from me having a town read on him all day there shouldn't exist any strong 'buddying' towards him that doesn't also exist elsewhere. (V2V and Ben both would net the same 'buddying' MoI since I know and like them from other games. Your predecessor, The Jester would have gotten equal treatment in that regards had he posted more.) I'm friendly to people I like, keeps game tension down but I suppose causes trouble for me in some cases.

My turnaround on MoI certainly sounds bad in a general sense but if you take the actual reasons behind the switch it becomes a hell of a lot more understandable. If you think player A is town for 90% of a day and then see them commit a foul scummy action, do you neglect voting them simply because of your prior read? No, you evalute your prior read while analysing the new action and come to a new, unbiased, conclusion. Although, you apparently get called at for 'overjustification' when you do this so I don't know what to think anymore... It's a madhouse! A MADHOUSE!

MoI's case on him at the end of the day was strong and Korlash's rebuttal was lacking.

I'd like to see your explination for this. MoI's case was "he fell into my trap" and my rebuttle was "your trap was flawed", it's impossible MoI's case was stronger than my rebuttle since his plan had zero chance to legitimately find scum and my vote on him was based on something we all know to be true. You can think whatever you want about my reasons for voting or my rebuttle to his 'case' but if you actually think his case was 'strong' AND my rebuttle was 'lacking' you're either scum pushing my mislynch or misguided due to MoI's stature(Meaning you didn't bother to actually read either). Unless... You mean to say his case was more than just his 'ploy' in which case I'll need to hear you out before coming to a conclusion.

Final conclusion: You did happen to mention the one legitimate point that could be used against me but the rest of it seems weak and without just cause. I recognize it's just an early replacement read but you choose to add a vote with it so I'm holding you to the standards expected of voteing so I'm eagerly awaiting your explinations for some of these 'conclusions' you've arrived at. You also managed to hit one of my cardinal scum tells in the process so that obviously makes me doubt your intentions as well. Really looking forward to your explinations for some of this stuff.

Well if it's legit enough to draw the doc then it should draw the scum nk. If it does that then at least the scum's kill doesn't go through.

If you had said this five posts ago I would likely have unvoted you for it. Sadly, it took me walking you into it for you to come out with it so I'm not sure how much credit I can give you. Did you actually think about this when you choose to fakeclaim or did you only consider it when I asked about it?

And if the vig didn't die, I still would have tried to push the vig claim around. From my POV, why would mafia claim vig? They can't make an extra kill. So what if it makes people think I'm the SK we can deal with it later.

From your point of view? You can't keep up with the game so you pull a sacrificial move to be of some use to your team? Unlike claiming Cop or Doc, Vig is the one fakeclaim you can claim to have not used and still be considered town for it. Being a claimed power role means you can fakeclaim being RBed, so there is no reason you would even have to perform a kill. I could probably go on if I needed to.

Point is, the argument "why would scum do this?" isn't going to work. Unlike MoI, I'm good at doing gambits and ploys and shit so when I say scum doing what you did given what you've said is perfectly legit, I kinda know what I'm talking about. Don't focus on what Scum wouldn't do, focus on what you DID do since from your point of view you should be town, right? That's all that should be important to you.

And for the sake of all that is holy say everything and anything that is relevant to your claim NOW. If you are town, I cannot afford to keep having to walk you into the right answers since that makes it impossible for me to accurately read you. If you willy-nilly claimed vig, admit to it now. If you thought about ANYTHING before hand, tell me what your conclusions were.

[Korlash]

I should probably delve a little into this scum tell while I'm here..

Fate's death doesn't look good for Korlash either.

Whenever there is a night kill, the first person to say "Player A died, so Player B must be scum" in any form always nets scum points from me. There are always some exceptions, like in a recent game a townie 'sorta' did it so I, as scum, played it off as him pulling the tell and kinda bastardized it sadly. And of course Rat's prior statement about Fate being town kinda pinged it for me, hence my comment, but it certainly falls outside the peramiters of the actual tell.

What you said though, perfectly lines up with it and while you are a replacement, and thus couldn't have been part of making the kill, you still should have access to the scum QT so I can't outright give you a pass on it.

Still, as long as you can accurately explain your stuff on me without it being apparent you're scum pushing for the easy mislynch and provided you have legitimate reason for what I see as a threat on V2V then I think I can overlook it as town compilation and not as scum directing the day.

-For those of you wondering why this is a scum tell, scum often times kill players in an attempt to make other's look bad(Or, they speculate on who to frame for a kill made for other reasons, same situation). When the day begins, these scum are looking for the game to move in that direction so are 'more likely' to mention it. Townies are also capable of mentioning it (Even spot on in some cases. I hold to the fact no scum tell is ever perfect) but due to the wifomness of it, any semi-experienced person would tend not to make that a selling point for their suspicions or vote.(without at least menitoning said wifomness)

Town would also feel less informed about it, so when menitoning it 'should' explain WHY it makes sense for player B to have killed player A. Scum on the other hand, have spent all night discussing it, so the reasons player B killed player A are more obvious and they are less likely to mention it. Thus, I feel scum would 'more likely' say "Player A is dead so Player B is scum" while town would be 'more likely' to say "Player A is dead so Player B is scum because of blank, blank, and blank."

I have very few scum tells I ever put faith in, in fact aside from this one I think I have three others and none of them ever get as much face time as this one does. This one always nets a mention from me when I see it, although this is the first time I can ever remember being on the recieving end of it.