Heroes of Comedy Game Over - He who laughs last!

[Korlash]

@ Korlash: because if I'm out of my depth. You guys (MoI and you mostly) post a fair amount, and there was a lot of meta referenced that I could not be bothered to read. From my POV, if I drew the night kill it wouldn't be a waste because a VT dying is better than a PR, and a blocked kill is even better.

Who are you voting for and why? You say you like Tammy, so I assume you think he(she?) is town here, so I don't get why you guys are still arguing.

I wish you would just read my mind so you know what I'm asking you when I ask these questions so you can answer me in the direction I intended you to go... I want to know what made you think fakeclaiming would be a good route to take to draw the night kill. At this point, I doubt you'll give the answer I was looking for so I'm just going to give in.

In IGMEOY, you claimed 'powerrole' day one and died night one. I can believe experiences like this among others might have lead you to legitimately see fakeclaiiming as a strategy. (it worked before, let's see if I can do it again.) I forget if you claimed anything in Redwall but I know RBT wanted to kill you for something so if that game had anything to do with it, I wanted to know as well.

Point is, I can see you (as town) legitimately thinking this could be a workable strategy based on recent games and how they worked out. But... Since I'm the one that said it it means a lot less

I'm voting you (Give me a day or two, I have Wednesday off so either tomorrow night or later the next day, and you'll see where I'm going with it.). I do like Tammy, as I like you, but my feeling towards you and her as players holds no sway over my opinions of your alignments. The only person I ever let my opinion of influence my reads is Fate.(And even then it's half joking anyway) I haven't come to a conclusion on Tammy yet for the simple fact I need more from her.

Oh Korlash I have a bit of a hangover so I'll respond to you when my head stops being all poundy.

Aye, good thinking. I tend to make people's heads all poundy on my own. Don't need it compiling with other influences... As it stands, I have a lot to go over tomorrow so I'm not complaining if you take your time.

Vijay wanted to die at Night by claiming Vigilante?? Does that mean you don't mind getting lynched as well?

Is this a serious question? What do you think his answer to it is going to add to the game that's relevant to anything?

[vijay2vasandani]

^ not sure if serious. Isn't that like obvious? But whatever. Now trust me on this. Yates is scum. I'm sure. Well sort of.

[Tammy]

Tralalala...building walls...building walls...

@676: I'm going to need you to commit to an explanation of this. While I think I know what you're getting at and my response would be "I don't think you understand the meaning behind my 672 and my 662 was made 'from Fates point of view and not my own'" I will need to know your exact feelings on them before I know if it's a simple misunderstanding or not. =D thanks...

In post 662, you're saying that Fate killed Ben because even though he found both of you suspicious, you would be easier to lynch. (I actually think it's a toss up; Ben was looking really scummy by the end of the day. I know confirmation bias and all...) But then in 672 you say that with Fate being alive you would be less likely to be lynched. How would that be if he thought you were scum? Wouldn't he push for your lynch? I don't know how him being alive, and suspecting you, would make it less likely that you would be lynched especially since you say you would be easier to lynch than Ben.

But, I love this little gem. I'm threatening him? ...I told him he should think twice about jumping back on the target he was stuck on yesterday in light of the evidence. Doesn't mean he has to stay away from Yates... It just means he should be reconsidering things. If he comes to the same conclusion, fine, but he should still be thinking things through, which he doesn't appear to be doing.

Which is fine, but you didn't actually say any of this the first time around and combined with the 'if you're town' portion it easily reads as a type of threat.

Unfortunately, this bit about Yates means nothing. I could explain a possibility of V2V being alive even if Yates is scum with two simple letters, so this whole "reevaluate and think twice about everything before you vote him again!!!!"* just seems out of place and ungrounded.

I still don't know how anyone can perceive any of that as a threat. A person, as town, should always be reconsidering things in light of flips and evidence. I think my statement was pretty self-explanatory. The 'if you're town' is nothing more than a conditional clause expressing my lack of knowledge for the factual situation. If he's not town, then he has nothing to rethink at all because he's following through with his plan.

As far as V2V being alive and the reasons for it, you're presuming me to have knowledge I don't have. I have no prior game experience with anyone in this game except MoI and Peregrine, so while it might seem ungrounded to you it's not to me. If things aren't the way I imagined them to be, that's fine, I have no problem being wrong and reevaluating once I have more information.

The presence of other 'weak' (and I use this non-insultingly people...) players does not excuse the presence of strong players. You cannot play the game with only half the player pool, so that point is irrelevant. Being comfortable with me is only natural, I'm cool and exciting and throw sexy parties that V2V is invited to, doesn't change the fact that this game quickly fills up with content. Now I love it personally, that's what I'm here for... But, and this is hard to believe, some people just can't handle it (I know right, I don't know what's wrong with them, maybe they are from the moon... or like, lived under a rock for a period in their teens...). I'm not saying that makes them town, I've already explained to V2V how this same feeling could come from scum, but I feel it's a bit far to actually dismiss the statement "I feel out of my depth" in a game like this. That being said...

If he has said it multiple times and you feel it is disgenuine due to overusage, timing, etc, etc, etc... Then cool, run with that. That at least has some basis and merit. But don't project your own feelings toward the game onto others and hold them to that, i.e. just because you don't feel out of your depth, you can't immediately dismiss others who don't share your feelings. Savy?

On a side note: You can't really demonstrate your innocence if you feel the game is passing you by... it's barely possible to do that while keeping up, hell look at me, I'm proof enough of that... What you say sounds great in a perfect world... but put to practice... Impossible...

Meh. Most games fill up quickly with content, and that argument might work better if someone had next to no experience in a game. This game doesn't have

that

much content. It's a small game, so unless he's saying that he never plays in larger games in which there is much more content to sift through then it doesn't really pan out. It didn't feel genuine, and there's nothing wrong with looking at the player list to see if there's a reason one should feel that way. If there were 10 players like MoI on the list, okay I can get behind that, but there aren't. There's a varying player list here; maybe he could feel intimidated or out of his depth by a couple of you but it felt false in light of the spread of players.

Besides, I don't hold other people to my own feelings toward the game nor do I expect them to have the same level of confidence or depth or whatever in interacting with others or whatever it is that is necessary to play this game. You do remember why the whole comparison came about right? You are the one who drew a comparison between the two. You said that my statement that his feeling lost in light of the player list here didn't add up to my statement concerning it being hard for me to get reads. They were from two separate posts. You made me compare myself to him. You can't now, after making me compare myself to him for what were two separate feelings, tell me that it's wrong to project my feelings onto someone else when you did the projecting in the first place. You are constructing the conversation in the way you wanted it to go which inevitably had this outcome so that you could then tell me it's wrong for me to do something you asked me to do.

As far as not being able to demonstrate your innocence. Eh that may have some basis but it doesn't have anything to do with a game passing you by. And, see here is where you're projecting yourself onto someone else. Some people have the ability to demonstrate their innocence much easier than others. It's a skill...or a talent...don't really know what you call it, but some people look suspicious no matter what they do and some don't. So while you might be keeping up in the game and garnering suspicion, it doesn't follow that someone else will garner a similar amount of suspicion because they are or aren't keeping up. A person can always try to do their best in their own capacity and others can read him based on that, but just saying that they feel out of their depth, meh.

...I didn't like your reasoning for your turn around.

You didn't like that I thought he was fakeclaiming and didn't see any pro-town action in posting in thread what he should have PMed to the mod? Hmmm... Well, I guess that's your prerogative but... Put in the same situation I can't really see too many other people making a different choice then I did... I mean short of knowing the way it turned out, 99% of people given an approaching deadline and an 'obv' fakeclaim from the guy with the biggest wagon would vote him... (And don't take this the wrong way, I don't remember deadline having anything to do with my vote switch, just putting it in perspective.)

No, but for someone who says they do setup speculation, it seems rather odd that you would buy a scum vengeful for one, and that you would immediately jump to it being a scum gambit for two. *Now, here is where I might unfairly project myself onto someone else.* You said you had a town read on him for 90% of the game up to that point. I'm a bit lost on why it didn't enter your mind that it was a town gambit if you'd had a town read on him. Why did you automatically jump to it being a scum gambit?

I could see if it was someone you were leaning scum on or unsure about or hell even had a townish feeling for, but for someone you'd read as town for a good portion of the game? I guess this is where I'm lost. When I have a town read on someone, it doesn't get lost because they pull a gambit, or because they do something that might be scummy, or because they make a bad post because when I have a town read on someone I have some belief that what they're doing has town motivation or are just making a mistake. You know? Maybe I hold onto my town reads too strongly sometimes, meh.

That's not even my biggest problem with the whole thing. He came clean in Post 588. The hammer came in post 621. You all talked. Why didn't it cross your mind that he was in fact innocent and was committing a town gambit? It's very rare for scum to actually admit to their lies especially when they don't actually have to. I just don't see the scum motivation for him to go "J/K I'm VT" at the end of the day, especially for someone that you admit to have had a town read on up until the gambit or just before. Whether or not you liked the gambit is one thing; I do think it has its flaws, but I'm trying to figure out where you saw the scum motivation in it.

I think of this situation as the 1v1 and not the trap... So I just want to make sure you haven't confused the two.

Kay.

I'm not trying to push through your lynch. I voted you and said you were my best guess for scum... I wanted to interact with you and see how you responded to me as you were someone I kept thinking was scum on and off while reading the thread. As I said earlier, I get my reads more from interaction than through reading, so...

eh, I've been playing this game for a long time. Voting someone and 'pushing their lynch' mean essentially the exact same thing until you get to specific scenarios. I tend to use them interchangeably but I mean no implications by it. Point is, when you vote someone (especially later on the wagon) you are 'forwarding their lynch' even if that isn't your intention. As the voter, you need to recognize this and be aware of it regardless of if you want the lynch to go through at the moment or not. But this is all game theory and irrelevant so I'll move on...

I'm all for reading through interactions, that's my preferred style as well (although sometimes you have to make due...) and it even works out with the attention on me because I get my reads best when people are attacking me and I can rebuttal their attacks without people lobbing the dumb 'chainsaw defense' accusations my way and wasting all my time. And I'll be honest, very pleasant talking with you... Looking forward to more of this... =DD

Okay yes, you've been playing this game a lot longer than I have. I've been playing it a bit longer than my start date here as I play somewhere else, but meh. Here's the thing. You don't know this because you don't know me, but I'm quite a deliberate and analytical player who is an annoyingly cautious voter in most games. I'm one of those people who tends to hold onto their vote and leave it where I place it once I finally do vote until I move it at deadline if need be. I tend to get lectured for it by someone in almost every game I do it in, which because I'm stubborn also delays my vote even longer. Yeah, I'm a

fucking pain in the ass

joy to play with. I do this bit of self-meta dance because when I say that I'm not pushing through your lynch it actually means something. It's against my nature to vote right away, but interacting with you to try to determine your alignment, especially in light of the end of yesterday was more important than me being careful. Though I still was. I made sure you wouldn't be in danger of getting lynched quickly, and quite frankly if my vote would have put you over half way to lynch, I wouldn't have done it. I'm confident that you're not getting lynched right now therefore I'm not worried about it.

Yeah well you guys sure do have a lot of buzzwords around here: appeal to whatever, burden of meh, chainsaw defense or whathaveyou. I just prefer to

be condescending and tell people why they're wrong

have conversations and evaluate people that way. But, pleasant talking with you as well. My head's pounding again, I'll respond to your other post in the next day or so...maybe tomorrow.

[Yates]

Chapter 1. - Buzzwords

Scott - you are breaking my heart. I liked Knox and was sad to see her getting replaced out. Then I was happy again when I saw her replacement was Zeek, who I know from other games. Then I was sad again to see him getting replaced out. Then, I see a fella by the name of SCOTT MF-ING BROSIUS replace in and I got partial chub [as a life-long Yankee fan and admirer of the patented Brosius barehanded scoop throw]. Then you crushed my soul by voting for me without providing a reason.

I sob in obvious AtE

. Why me? WHY ME??? No. Seriously. VJ is tunneling me, I get that and obviously just have to deal with it. What is your motivation for voting Yates?

Now with the

OMGUS

done, it's

time to buddy

. Tammy has jumped in and quickly become my hero and 3rd obvTown [along with Rat, and Mini Librarian - I actually made these statements yesterday all by myself without needing to be

sheeped

!]. I find myself nodding in agreement with nearly EVERYTHING she says. Maybe it's because I agree with her. Maybe it's because I completely understand her playing style and how she arrives at these reads. Fact is, all of a sudden I see the logic returning to this game which makes it infinately more fun for me. I will make sure

anyone

voting for any of these three today die in some horrible manner [

AtF

?]!!!

What buzzword am I missing? Chainsaw? I'll need to work that one out...

Chapter 2. - Regarding Korlash

First, I'll show you two things that bother me about Korlash.

1.He calls people out for doing stuff

he does himself

!!! Case in point:

Vote: V2V

If you notice, I have yet to call for his [VJ's] lynch.

Voting someone and 'pushing their lynch' mean essentially the exact same thing

What? You aren't calling for VJ's lynch - even though you voted for him - but TAMMY simply *has* to be pushing a lynch for the simple fact that she has voted? You can't have it both ways.


2. I'm also trying to understand why he makes illogical leaps in judgement. For example:

why are you threatening him to stay away from Yates?

In no reasonable Universe does this:

If you are town, the fact that you're alive should probably make you think twice about jumping on Yates again today. If you are town, the fact that Fate is dead instead should let you know that either scum didn't buy your claim or they didn't think you were a threat to them.

equate to a threat. I realize that he

could be

trying to see how people respond to these needles. The net effect, though, is that it's just annoying and leads to arguments about things seemingly unrelated to the actual game itself. This is a point I was trying to enunciate yesterday.

Here's the thing about the Korlash wagon - I don't find Town motivation in nearly anything he says or does and honestly started thinking I was the only one perplexed by his playing style. As much as I would like to see him leave the game, I just can't justify a vote on him because he hasn't done anything obviously scummy enough. All I have is speculation and gut feeling, and that isn't enough for me to vote to lynch someone. If someone can build a case on Korlash that isn't based on gut, wifom, and setup speculation I'd be happy to listen.

Chapter 3. - The Wrath of VJ

Pappums saying that Korlash's vote on VJ is without merit is simply an untrue statement. While I have a Town read on Pappums, I'm not understanding his logic or accusation. It is a fact that VJ lied about a power role. *You* may not think that's scummy enough on its own, but that's absolutely a legitimate reason to find someone scummy.

*I* obviously have plenty of motivation to want VJ dead based solely on his tunneling for two days straight, but that's not enough of a reason to vote for someone so here's the rest of it...

1. In the irony of ironies, I find VJ scummy for exactly the same reason he pretends to be calling ME scummy. He claims to be voting for me because I "faked" or "embellished upon" my read/interpretation of MoI's statement [the ancient scum-slip debate]. Part of the reason I am voting for VJ is because I think he is fabricating/embellishing upon that whole line of logic. I can envision how the night chat went down and would be willing to bet money that scum want me to be a distraction/tempting lynch target based on yesterday's events. Instead, I am not going to play in to that game and I'm going to leave it alone.

2. Do an ISO on VJ and tell me why he hammered MoI. I'll wait here while you find the answer.
[Montage of clocks moving forward in time as they fly past your head]
That's what I thought. There is NO REASON. If you are going to hammer someone, wouldn't you give at least ONE reason you find that person scummy?

3. When his softclaim flipped overnight, he was asked:

Idc really. We lynch somebody, I shoot Yates, they shoot me, I die and don't embarrass myself XD

Fate is vig, so explain this quote.

His response?

Wouldnt you like to know. XD

I lied. An obvious attempt to draw the NK.

I have already discussed how this is a poorly conceived load of crap. The scum angle on this has also been laid out. I'd like to know the TOWN angle for fakeclaiming a PR and risking outing the real PR and drawing a night protect on a VT [VJ's current softclaim] instead of on another potential PR. The only thing this does is give him a reason to be alive each day if he is scum ["woe is me! I'm out of my element with all these great players! Why would scum kill me? I'm just a lowly VT who tried to save the Town N1. I swear!"]. There is literally not ONE thing I like about this gambit.

VJ is scum.


I think there was more I wanted to comment on but I'll have to get back to it.

[vijay2vasandani]

@ Yates: you missed a couple of buzzwords, like whiteknighting, IioA, and buzzwording itself. Regarding me, I'm sorry to inform you that you'd lose all the money you bet. But how about we leave it like this. You think I'm scum, I think you're scum. We'll see who the town decides to lynch.

What's the scum angle for claiming vig again?

[Yates]

What's the scum angle for claiming vig again?

Let's see...

1. Potentially drawing out the REAL vig - who would be a major bane to scum? Check.
2. Draw a night protect from Doc thus allowing all scum kill actions to go through? Check.
3. Setting up your scum defense? Check.

Bonus - may not apply in this particular game but worth mentioning - Explaining why an investigator might find you with a weapon? Check.

[drmyshotgun]

Totally agree with Yates there.

[The Mini-Librarian]

@Korlash: I just read that vengekill paragraph I wrote again. Yeah, that was a mess. Let's try this again, this time with less rambling.

Here's the main point: I find the contingency plan in and of itself scummy, since if you think he's scum there would be no shot. A contingency plan, especially one that calls for death of my town read then, now confirmed town, is especially suspect.

That's the gist of what I'm saying. The rest is probably best kept in the tangles of my mind...

--

@Yates: Do you think Vijay is scum with Korlash?

[Korlash]

In post 662, you're saying that Fate killed Ben because even though he found both of you suspicious, you would be easier to lynch. (I actually think it's a toss up; Ben was looking really scummy by the end of the day. I know confirmation bias and all...) But then in 672 you say that with Fate being alive you would be less likely to be lynched. How would that be if he thought you were scum? Wouldn't he push for your lynch? I don't know how him being alive, and suspecting you, would make it less likely that you would be lynched especially since you say you would be easier to lynch than Ben.

I consider Fate to be a detriment to whatever wagon he is on, so him being alive 'pushing me' makes me more likely to survive. It might be a strange concept to understand but it's my opinion of him. (Look at my statement yesterday about "not wanting to vote with him" for more examples.)

And to delve deeper into the realm of thought, Just because I believe something 'from Fate's perspective' doesn't mean I have to believe it from my own. While I think it would have looked 'easier to lynch me' from his point of view, I would consider it harder from my own for him to get me lynched. (Although... I would have considered it harder to get Ben lynched as well... As I said, he's a detriment to whatever wagon he's on...)

I still don't know how anyone can perceive any of that as a threat. A person, as town, should always be reconsidering things in light of flips and evidence. I think my statement was pretty self-explanatory. The 'if you're town' is nothing more than a conditional clause expressing my lack of knowledge for the factual situation. If he's not town, then he has nothing to rethink at all because he's following through with his plan.

As far as V2V being alive and the reasons for it, you're presuming me to have knowledge I don't have. I have no prior game experience with anyone in this game except MoI and Peregrine, so while it might seem ungrounded to you it's not to me. If things aren't the way I imagined them to be, that's fine, I have no problem being wrong and reevaluating once I have more information.

Per the threat: We can go around in circles on this topic it seems for quite a while so I'll stop it now. Just now that what you said COULD very easily have had threatening undertones and since it lacked at the time the amount of detail you have since provided there was no reason not to call it out as such for two very simple reasons. (The first being in a game of mafia you always call out the suspicious instead of assuming the non, and the second being the reactions to it would be a lot better than the reaction to not. [case in point, had I not called it a threat, Yates wouldn't have likely weighed in on it like he has. - as example])

Per V2V: What am I presuming? I wasn't talking meta, I was talking common game knowledge... I'm going to assume by your reaction then that you have not thoguht about the same thing I have which tells me one of two things... (three) Either you're town or your scum and my thoughts don't exist. (Or you're a bloody good actress...)

...

It didn't feel genuine

... If there were 10 players like MoI on the list, okay I can get behind that, but there aren't. There's a varying player list here; maybe he could feel intimidated or out of his depth by a couple of you but it felt false in light of the spread of players.

Fair enough...

(I was about to propose an argument to the player list part but I decided against it. I'd rather see where you end up going with this in all honesty. Who am I to step in the middle of things...)

... You do remember why the whole comparison came about right?... You said that my statement that his feeling lost in light of the player list here didn't add up to my statement concerning it being hard for me to get reads... You made me compare myself to him. You can't now, after making me compare myself to him for what were two separate feelings, tell me that it's wrong to project my feelings onto someone else when you did the projecting in the first place. You are constructing the conversation in the way you wanted it to go which inevitably had this outcome so that you could then tell me it's wrong for me to do something you asked me to do.

I never asked you to compare yourself to him, I asked you if your hardship for getting reads might be a possible reason others are having a hard time in the game as well. Your answer, in short version, was no. Thus, 'comparison' over. You took the opportunity to illustrate your own reasoning on why V2V 'shouldn't feel out of his depth'.

Now if you felt like I was asking you to compare yourself to him, fine. Misunderstandings all around... HOWEVER... You clearly doubted V2V's 'out of depth' BEFORE I 'compared' the two of you... Thus, you had to have had reasons or explanations BEFORE I 'compared' the two of you... So... Either, what you've said here aren't your legitimate feelings (i.e. My input influenced them by 'making you compare yourself to him') which begs the question, why say them at all? OR... You are simply using this as an excuse to shift the spotlight onto me...

So, since I'm confused I'll ask you to explain it to me:

Don't know how he could feel out of his depth when there are players like Pizzadudes and Drmysthotgun in the game. Since he seems to be comfortable playing with you, I don't understand it either as it should make up for any intimidation he feels playing with any other stronger players... He said it early on too, and something about it doesn't feel genuine. Even if you feel like you're a weaker player and not great at scumhunting, one thing you can do is demonstrate your innocence so that you're taken out of the equation for who the scum is...

Are these your legitimate feelings on V2V or is this something I 'forced' you into saying?

...And, see here is where you're projecting yourself onto someone else...

No, here was me using myself as an example...

The rest of this paragraph is a mismash of nothing tangible really. If 'projecting one's innocence' is a skill or talent, then you can't very well call V2V out for not having done it. That would be like calling someone out for not juggling chainsaws... Sure, some people can do it well... But I wouldn't waste my time (or my precious arms). If some people 'look suspicious' and some don't 'no matter what they do' then it serves no point to actually 'do' anything does it? Lastly, how do you 'try to do your best' in a game that's passing you by? back to my chainsaw analogy... It's all well and good to say "try it Korlash" but I'm not exactly going to know where to begin, how to start, or what the hell I'm suppose to do in order to even attempt to 'try'...

The 'meh' at the end of this paragraph summed it up precisely. (side notes, gotta love em =D)

No, but for someone who says they do setup speculation, it seems rather odd that you would buy a scum vengeful for one, and that you would immediately jump to it being a scum gambit for two. *Now, here is where I might unfairly project myself onto someone else.* You said you had a town read on him for 90% of the game up to that point. I'm a bit lost on why it didn't enter your mind that it was a town gambit if you'd had a town read on him. Why did you automatically jump to it being a scum gambit?

I never bought a scum veng, I simply hedged my bets and asked our claimed vig to 'play it safe'. I may put a lot of faith in my abilities, but I'm not about to let the cop be the first person to walk into the room marked 'free cookies'. I'd rather lose to being over caution than lose for doing something stupid. (I'd also rather win, and you win more being cautious...)

And I didn't 'immediately jump to it being a scum gambit'. That's point two of my reasons for voting. MoI's posting in thread of his 'kill fate' is not a town move, combine it with a fakeclaim and the obvious outcome is 'scum gambit'. You can rationalize it all you want (especially in retrospect) but I saw no reason for town to do that.

You do also see how much I've gone into about how MoI's plan was stupid and had no chance of actually finding scum right? The speculation of it being a town gambit went like this: "If MoI is town, what he is doing serves no purpose other than to lynch him quicker." At the time, It didn't even occur to me it might be some way to 'catch scum' because there existed no way to 'catch scum', so the funny thing is I couldn't even speculate on what MoI was actually doing because what he was doing made zero fucking sense. Something that makes no sense does not enter into to speculation because it is deemed 'impossible or unlikely to happen' due to it serving no legitimate purpose.

...When I have a town read on someone, it doesn't get lost because they pull a gambit, or because they do something that might be scummy, or because they make a bad post because when I have a town read on someone I have some belief that what they're doing has town motivation or are just making a mistake...

If you have a town read that ends up fakeclaiming in a scummy way and you DON'T reevalute that read completely... I feel very sad for you...

I may disagree and want to kick everyone who has accused me of 'overjustification' on my vote, but I did put a lot of thought into it before I made it. My town read on MoI got lost because he did something only scum should have done and I evaluated it as such.

That's not even my biggest problem with the whole thing. He came clean in Post 588. The hammer came in post 621. You all talked. Why didn't it cross your mind that he was in fact innocent and was committing a town gambit? It's very rare for scum to actually admit to their lies especially when they don't actually have to. I just don't see the scum motivation for him to go "J/K I'm VT" at the end of the day, especially for someone that you admit to have had a town read on up until the gambit or just before. Whether or not you liked the gambit is one thing; I do think it has its flaws, but I'm trying to figure out where you saw the scum motivation in it.

A) I had called him on his fakeclaim before he came clean. he was dead at that point so admitting it was his only option (if scum). At least the way he did it meant he could POSSIBLY force my mislynch. Why didn't I consider this a town gambit? Because it was an obvious attempt at my mislynch. (from my perspective)

B) Why didn't it cross my mind? I argued the entire time his plan made no sense, had no town motivation, and what he claimed had zero chance of being accurate. Of course it crossed my mind, I can't argue what I did if it hadn't. However, it made... and I know you're getting tired off this by now.. ZERO FUCKING SENSE. How can you sit there and actually say it never crossed my mind with a straight face?

Okay yes, you've been playing this game a lot longer than I have. I've been playing it a bit longer than my start date here as I play somewhere else, but meh.

I played it for two years before I came here. /flex

Here's the thing. You don't know this because you don't know me, but I'm quite a deliberate and analytical player who is an annoyingly cautious voter in most games. I'm one of those people who tends to hold onto their vote and leave it where I place it once I finally do vote until I move it at deadline if need be. I tend to get lectured for it by someone in almost every game I do it in, which because I'm stubborn also delays my vote even longer. Yeah, I'm a fucking pain in the ass joy to play with. I do this bit of self-meta dance because when I say that I'm not pushing through your lynch it actually means something. It's against my nature to vote right away, but interacting with you to try to determine your alignment, especially in light of the end of yesterday was more important than me being careful. Though I still was. I made sure you wouldn't be in danger of getting lynched quickly, and quite frankly if my vote would have put you over half way to lynch, I wouldn't have done it. I'm confident that you're not getting lynched right now therefore I'm not worried about it.

Obviously our definitions differ and as I said it's all pointlessly irrelevant anyways...

Actually... I just went back trying to find where I ever said you were 'pushing my lynch'... Couldn't find it... I blame MoI somehow... Can you point this out for me? I feel we have somehow lost track of the original point and I would like to return to it...

[Tammy]

Still, as long as you can accurately explain your stuff on me without it being apparent you're scum pushing for the easy mislynch

and provided you have legitimate reason for what I see as a threat on V2V then I think I can overlook it as town compilation and not as scum directing the day.

[Korlash]

What? You aren't calling for VJ's lynch - even though you voted for him - but TAMMY simply *has* to be pushing a lynch for the simple fact that she has voted? You can't have it both ways.

A couple things here Bill:

1)

Call

for a lynch, and

push

a lynch... two different things. To

push

for a lynch suggests you are actively doing something that contributes to the possibility of the lynch occurring. As a vote does in fact bring the lynch closer to fruition, it is defined as 'pushing a lynch'. To

call

for a lynch means to verbally request either A: Additional votes be placed on the person or B: The person actually be lynched (Hammered, killed, burned, die scum die, etc...) Calling for a lynch is a significantly more drastic step as it marks the 'point of no return'. One's push (or vote if you will) can be used for all sorts of things: Pressure, information, reaction testing, etc... However, once you call for their lynch you have actually committed to the player's death. i.e. all the information gained through your 'push' has resulted in the conclusion that the player is scum and must die.

2) You have taken both my response to Rat and my response to Tammy out of context. Rat specifically asked if I was 'for lynch all liars' so my 'I never called for his lynch" held the implication of (For lying) after it. My response to Tammy was already one of semantics yet you have suggested It meant more via the 'she *has* to...' portion.

3) Rat has a history this game of accusing people of shit and refusing to back it up. If the opportunity arose to be hypocritical and I felt it would lead to Rat contributing more... I would take it.

2. I'm also trying to understand why he makes illogical leaps in judgement. For example:

Really? Did you think I got this title for something else then? =D

equate to a threat. I realize that he could be trying to see how people respond to these needles. The net effect, though, is that it's just annoying and leads to arguments about things seemingly unrelated to the actual game itself. This is a point I was trying to enunciate yesterday.

I'll defend to the death that what she said could easily be taken as a threat. I'll grant you though that it does sorta imply the two of you would have to be scum together, so I can certainly understand how you fail to see it that way.

Here's the thing about the Korlash wagon - I don't find Town motivation in nearly anything he says or does and honestly started thinking I was the only one perplexed by his playing style. As much as I would like to see him leave the game,

I just can't justify a vote on him because he hasn't done anything obviously scummy enough

. All I have is speculation and gut feeling, and that isn't enough for me to vote to lynch someone. If someone can build a case on Korlash that isn't based on gut, wifom, and setup speculation I'd be happy to listen.

...

this is based heavily on the fact that I believe Korlash is scum.

Agreed.

Explain please...

[Korlash]

Still, as long as you can accurately explain your stuff on me without it being apparent you're scum pushing for the easy mislynch

and provided you have legitimate reason for what I see as a threat on V2V then I think I can overlook it as town compilation and not as scum directing the day.

So I never actually accused you of it then.... wait...

Trust me, when I decide I want to push through a lynch, it definitely doesn't look like me going "well, he's my best guess and stuff, but I need to re-read his iso."

Why did you feel the need to assure me you weren't 'pushing my lynch' when my statement of 'pushing my lynch' was preceded by 'it being apparent you're scum"?

Did you just admit to being scum? D=

I honestly don't know what the fuck just happened...

[Tammy]

Of course I just admitted to being scum...What? In what universe do you come to that conclusion? You suggest there's a possibility I'm scum pushing through your mislynch, if that's what it is. I tell you that I'm not pushing through your lynch. Ergo I can't be scum according to your setup.

You wrote an entire scenario about how I fit your scum tell, I responded. Reason and logic would dictate that I picked up on the "pushing your lynch" because you were predicating it on me being possible scum from the get go. You were suggesting regardless that I was pushing your lynch, it doesn't matter my alignment.

You don't know what happened? You think you caught scum making a mistake. Nice try. You didn't.

[Korlash]

*You* may not think that's scummy enough on its own, but that's absolutely a legitimate reason to find someone scummy.

lolololol...

Sorry... Last person I saw use this logic was... um... That guy who voted MoI for fakeclaiming a power role... Can't remember what his name was... Good looking fella though... Just find it funny how history has a way of repeating itself...

Rest of your V2V stuff seems sound enough so good show there.

3. Setting up your scum defense? Check.

I agree with the other two, but can you explain this one more. What do you mean by it?

Here's the main point: I find the contingency plan in and of itself scummy, since if you think he's scum there would be no shot. A contingency plan, especially one that calls for death of my town read then, now confirmed town, is especially suspect.

Do you deny that speculating on worst case scenarios before making a move 'could' be beneficial? Do you deny that speculating on yourself being wrong could help you look at any conclusions or decisions you've made from another angle and thus lead to a more accurate one?

If you answer yes to those, then a 'contingency plan' is just what naturally forms from that speculation. (in fact, it isn't even a plan really since it hinged on an action MoI took himself and not something I could physically do. It was more like a.... contingency event...)

And the 'contingency plan' didn't call for the death of MoI... His fakeclaim did... Don't forget that. The 'plan' simply 'assumed' his alignment was the opposite of what I thought it was AFTER he died. (i.e. he was already dead before the 'plan' would have hypothetically been kicked into action.)

[Korlash]

...You suggest there's a possibility I'm scum pushing through your mislynch, if that's what it is. I tell you that I'm not pushing through your lynch. Ergo I can't be scum according to your setup.

That's one way to look at it... The phrasing still seems weird to me... The extent to which we argued it as well...although I attribute that entirely to us just both loving to talk about stuff and things...

You wrote an entire scenario about how I fit your scum tell, I responded. Reason and logic would dictate that I picked up on the "pushing your lynch" because you were predicating it on me being possible scum from the get go. You were suggesting regardless that I was pushing your lynch, it doesn't matter my alignment.

Providing I'm understanding you here, this makes more sense.

You don't know what happened? You think you caught scum making a mistake. Nice try. You didn't.

No, I assumed I misunderstood you in some way. if I had thought I had caught you I wouldn't have been so confused...

[vijay2vasandani]

What's the scum angle for claiming vig again?

Let's see...

1. Potentially drawing out the REAL vig - who would be a major bane to scum? Check.
2. Draw a night protect from Doc thus allowing all scum kill actions to go through? Check.
3. Setting up your scum defense? Check.

Bonus - may not apply in this particular game but worth mentioning - Explaining why an investigator might find you with a weapon? Check.

Okay.
1. Vigs cc with a bullet, not by ccing during the day. Do you think I'd want that to happen as scum?
2. Night protect seems like a legit reason but is a minimal point imo. Honestly, what do you think is a doctor's save percentage?
3. What does this mean?

Bonus. I'm assuming that's a guy who can check if somebody has a gun or not? (kinda like a gunsmith?) Can't say anything to that, fair enough.

However, the first negative I outlined for scum easily outweighs all the stuff you talked about. I mean sure no doc protect is worth getting shot?

[drmyshotgun]

You probably assumed that a role like Vigilante exists basing on you and your partners' powers as Mafia members.

[vijay2vasandani]

If I assumed a vig exists via my team's power, why in the name of the mafia gods would I paint a target for a vig to shoot at as scum?

[Yates]

@Yates: Do you think Vijay is scum with Korlash?

Yes, I think it's possible. But as I stated earlier, I'm not yet convinced Korlash is scum for certain. If VJ flips scum, I think the chances of Korlash also being scum are much lower as it would be an INCREDIBLY ballsy gambit to bus your partner this early in a game already down one teammate. Assuming a three man scum team in a game this size, my guess is that would leave one of the lurkers as Ben and VJ's last scum partner.

Here's the thing about the Korlash wagon - I don't find Town motivation in nearly anything he says or does and honestly started thinking I was the only one perplexed by his playing style. As much as I would like to see him leave the game,

I just can't justify a vote on him because he hasn't done anything obviously scummy enough

. All I have is speculation and gut feeling, and that isn't enough for me to vote to lynch someone. If someone can build a case on Korlash that isn't based on gut, wifom, and setup speculation I'd be happy to listen.

...

this is based heavily on the fact that I believe Korlash is scum.

Agreed.

Explain please...

I think that statement is self-explanatory. I think you are scummy but not scummy enough to vote for. All of my "evidence" on you being scum is based on supposition and gut feeling. That's part of why I am requesting the Korlash-wagon to present some convincing arguments. I really just need one or two pieces of hard evidence that justifies these feelings to be willing to vote for you. Then again if the VJ wagon goes through and he flips scum, I'd be much more inclined to believe that your playing style comes across as scummy to me even though you would probably be Town. In addition to my evidence on VJ being much more tangible, this is part of the reason I'd rather see VJ get lynched before you. If I can get a scum lynch and a Town clear, that narrows my suspect pool.

Really? Did you think I got this title for something else then? =D

I actually never noticed that. Wear it with pride.

Last person I saw use this logic was... um... That guy who voted MoI for fakeclaiming a power role...

And you will notice that I never questioned your logic on that vote. That's actually where I started seeing you use logic I understood for the first time. A good portion of your defense today has been reasonable and believable as well.

3. Setting up your scum defense? Check.

I agree with the other two, but can you explain this one more. What do you mean by it?

If Fate had not been killed last night, VJ would be unlynchable. What we don't know about the vig role is if it was an every night role or of the 1, 2, or 3 shot variety. If it was a 1-shot role and Fate was forced to use it on the fakeclaim, VJ would have survived the night under the Doc's protection so scum STILL would have gotten rid of the vig even if they didn't publicly out him. If Fate and VJ both live to see today, Fate has to decide if he outs VJ's fakeclaim. Then VJ does exactly what he is doing now; he claims he was trying to draw a NK b/c he is just a lowly VT and has no idea why scum would ever make that fakeclaim. Well, obviously there are LOT's of reasons fakeclaiming vig was a good scum move.

Vigs cc with a bullet, not by ccing during the day. Do you think I'd want that to happen as scum?

Exactly. Unless they are of the one-shot variety. Then they need to use their bullet in the best way they know how. As explained above, by drawing the Doc protect you make yourself immune to the vig last night anyway. There's also the possibility you are a GF type role who is BP. Or maybe you guys have a driver/swapper? This is all setup spec but there are lots of potential roles and ways to make sure you didn't die last night. I will go with the doc protect for now as one very obvious and likely scenario since I can't begin to guess at scum roles accurately without more information.

[Yates]

Ugh. Quote fail.

[Yates]

note: Upon rereading, I clarified my response to Korlash's first paragraph quote to add:

Well, for one you are leaving out the context. Most noticeably lacking is the ENORMOUS caveat that follows where I move on from you and illustrate where I think VJ is the better play. Otherwise, ...

That post should look like this with quote fix and edit:

Spoiler:

@Yates: Do you think Vijay is scum with Korlash?

Yes, I think it's possible. But as I stated earlier, I'm not yet convinced Korlash is scum for certain. If VJ flips scum, I think the chances of Korlash also being scum are much lower as it would be an INCREDIBLY ballsy gambit to bus your partner this early in a game already down one teammate. Assuming a three man scum team in a game this size, my guess is that would leave one of the lurkers as Ben and VJ's last scum partner.

Here's the thing about the Korlash wagon - I don't find Town motivation in nearly anything he says or does and honestly started thinking I was the only one perplexed by his playing style. As much as I would like to see him leave the game,

I just can't justify a vote on him because he hasn't done anything obviously scummy enough

. All I have is speculation and gut feeling, and that isn't enough for me to vote to lynch someone. If someone can build a case on Korlash that isn't based on gut, wifom, and setup speculation I'd be happy to listen.

...

this is based heavily on the fact that I believe Korlash is scum.

Agreed.

Explain please...

Well, for one you are leaving out the context. Most noticeably lacking is the ENORMOUS caveat that follows where I move on from you and illustrate where I think VJ is the better play. Otherwise, I think that statement is self-explanatory. I think you are scummy but not scummy enough to vote for. All of my "evidence" on you being scum is based on supposition and gut feeling. That's part of why I am requesting the Korlash-wagon to present some convincing arguments. I really just need one or two pieces of hard evidence that justifies these feelings to be willing to vote for you. Then again if the VJ wagon goes through and he flips scum, I'd be much more inclined to believe that your playing style comes across as scummy to me even though you would probably be Town. In addition to my evidence on VJ being much more tangible, this is part of the reason I'd rather see VJ get lynched before you. If I can get a scum lynch and a Town clear, that narrows my suspect pool.

Really? Did you think I got this title for something else then? =D

I actually never noticed that. Wear it with pride.

Last person I saw use this logic was... um... That guy who voted MoI for fakeclaiming a power role...

And you will notice that I never questioned your logic on that vote. That's actually where I started seeing you use logic I understood for the first time. A good portion of your defense today has been reasonable and believable as well.

3. Setting up your scum defense? Check.

I agree with the other two, but can you explain this one more. What do you mean by it?

If Fate had not been killed last night, VJ would be unlynchable. What we don't know about the vig role is if it was an every night role or of the 1, 2, or 3 shot variety. If it was a 1-shot role and Fate was forced to use it on the fakeclaim, VJ would have survived the night under the Doc's protection so scum STILL would have gotten rid of the vig even if they didn't publicly out him. If Fate and VJ both live to see today, Fate has to decide if he outs VJ's fakeclaim. Then VJ does exactly what he is doing now; he claims he was trying to draw a NK b/c he is just a lowly VT and has no idea why scum would ever make that fakeclaim. Well, obviously there are LOT's of reasons fakeclaiming vig was a good scum move.

Vigs cc with a bullet, not by ccing during the day. Do you think I'd want that to happen as scum?

Exactly. Unless they are of the one-shot variety. Then they need to use their bullet in the best way they know how. As explained above, by drawing the Doc protect you make yourself immune to the vig last night anyway. There's also the possibility you are a GF type role who is BP. Or maybe you guys have a driver/swapper? This is all setup spec but there are lots of potential roles and ways to make sure you didn't die last night. I will go with the doc protect for now as one very obvious and likely scenario since I can't begin to guess at scum roles accurately without more information.

[Scott Brosius]

As I said I'll keep an eye on it. Don't knock yourself over patting yourself on the back for contributing

I'm not patting myself on the back. I find it odd that you make sure to mention what you didn't like about my predecessor and say you're going to keep an eye on my slot, but don't bother to even mention that it's been filled or that there's been contribution. You should be able to have some kind of an opinion, but you don't.

Once you stop posting massive walls, I will read them. So no, I don't have an opinion yet. You are reaching really hard here.

I am voting you Yates because you are pushing Korlash along V2V, yet you are on a wagon with Korlash, one of your main scum reads. That shows me you do not really believe what you are saying. Also the V2V wagon is garbage. I explained this in my vote, but I suppose you did not read it.

What's the scum angle for claiming vig again?

Let's see...

1. Potentially drawing out the REAL vig - who would be a major bane to scum? Check.
2. Draw a night protect from Doc thus allowing all scum kill actions to go through? Check.
3. Setting up your scum defense? Check.

Bonus - may not apply in this particular game but worth mentioning - Explaining why an investigator might find you with a weapon? Check.

As V2V already answered,

1. Did we even know there was a real vig? I am assuming not. Vigs are not extremely common, why would scum V2V go out of his way to fake a role like that. Either A. It doesn't exist, target is on his back the longer he remains alive or B. the real vig shoots him

2. It would have to be a really stupid doctor to protect based on a hint of a soft-claim

3. This is highly doubtful.

You probably assumed that a role like Vigilante exists basing on you and your partners' powers as Mafia members.

This is completely absurd. Has anyone actually seen scum go OOOH WE HAVE A ROLEBLOCKER! I GUESS THERES A VIG!

[Yates]

I explained this in my vote, but

I suppose you did not read it

.

This makes me chuckle. Everything you just posted makes it clear to me

you

aren't reading the thread. This post might have made sense Friday morning [May 18 was 5 days and 80 posts ago] but doesn't make a lick of sense right now. So you are either not reading the game or VJ's scum buddy.

[Yates]

Post to add, you don't even need to look very far. Post 720, which is exactly ONE post above yours, addresses everything you said. Logic!

[PeregrineV]

Caught up.
Early feelings are Korlash scum, but going back to check BenMage iso first.