[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[izakthegoomba]

I feel like that would be better suited to mish mash, actually.

[Phillammon]

Hm...

MishMash has no modding requirements, so I may well just go try it out, once I've thrown it past some pseudo-reviews, if it would be balanced enough.

What am I talking about, it is by definition balanced. Both sides are identical. Do people agree it's mishmash material?

[izakthegoomba]

The thing is, in theory, it's perfectly balanced. But it's

very

likely to become unbalanced as soon as the townies pick their sides.

[Phillammon]

Also true. Maybe the team with fewer sympathyzers gets a bonus? Such as a goon being upgraded to an alleigance cop?

[quadz08]

I don't think it's fundamentally flawed. I actually like the gambler role as a concept, but it probably needs some refinement.

And the night-lynch is an odd extra concept that you seem to have just thrown in with no thoughts on its effect on gameplay. Keep in mind that a night lynch (which I assume means votes are anonymous) means that scum will vote in a block, which gives them basically an extra nightkill as you get close to MYLO/LYLO territory. Again, not an inherently flawed concept, but it needs work, and maybe they don't belong in the same game right as they're being introduced.

Well what positives are there for the gambler? I'd like your answer.

I think it's inherently a role that weakens the lynch as a town weapon. This is not inherently a bad thing, in and of itself. It just needs to be placed in a setup that's balanced with that in mind (i.e., not this one).

It's an interesting role, that puts a neat twist on the game.

[quadz08]

Also, phil's game. Not really mafia anymore, IMO.

[animorpherv1]

MishMash has no modding requirements, so I may well just go try it out, once I've thrown it past some pseudo-reviews, if it would be balanced enough.

Except for the fact that mafia games aren't allowed in Mish Mash?

[Phillammon]

Yep, but mafia games which are too little like mafia are. Which apparently mine is.

[quadz08]

The definition of mafia I've seen referenced on this site is "informed minority vs. uninformed majority"

Your game does not fit that definition.

[Phillammon]

Point. So It would be Mishmash, and I'd have to think it through a lot more before trying.

[izakthegoomba]

Yeah, mutations are better suited to MM imo.

[Kcdaspot]

None of you people commented on my game.... >_>

[BBmolla]

Taking Sides Multiball

2 Mafia A Goons
2 Mafia B Goons

1 A Hood Cop
1 B Hood Cop
1 Doctor
6 VTs

-Nightstart,
-Both Mafia Groups have a Nightkill, and a Neighbourize. Mafia A wins if Mafia B is wiped out, and vice versa. There are two neighbourhoods, 'hood A and 'hood B. The mafia of each team start off in here, as it is effectively the scum QT. All actions must be PMd in.
-All "Town" aligned roles choose, at the start, a side. They win with this mafia team.
-A Mafia group is wiped out if all of the members of its QT who are aligned with said team are dead.
-Hood Cops determine whether their target is allied with that group, and if they are a member of the neighbourhood.

Sorry if this is a bit garbled, but I *think* the theory is there.

Nothing would happen in the dayphase.

[Phillammon]

Point, again.

[Moneybags]

So guys. I stumbled across the List of Open Games page in the wiki (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... Open_Games) and I counted from game 390 back to game 290, the win rate was 36% Town, 54% Mafia, and 3% Other (with 7% abandoned).
This means out of the past 100 games, mafia has won a little over half of them. This might of already been discussed, but does this seem a little off balanced to anyone?

[callforjudgement]

I don't think this is only the case in Opens; scum has a higher win percentage in every sort of setup.

[Moneybags]

This might be a really stupid question, but wouldn't a 50/50 win rate be ideal?

[Ythan]

People just aren't great at designing balanced games.

[callforjudgement]

I think part of the problem is that games are generally designed for a perfectly logical, competent town who are all trying to win, and that often isn't the case in practice. (Scum can play badly just like town can, but that tends to have less of an effect in practice for some reason.)

[Ythan]

Quantified competence remains elusive.

[callforjudgement]

re Phillamon's setup: doesn't it have the WitP problem, where the optimal play is town massclaim (on the basis that you have more than a 50% chance to be on the larger side, if a townie)? WitP dealt with that using hidden daykills, but I don't see a similar solution here.

[Phillammon]

Had a cool idea, idea still sounded cool in the morning after sleeping on it, so here it is.

Delphi

3x Mafia Goons

4x Oracles
6x Vanilla Townies

-Each Oracle picks a person each night. If that oracle dies that night and they chose a town-aligned player, then the player that they chose becomes mod confirmed town. However, if the oracle is lynched, or they chose a scum-aligned player, then no such confirmation occurs.
-Scum have a factional nightkill, and a 1-Shot factional janitor/roleblock that can be used to cause a no-flip on that night's kill, as well as roleblocking them if they are an oracle.[/area]

What do people think? I realize that hypoclaims might mess it up a little, but that could be averted by clever scum, surely?

[Kublai Khan]

-All "Town" aligned roles choose, at the start, a side. They win with this mafia team.
-A Mafia group is wiped out if all of the members of its QT who are aligned with said team are dead.

Why pick sides? Why not just assign half the game to one side and the other half to the other side? Any imbalance in the number of players on each side just leads to an imbalanced game.

The daypart is a bit of a waste. Nobody is going to want to lynch somebody on their "side" (which they either know everyone on their side through the neighborhood or through massclaiming), so there's never going to be a majority to lynch with. They it just becomes a game of "how accurate is their night-kill" as they try to kill the two mafia members during the night phases.

You can make lynches possible by having 3 mafia groups and/or maybe some sort of independent group who is looking to eliminate both mafia groups.

[Phillammon]

Yeah, that setup is now officially dead, I think...

[IceGuy]

I realize that hypoclaims might mess it up a little, but that could be averted by clever scum, surely?

I don't see how scum could do that (except for the 1-shot janitor/RB).

If somebody flips Oracle and claimed to target player X, and player X isn't named conftown by the mod, X is scum. Keep in mind that if there is a strategy to mess with hypoclaims, it's usually one of the two: either an action that somehow invalidates the result silently, or a way for scum where hypoclaims and results combined with the knowledge of scum leads to a way to find out which hypoclaims are genuine and which aren't. Your setup provides none of those: The invalidation is always public (no flip) and the only way to find out which hypoclaims are genuine is after the flip, at which point town will have the same information.