Tammy wrote:*sigh* It seems my lot here at MS is to replace into a game and commit someone's "cardinal scum tell" all while being an innocent.
My motto is you can't be an active townie without committing a few scum tells... But I'm sure you'll agree, better to call them on a townie then to miss them on a scum. I let the resulting discussion determine which is which and hope I can keep smiling when the game is over.
Tammy wrote:Regardless, I never said "Fate's dead, Korlash must be scum." I said Fate's death doesn't look good for you, which it doesn't for good reason. The kill doesn't look good for Pizza either for that matter, but for lesser reasons than for you.
Looking at the night kill and reviewing who it could look bad or good for is something I almost always do... I sometimes drive people nuts with this as some people think looking at the dead is a waste of time, but I think that people don't pay attention to the night kills enough. Sure, it's not an exact science...just like vote count analysis and interaction analysis when searching for partners, but it can still be helpful. Making mention of the night kill and who it does or does not look good for isn't a scum tell for me...it's a Tammy tell. *shrug*
As the guy who practices VCA and Setup Speculation religiously I can understand you, but it doesn't change my feelings on the matter either. Like I said before, I can see it coming from town in this situation so I'm going to be focusing on the rest of your stuff a lot more than I'm focusing on this.
The whole 'Korlash is scum' vs. 'doesn't look good for you'... perhaps I may have over exaggerated, but not very far. From both the game perspective and the tell perspective I find both statements to be nearly equal. I apologize if you feel I was taking you out of context or misconstruing your words, was not my intention.
Tammy wrote:Sure scum can kill people for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes they kill to get rid of a power role, which could apply in this case as Fate did claim a power role during the end of the day discussion with Magna... If they killed Fate for unknown PR over V2V then he should think about his scum read on Yates because they obviously didn't feel like he was a threat... But, they would have had to believe he had a power role which I'm not sure that they did or could have. Because I read the thread knowing that, it's hard for me to decide whether it looked like something that was faked in the interaction between him and MoI when MoI was gambitting about the vengeful thing. So, it's a distinct possibility that they killed Fate because of the possible PR, but with V2V being alive I'm not putting a whole lot of faith in it.
No, Fate tried to play it off as stupid as he could but you combine his claim with the implications it would throw on me and it's fairly certain why the scum choose to kill him. (You even had V2V drawing the doc protect regardless of his alignment so no fear of that on Fate) Those three reasons alone would be enough, but combine that with getting rid of Fate (annoying as hell AND sure to give Benmage a hard time) and his being killed seems fairly obvious.
Yes... You can think about who might have wanted him dead, but there is to much 'proper play' involved with his death. The scum could be everyone Fate called town, they still 'should and would' have killed him given everything I've listed. I'm all for looking at the dead, I sure as hell do it... But you have to remember to look at this type of stuff first. Too much 'proper play' involved, and who might have killed him... sadly... becomes rather moot.
Tammy wrote:Fate doesn't really fit the "low information" kill type as there would have been others who would be better in this instance, so we come to the killing people who are threats...
Eh, that's too short term for me. You also have to account for the three person variable, i.e three scum team most likely so assuming the night kill was made to simply protect ONE person is unlikely. I still hold Ben would have found Fate to be a potential threat (although I bet he would disagree with me) so you could argue two of the three might have found him threatening sure. The idea a nightkill is made to 'protect' anyone or 'get rid of a threat (due to their personal interactions)" is very unlikely while a large scum team is still alive. Once you narrow it down to two or one person, sure... this becomes more likely. As it stands though, with three voices shouting out kill candidates, more likely the kill is made for 'proper play' reasons over 'He suspected me' reasons.
Tammy wrote:However, you made it clear that you knew Fate well, so even the fact that he hadn't made much of an impression in the game doesn't mean that much if you knew that he would be able to read you, so you could view him as a bigger threat than the activity in the thread would lead one to believe. The problem is that he apparently killed Benmage, whom he not once in the thread said was suspicious, so I want to discount that Ben was the driving force behind the nightkill. Therefore, I have to look at who his suspects were, which are you and Pizza, though there is still the possibility Ben wanted Fate out of the way if he thought he could read him in the coming days.
You seem to have a different opinion of Ben on this situation then I do... Fair enough. One of us has to be right I suppose. But I think the fact that Fate KILLED Ben (Yes Yates, I'll argue this with you all day if I have to...) proves he was a threat to Ben. But like I've been saying, you can't really stick to this line of thinking right now given other factors.
Tammy wrote:...But, I've also known killers to kill their biggest threat then complain the next day that they'd been framed, so...
Yeah... you've never met me then. My style of Scum play is to literally no kill all game... I will always choose the less violent path, so killing my biggest threat is almost always out of the question. (Not here though, as I said, proper play would dictate the Fate kill regardless.) In a three person team I would just hand the kill choice off to the others to decide...
I do hope I'm not coming across as complaining though... being able to use one of my scum tells is a joyous occasion and I would hate for it to be ruined by my whining...
Tammy wrote:Town doesn't have to or should explain the wifom behind anything. They don't have to give reasons that are obvious. I often don't when I want to see people's reactions or enter into a conversation with someone. If it's part of a case, sure, then you do that. I gave my impression of what I had read going through the thread for the first time and what I thought about Fate's death. I'm not going to explain it all and have people jump on it and say "that sounds good". If someone agrees with me and votes you for it, then they get to explain why without having all my thoughts to back it up, and if they disagree they get to say why, and then I get to make a determination of them and their motives. I'm not going to do the work for everyone especially when I'm trying to evaluate people and don't have any really solid reads.
I... understand all this... But again, put to practice... doesn't always work. Not saying stuff can make others do their own work... sure... but then again, not saying stuff... means
you aren't saying stuff
... I mean, there has to be a balance I think if you choose to play this way. You still need to accurately explain your own stuff regardless of how much info that might give to others who would otherwise not work themselves.
The whole idea of putting forth the vote, and then following it up with the case throughout the next couple of posts(only way I see this style of yours ultimately playing out), also wouldn't work. That just wastes time and ends up accomplishing the same thing if you just posted the whole case during the vote. The earlier you give your justifications, reasons, and explanations, the earlier you get a response, and the more you squeeze into a single day. Neglecting to mention something for fear others would use it as their own work... Just isn't how this game should be played.
In fact, it denies you a scum hunting opportunity. If you fail to post your entire case, then the scum cannot say "I agree with it, vote: whoever" and you can't go "Ah ha! Parroting without your own content, /iso you scumbag"... See what I'm getting at?
I'm not one to crap over someone's play style, but yours just seems to be against how the town needs discussion to work... which isn't all that great... Just my two cents...
*Ignore all of this if you meant this as a situational thing (i.e. this is how I did it this one time) vs. a standard way of playing/replacing in. I can understand a one time deal thingy as long as you don't make it a norm...
Tammy wrote:Don't really know why you thought it was a selling point. It was part of my reasoning for why you look suspicious, but again not pushing for your lynch...
Don't take my explanation for the scum tell as my own personal views on you. The term 'selling point' was not directed at you, but used as a general statement to define someone committing the tell.
Am I going to give his thoughts a little more weight because he was town and was in the game interacting with you from the start? Sure. It's the same with Fate's last thoughts. Does it mean that I'm going to follow it like it's biblical or something, no. But, it's a good starting point for me.
