TM2012 - Closed Normal(Over!)

[UberNinja]

And here's everything iama says to/about PeregrineV.

Are you saying "convince him he can't read you"?

Are you saying anything useful in this game?

If there are lots of posts that aren't saying anything, that gives me a feeling of scumminess.

But if there are very few posts saying nothing, that's A-OK?

That whole conversation seems strange, because how do you "convince something they can't read you." The whole game is about reads, and you can convince someone they are wrong in their reads, but not that they can't make reads. And the assumption that a specific person CAN'T get a read on another specific person just because they are that person makes about as much sense as the whole "I caught you as scum in game A, B, and C" thing.

I think you need to read post 147 again, because you are not even close to the point here.

Scum can't be convinced that their read is wrong, because they already know that their read is wrong, they're just pretending not to. Haylen was saying that GreyICE was scum, but also trying to convince him that his read was wrong. She

says

GreyICE is scum while acting like she

thinks

he is town. This is because she is knows GreyICE is town. This is because she is scum.

Understand?

I got nothing more concrete. I can start making shit up, but that won't help.

I spend lots of time overcoming my built-in bias I have towards players. This requires more reading than it does posting. I'll comment on stuff if I have anything, and will ask questions, but I ain't going for post count.

This feels town to me. I totally relate with the 'built-in bias' bit; I definitely had a bit of that going on with my initial resistance to the Haylen wagon. If Slaxx wasn't around to show me the light, I'm not sure I'd have got over my reluctance to side with GreyICE and UberNinja.

Captain Murasa(3): PeregrineV, Porochaz, jasonT1981

Oh, right.

I think that until the flip, it makes sense to treat all players as both potential mafia and potential town. Granted, you may feel someone has more potential one way or another, but you can't know with certainty until the mod posts.

what an incredibly useless post

2 of iamausername, PeregrineV, UberNinja, Slaxx, DeltaWave
1 of Captain Murasa and Prozac

[...]

I broadly agree with the logic, there's likely two scum in {PeregrineV, UberNinja, Slaxx, DeltaWave} and one in {Prozac, MoS}.

I can follow the town thought processes behind your vote and Slaxx's vote very well. PeregrineV's to a lesser extent.

scum doesn't spend that much energy going against obvtown like Glork.

Maybe my perception of D1 was skewed by my assumption that Haylen was scum, but I don't remember Glork being obvtown. Well, not at the point when DeltaWave started attacking him, anyway.

Analysis time.

[UberNinja]

What's the point of switching your vote to me at all, if it just switches back to DeltaWave by the end of the post?
Looks to me like scum trying to appear to contribute or have changes of opinion without actually accomplishing anything.

Well, see, while I was part of the way through catching up, I realised that my primary reason for voting DeltaWave over you no longer applied - neither of you are particularly likely to be scum with Prozac, so there was no reason not to go for the one which currently had more support.

Then I got to the part where DeltaWave started propogating some complete bullshit against my strongest town read, and now I think he's considerably more likely to be scum than you are, so I voted him again.

How do you feel about jason posting 869 in twilight? Why doesn't that look like scum trying to appear to contribute or have changes of opinion without actually accomplishing anything?

still feels completely useless for you to change your vote to me and then change it back.

and that's scummy as hell given the number of times you've complained about other people's posts being useless

so in other words, your post was a shit-ton of filler, with little-to-no ACTUAL ANYTHING HAPPENING

so you're scum. and possibly pereV too

and then the third scum is either poro or MoS, i'd bank my bottom dollar on that.

[Captain Leela]

@Leela - You seem really concerned that you're going to be mislynched even though there isn't a single vote on you. Why?

I'm not. You seem to be confusing wording. Three people have accused me of being scum due to actions of my predecessor. You have, on more than one occasion talked about the scumminess of my slot. I said that I can come to terms with the likelihood that I'll be mislynched over it; I'm not referring to today, but in the coming days. There's only so much I can do, and if people can't see past their earlier suspicions, there's not much I can do about that but accept it.

[UberNinja]

Are you saying "convince him he can't read you"?

Are you saying anything useful in this game?

I haven't said much yet, aside from asking a question and trying to clarify what I've read so far. Stuff that is useful to me.

This sounds like a perfect excuse for scum to talk to each other and have a general "hey look I talked to my scumbuddy" thing without actually having accomplished anything one way or the other. It's also a very trite reason to call someone out. Iama chides PereV for not being useful, not only here, but later as well.

If there are lots of posts that aren't saying anything, that gives me a feeling of scumminess.

But if there are very few posts saying nothing, that's A-OK?

Another "dissent for the sake of dissent" post between scumbuddies.

That whole conversation seems strange, because how do you "convince something they can't read you." The whole game is about reads, and you can convince someone they are wrong in their reads, but not that they can't make reads. And the assumption that a specific person CAN'T get a read on another specific person just because they are that person makes about as much sense as the whole "I caught you as scum in game A, B, and C" thing.

I think you need to read post 147 again, because you are not even close to the point here.

This seems scummy for 2 reasons on iama's part.

1, the obvious connection to PeregrineV, chiding him for the THIRD time, without making any allusion as to his alignment being townie or scummy.
2, town don't give a fuck whether or not someone is "missing the point", they give a fuck whether or not someone is scum. i.e. not what iama cares about. subtle tell, but strong as hell.

I got nothing more concrete. I can start making shit up, but that won't help.
I spend lots of time overcoming my built-in bias I have towards players. This requires more reading than it does posting. I'll comment on stuff if I have anything, and will ask questions, but I ain't going for post count.

This feels town to me. I totally relate with the 'built-in bias' bit; I definitely had a bit of that going on with my initial resistance to the Haylen wagon. If Slaxx wasn't around to show me the light, I'm not sure I'd have got over my reluctance to side with GreyICE and UberNinja.

This is perfect excuse for both of them to reflect off each other in a controlled atmosphere where neither of them is going to say anything too damning about each other. It's perfect.

First, it's PereV chanting that token "I really don't have anything concrete, it's just what I FEEL" mantra, which scum feels obliged to repeat in order to "prove" to people that they don't have inside information. Which makes me roll my eyes in disgust.

Second, it's a perfect excuse for Iama to call PereV town because of that way-too-obv "town tell" which looks like it was obviously committed with the intent of increasing town cred. Which makes me roll my eyes in disgust even more.

Third, it's also a perfect excuse for Iama to buddy up to Slaxx, tout to the town that "hey, I was opposed to the Haylen wagon initially", and also throw suspicion on myself and GreyICE when Haylen flips town, which he knows she will.

Note that before this, neither of them had made any allusion to the other's alignment, and only now does Iama say that PereV "feels town."

Captain Murasa(3): PeregrineV, Porochaz, jasonT1981

Oh, right.

Not much to make of this, but I included it for reasons of completeness.

I think that until the flip, it makes sense to treat all players as both potential mafia and potential town. Granted, you may feel someone has more potential one way or another, but you can't know with certainty until the mod posts.

what an incredibly useless post

So after he calls PereV town, he continues to call him out on posting useless posts. Fantastic. Another perfect excuse to have a "not town but not scum" read on his scum buddy.

1)My built-in bias this game, at the start
GreyICE- scummish
Glork- townish
Uberninja- townish
JasonT1981- nullish (I can't recall a game I've played with you, only games of yours I've played in)
iamausername- null/scummish
Slaxx- null/scummish
Haylen-null/townish
Mastermind of Sin- null
CooLDoG- null/townish
Captain Murasa- null
DeltaWave- null/townish
Porochaz- null/townish

First of all, what the FUCK is a built-in-bias from the start of the game.

Secondly, why the FUCK is Iamausername at null/scummish when all he's done is call you out for being useless, and pretend to try to help you understand something that you "honestly don't get" because you're "so town and don't have inside info?" Yeah, this read is bullshit.

Also notice how it upgrades from "null/scummish" to "null" in his next list. Which is also bullshit.

I think that until the flip, it makes sense to treat all players as both potential mafia and potential town. Granted, you may feel someone has more potential one way or another, but you can't know with certainty until the mod posts.

what an incredibly useless post

Now I'm sad, because I have failed in my duty to be useful to you.

More useless scum back-and-forth.

This is not a comment someone who's town says to someone they think is null/scummish. Not someone like PereV at least. Me, yeah maybe. Because I'm a sardonic motherfucker. But PereV's personality would be more like "yep, sorry, I'm having trouble" JUST LIKE HE DID A FEW RESPONSES AGO TO IAMAUSERNAME.

But no, this time he's full of snark, and the cognitive dissonance is telling.

GreyICE- I find scummy. Apparently I'm a minority in this.
Glork- I find townish. Of course, I haven't seen a scum Glork yet.
Uberninja- I find townish.
JasonT1981- Torn, so effectively a null.
iamausername- Null
Slaxx- null
Haylen- I find townish, but I kind of get the argument against her.
Mastermind of Sin- lurking, so scummish, but nothing in his posts point to it.
CooLDoG- townish
Captain Murasa- still scummish, but going towards nullish
DeltaWave- null for lack of posts
Porochaz- null/townish
PeregrineV-town

And now iamausername is null, just as I mentioned above would happen. No explanation given.

He's still said fucking nothing about iama all game. You know, just for the record...

2 of iamausername, PeregrineV, UberNinja, Slaxx, DeltaWave
1 of Captain Murasa and Prozac

[...]

I broadly agree with the logic, there's likely two scum in {PeregrineV, UberNinja, Slaxx, DeltaWave} and one in {Prozac, MoS}.

Including a scum buddy in a Likely-X-Scum-In-This-Set list. "Textbook" scum distancing.

I can follow the town thought processes behind your vote and Slaxx's vote very well. PeregrineV's to a lesser extent.

Mentioning PereV again without saying anything alignment-indicative about him. "Textbook" scum interaction.

scum doesn't spend that much energy going against obvtown like Glork.

Maybe my perception of D1 was skewed by my assumption that Haylen was scum, but I don't remember Glork being obvtown. Well, not at the point when DeltaWave started attacking him, anyway.

Talking to each other. As if both are null, and they have no interest in each other.

@UberNinja- my team has you 75% bad town. You can make that 100% good town by using your posts to add relevance to the conversation instead of useless quips.
for example, talk aobut your lynch list. Why those people why that order?

Porochaz
PeregrineV
MoS
iamausername

Well, now it's PeregrineV/Iamausername, Porochaz, and MoS, in that order.

In Glork we trust.

Is that a little more "relevance" in the conversation, instead of "useless quips" (which, I might add, you have been accused of making more than once, by your own scum buddy)?

Hope your happy. Please commence flailing now, Mr. Caughtscum. You too, iama.

[UberNinja]

tl;dr:
PeregrineV is scum with iamausername. I am not sure who their friend is, but it'll be easy to tell later.

When one flips scum (which he will), we 100% lynch the other the next day. No buts. NO FUCKING BUTS.

[iamausername]

hey, UberNinja, give me the names of two players in this game, any two players, and i'll show you a magic trick

[UberNinja]

if it has to do with a pencil no thankx

[DeltaWave]

Okay, so I went through those posts, and I guess I can see where you are coming from, but there are a couple of posts there that I have a problem with. Delta has exhibited quite a stubborn personality in his arguments and tone, but in Post 632 Glork calls him out for still voting Haylen and keeping in there for about 600 posts or 24 pages. My problem is that in the very next post Post 633 Delta votes for Glork. Now, there were some earlier things that had my alarms up about Delta, but when I got to this I had an immediate reaction. What it looked like to me was that he got called out for having his vote still on an RVS target and immediately changed it due to pressure, which is something that I wouldn't associate with town or at least someone who had demonstrated a stubborn personality. The change in vote looks like it's for show rather than a natural action.

LOL, this is a colossal misrep. I notice how you

completely avoided

discussing my reason for voting Glork in 633. Why? Did you "forget"?

Let me refresh your memory. I voted Glork because, in 630 (which he posted literally three minutes before 632), he outright refused to clear up an inconsistency that I spotted in his logic. I said, "Answer my question", to which he responded, "No." In my next post in the thread, I voted him for that reason.

It's funny that, once again, you miss a crucial post in your analysis. The "I forgot" excuse is getting old.

[UberNinja]

Delta, stop.

You sitting there making patty cakes with Captain Leela is getting nobody anywhere.
Look at the case on iama/PereV, comment on it. Please, thanks. You too Leela.

[Equinox]

Porochaz(2): GreyICE, DeltaWave
Uberninja(2): CooLDoG, Porochaz
DeltaWave(2): Captain Leela, iamausername
iamausername(2): Mastermind of Sin, UberNinja
Mastermind of Sin(1): PeregrineV

Not Voting: Slaxx, jasonT1981
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is June 2nd.

Hello.

[UberNinja]

Who the hell is Equinox and why is he so smooth?

[Slaxx]

Okay so here's my reread from day 2 on:

#887 makes cooldog slight town, so does his attack on UN though I don't agree with it, I like the aggressiveness.
#888 and #889 gives me slight town vibes from Poro, mainly because of the separate posts. The "he didn't think before posting so isn't scum" type of thing. Equally so the two people he implied he was gonna pressure: they were both good choices.
UN's #891 that caught him heat was bad but its not scummy.
Since I have town reads on Delta and UN, CM's #902 is bad. Really bad.
I like the way MoS goes about #908 though assigning arbitrary numbers to bandwagons seems to always end badly. The strategy looks more town motivated but no. It just doesnt always work out the way you think it does. Those numbers are random.
#909 is a good post. "Let me jump off this easy wagon to scumhunt in other places". I'd be moderately surprised if MoS was scum at this point.
CM's #913 is good. Well, the first half. The list of FoSs is absolutely fucking terrible.
#936 wrecks my townread on Pere.
#950 is bad. I PoE and it works for me way better than anything else. In fact Reg and I are pretty much known to hunt for town reads first. In fact, I think I've been saying these 6 people are town so lets look elsewhere for a while since what was it...four days into Day 1? I don't understand why Poro hasn't hopped on me for that.
#974 is really bad. He wasn't backtracking from a scumread at all. I don't even fucking know what this pile of shit is but just stop.
#993 makes me wanna say IAm is town but I can't tell if I like the content because he calls me town and backs up my thoughts 5-6 times or if I actually think he's town. My town weakness has always been scum buddying me. Realized it last year when Faraday did it to me in PyP.
#998 feels like a heavily heavily heavily unnatural transition. "I was wrong about this guy yesterday so I'm gonna hop off my current vote because it might be wrong, even though I'm more for sure about this guy than the last guy, then let me vote someone else simply because 'the pros outweigh the cons'."...what? Nah, poro is scum here, or an idiot. Gonna go with scum.
#999 is semi-ballsy if Poro and Delta are scum together. I don't think they are. I only made a note of this because I think someone said Poro/Delta is a likely combo.
Ok good, Grey's #1001 sums up the bad that is poro's vote.
there's something about #1032 that just screams Delta-town. Its gut but its there.
God.

What

the

fuck

is

1095

No, fucking seriously. What the fuck is this fucking piece of shit post.

The "Why is this scummy" question literally feels more like snark than a legitimate question. And he fucking does it twice. Both of those reasons should be implied to pretty much anyone with the capacity to reason equally or better than a goldfish. He then takes ONE OF UNS MANY FUCKING POSTS, and decided to snipe at him for being unproductive when Cooldog's WHOLE FUCKING POST THUS FAR has been nothing but a pile of steaming horse shit full of useless questions. The icing on the cake was the fucking debate on words we have here"

Is it actually possible to scum slip harder? Isn't a scum slip an off on sorta deal? "He scum slipped! He scumslipped twice! He scum slipped harder?!?!"

It was

clearly

implied that Delta meant that one action was scummier than the other. I don't even fucking know what the point of this question besides to raise my fucking blood pressure. This whole post feels like it was designed to rile people up instead of actually get anything useful accomplished. If it weren't for Cooldog's early Day 2 play I'd probably be voting him but something still says town here.

#1097 is dumb. Contradictions can come from scum and do so more than town. Every now and then you get someone incapable of articulating thought patterns and they get misunderstood but nah. Contradictions are juicy stuff.

Okay I wasn't looking forward to these walls between Delta and Leela, but Delta is town. He just fucking is.

Here we go with Cooldog again in 1109, with his head so far up his ass it affects his reading comprehension. Its pretty clear here UN meant that he was town because Delta has thought patterns similiar to his own, and that similar thought patterns usually indicate town more than scum if youre town. PErfect example of this is when Hinduragi and I played a game (mininormal) modded by AurorusVox. Cant remember name. Anyway we had two scum down and were both led to the same person for last scum and had a huge synergy moment. Pretty much from then on I just knew he was town even though our read was actually wrong. I think its a very legitimate tell if people's thoughts line up with your own.

ANNNND I just almost x'ed out of this window so im posting this now before I lose it. Fucking shit. Rest of catch up to come soon.

[Slaxx]

I'm guessing a lot of things fool you.

<3

Saw this and thought it deserved its own special heart and reply. If I had been around it wouldve gotten one sooner.

[Slaxx]

Caught up but not much activity.

@Capt Leela- Why exactly are you voting Delta? You're conversing with him, but your vote was accompanied by "let me show you how it's done."
Also, do you agree or disagree with 1089

@UberNinja- my team has you 75% bad town. You can make that 100% good town by using your posts to add relevance to the conversation instead of useless quips.
for example, talk aobut your lynch list. Why those people why that order?

Porochaz
PeregrineV
MoS
iamausername

I'll talk to Reg about what the tare on Pere's activity usually is but I'm tired of him flying under the radar with posts like this for this long. And what makes it even worse is no one has really pressured him. Hard, anyway.

So I've caught up. I need to read the walls between Delta and Leela carefully but Im to the point where my brain is just shutting off at this point when I get into them.


Town (S->W): UN, MoS, Grey, Jason, Delta, Cooldog
Null: IAm, Leela
Scum (W->S): Poro, Pere

After reading through I am actually pretty confident in all my town reads. If UN, MoS, Grey or Jason is scum I guess I'm fucked. I can see a small probability of Delta and CD being scum but they just feel way too town to put in null.

UN is town because of his aggressiveness today and the way he sifts through his reads. Its been little things that I've noticed but they all amount to a very very confident town read I have on him. Examples include when he says "Hey this guy noticed what I noticed about x" or "Hey do something useful and comment on this case I put together". Its not the process of scumhunting itself that gives me this read but the way he has been interacting with the other players in general. It seems like he is just in a really town mindset and those subtleties are harder to fake than scumhunting.

MoS is town mainly based on Reg's old read of him (I trust it) but I'm getting good vibes from him regardless. I like his beginning of day 2 play and he has continued to deliver fairly transparent and well thought out posts.

GreyICE is town because of the aggressiveness in pushing the Haylen lynch Day 1 in addition to some of his Day 2 play. His reasoning on Haylen was solid and I reread and can't really find any indication he was trying to set up mislynches for the next day after Haylen flipped town. I say this because Grey is not to be underestimated as scum: he has a good scum game. I tried and tried to look at a scum-Grey perspective but I just couldn't see it. I'm pretty confident he is town.

Jason is town for pretty much the same reasons Grey is. Except I'm not nearly as worried about jason's good scum game (no offense, youre not bad, I've just been duped by Grey in the past but if I recall you're a pretty easy read), also Reg's pretty sure he is town.

Delta and Cooldog are mainly gut+ their aggressiveness. Delta has some gems in his ISO I might pick out later if anyone really wants me to. Cooldog is mainly gut.

I still can't get a good grip on leela or IAm.

Poro I have explained, and Pere I have too.

Vote Pere-V

[CooLDoG]

I distinctly remember answering you, and I'm not answering again, so kindly go fuck yourself.

Delta is town

. No use lynching him. And you know I'm town too, so there's no use lynching me.

Yet another unqualified statement. Qualify your statements.

Why are delta's posts town motivated?

I haven't asked that question yet, now answer it.

What exactly gives you the impression that they have this town by the balls? Is anybody else voting Prozac, or showing much inclination to listen to their increasingly desperate demands that we do so?

The fact is that for some reason the town can't function without those three voting for someone. Look at d1, without there blessing we couldn't run anyone up for a lynch. Those three, without being good players, dictated what the town talks about and who they vote for. I can't believe it, but it is true.

I'm a little confused as to what the above post was supposed to accomplish. Like, at all.

What's the point of switching your vote to me at all, if it just switches back to DeltaWave by the end of the post?
Looks to me like scum trying to appear to contribute or have changes of opinion without actually accomplishing anything.

Unvote; Vote: iamausername

PV is also perfectly fine to lynch.

Somebody needs to die, and it needs to not be me or Deltawave or CoolDog or GreyICE. Actually, don't lynch Leela either

Anyone else I am fine with.

This post just came right out of the blue. Guys, please, please can we lynch this guy. I beg you. He can pull his reasons for votes right out of his ass and no one cares. please. I beg. Please. *sob* lyyyyynch hiiim mommmy? please?

Cooldog - Opinions on Leela?

The original slot was, admittedly, scummy, but leea herself is town motivated. Not sure about that sorta 180 in personality, but I don't think she should be lynched today.

I am struggling to see why there isn't more pressure on UN here...

Delta wave is making people look the other way. Two stupid scum players decrease the chance of one of them getting lynched.

Eyes on prize poro dies.

MoS acceptable, obvtown Iam is not.

Grey ice does his best uberninja impersonation. If you aren't going to add anything why post? And poro isn't going to happen when your two buds are still alive. Get over it and buss your scum buds allready. It was a great strategy to be obviously dumb and push shit reads and shit wagons, but it didn't work.

You, purely because of Glork.

I don't think someone would kill Glork if he hadn't suspected them, they'd want to keep him alive if he was sniffing around other people, especially given how he was willing to lynch Haylen though he disagreed with it.

Do you have no independent judgement at all?

Question: If I voted for poro chaz because you said so, would I be town?

Glork, I'm really not sure what your goal is here.

Lynching scum, hence the iamausername vote.

This probably influenced my read on iamausername too.

I could probably see iama/PereV together as scum.

Hold on.

WHAT?

That influenced your read? WHAT the fuck? what? how the hell does that even begin to change a read? what the fuck. Just what the fuck. That's messed the fuck up man. really messed the fuck up.

Spoiler: ... you will see why

Here is all PeregrineV has said (or to) about iamausername ALL GAME:

Are you saying "convince him he can't read you"?

Are you saying anything useful in this game?

I haven't said much yet, aside from asking a question and trying to clarify what I've read so far. Stuff that is useful to me.

I think they want you to expand on what you said, and tell us why you are having your sixth sense warring when you read him.

First two posts gave good vibes, then they went downhill after that. But, some of his posts indicate a thinking pattern I can follow. And then sometimes he seems to hop wagons willy-nilly.
Stuff like that.

1) what built in Bias, and with who
2) 10 pages in, you have nothing concrete to go on? pfft

1)My built-in bias this game, at the start
GreyICE- scummish
Glork- townish
Uberninja- townish
JasonT1981- nullish (I can't recall a game I've played with you, only games of yours I've played in)
iamausername- null/scummish
Slaxx- null/scummish
Haylen-null/townish
Mastermind of Sin- null
CooLDoG- null/townish
Captain Murasa- null
DeltaWave- null/townish
Porochaz- null/townish

2) Nothing I'm buying whole hog, but I like the activity.

I think that until the flip, it makes sense to treat all players as both potential mafia and potential town. Granted, you may feel someone has more potential one way or another, but you can't know with certainty until the mod posts.

what an incredibly useless post

Now I'm sad, because I have failed in my duty to be useful to you.

PereV goes into the red/scum pile.

PereV Scum to town read list, please.

Noted.
GreyICE- I find scummy. Apparently I'm a minority in this.
Glork- I find townish. Of course, I haven't seen a scum Glork yet.
Uberninja- I find townish.
JasonT1981- Torn, so effectively a null.
iamausername- Null
Slaxx- null
Haylen- I find townish, but I kind of get the argument against her.
Mastermind of Sin- lurking, so scummish, but nothing in his posts point to it.
CooLDoG- townish
Captain Murasa- still scummish, but going towards nullish
DeltaWave- null for lack of posts
Porochaz- null/townish
PeregrineV-town

Caught up but not much activity.

@Capt Leela- Why exactly are you voting Delta? You're conversing with him, but your vote was accompanied by "let me show you how it's done."
Also, do you agree or disagree with 1089

@UberNinja- my team has you 75% bad town. You can make that 100% good town by using your posts to add relevance to the conversation instead of useless quips.
for example, talk aobut your lynch list. Why those people why that order?

Porochaz
PeregrineV
MoS
iamausername

Now to find out what Iama says about PV.

What was the point of that? You haven't even said anything about your glork analysis. And you just post an iso OF A DIFFERENT PLAYER FOR NO REASON. My god... What is this shit? What is going on with UN now? Has he lost it? No offense and all. But your posts don't make logical sense. The actual stuff in the posts doesn't make sense. What you say about glork doesn't make sense. It just blows my mind. I don't get it.

You know what would be more funny? If on the next page he posted another iso with nothing else.

Spoiler:

And here's everything iama says to/about PeregrineV.

Are you saying "convince him he can't read you"?

Are you saying anything useful in this game?

If there are lots of posts that aren't saying anything, that gives me a feeling of scumminess.

But if there are very few posts saying nothing, that's A-OK?

That whole conversation seems strange, because how do you "convince something they can't read you." The whole game is about reads, and you can convince someone they are wrong in their reads, but not that they can't make reads. And the assumption that a specific person CAN'T get a read on another specific person just because they are that person makes about as much sense as the whole "I caught you as scum in game A, B, and C" thing.

I think you need to read post 147 again, because you are not even close to the point here.

Scum can't be convinced that their read is wrong, because they already know that their read is wrong, they're just pretending not to. Haylen was saying that GreyICE was scum, but also trying to convince him that his read was wrong. She

says

GreyICE is scum while acting like she

thinks

he is town. This is because she is knows GreyICE is town. This is because she is scum.

Understand?

I got nothing more concrete. I can start making shit up, but that won't help.

I spend lots of time overcoming my built-in bias I have towards players. This requires more reading than it does posting. I'll comment on stuff if I have anything, and will ask questions, but I ain't going for post count.

This feels town to me. I totally relate with the 'built-in bias' bit; I definitely had a bit of that going on with my initial resistance to the Haylen wagon. If Slaxx wasn't around to show me the light, I'm not sure I'd have got over my reluctance to side with GreyICE and UberNinja.

Captain Murasa(3): PeregrineV, Porochaz, jasonT1981

Oh, right.

I think that until the flip, it makes sense to treat all players as both potential mafia and potential town. Granted, you may feel someone has more potential one way or another, but you can't know with certainty until the mod posts.

what an incredibly useless post

2 of iamausername, PeregrineV, UberNinja, Slaxx, DeltaWave
1 of Captain Murasa and Prozac

[...]

I broadly agree with the logic, there's likely two scum in {PeregrineV, UberNinja, Slaxx, DeltaWave} and one in {Prozac, MoS}.

I can follow the town thought processes behind your vote and Slaxx's vote very well. PeregrineV's to a lesser extent.

scum doesn't spend that much energy going against obvtown like Glork.

Maybe my perception of D1 was skewed by my assumption that Haylen was scum, but I don't remember Glork being obvtown. Well, not at the point when DeltaWave started attacking him, anyway.

Analysis time.

he did.
Analysis time? THERE ISN'T ANY THERE? YOU NEVER DO THIS. WHY DO YOU EVEN PUT THAT IN YOUR POSTS?

post 1178 is what we needed the first time. By why didn't he do it the first time? What was the hold up? I don't know.... I just don't know anymore.

[Slaxx]

CooLdog, you think Grey and UN are both scum?

[Slaxx]

yeah ok

can you give me a quick rundown of your reads

just like

x is xum, y iz null, blue is a nice color, etc

[Slaxx]

scum

not xum

[UberNinja]

not sure if slaxx is scum buddying up to me because i have a town read on him... or just really awesome townie

either way, <3 slaxx

[Captain Leela]

Okay, so I went through those posts, and I guess I can see where you are coming from, but there are a couple of posts there that I have a problem with. Delta has exhibited quite a stubborn personality in his arguments and tone, but in Post 632 Glork calls him out for still voting Haylen and keeping in there for about 600 posts or 24 pages. My problem is that in the very next post Post 633 Delta votes for Glork. Now, there were some earlier things that had my alarms up about Delta, but when I got to this I had an immediate reaction. What it looked like to me was that he got called out for having his vote still on an RVS target and immediately changed it due to pressure, which is something that I wouldn't associate with town or at least someone who had demonstrated a stubborn personality. The change in vote looks like it's for show rather than a natural action.

LOL, this is a colossal misrep. I notice how you

completely avoided

discussing my reason for voting Glork in 633. Why? Did you "forget"?

Let me refresh your memory. I voted Glork because, in 630 (which he posted literally three minutes before 632), he outright refused to clear up an inconsistency that I spotted in his logic. I said, "Answer my question", to which he responded, "No." In my next post in the thread, I voted him for that reason.

It's funny that, once again, you miss a crucial post in your analysis. The "I forgot" excuse is getting old.

My brain literally jumped out of its skull and hid in the closet over the sheer stupidity of this post.

Your reasoning has nothing to do with why your change of vote sent up alarm bells for me. I didn't forget anything, and for you to accuse me of that when I'm posting links to the very posts that I'm talking about is in your words "a colossal misrep."

I don't care what your reasons were, and I never suggested your vote wasn't accompanied by reasons. However, what I said was that it looked like you got called out for still having an RVS vote and changed it due to pressure. This is completely independent of your reasoning for your change of vote.

[Slaxx]

I don't want to stifle content. I rarely tell people to just drop arguments.

But this one needs to stop.

If you want to lynch each other, talk to everyone else, not each other. Tell us why, succinctly and convincingly, why they are scum. Who their partners might be. I feel like you guys are lost in this pissing contest. You're done. You're not changing each others minds and hardly anyone is paying attention to the argument. Maybe there's something to be said from that, I don't know. What I do know is I'm tired or reading the back and forth and I'm sure everyone else is too.

I'm rereading Leela and I think she's town. I think. Its weak but its there. That leaves Pere/Poro/Iam. I don't like that combo for some reason so its probably time to re evaluate a bit.

[Slaxx]

Just to make sure I understand this argument:

Leela says Delta is a strong scum read
Delta confronts Leela
Leela forgets something in her response
Delta says theres no way you could have forgotten you just read it and calls BS
Leela says she read it yesterday

It should have stopped right there, I think. There's no way Leela could have proven when she read it, and there is no way to prove she forgot it. This is where the conversation should have stopped. Am I missing something or is this it?

[Tammy]

You sitting there making patty cakes with Captain Leela is getting nobody anywhere.
Look at the case on iama/PereV, comment on it. Please, thanks. You too Leela.

Okay so, I read through your case Uber. Here's my problem with it. I really hate partner analysis before there's been a scum flip because there's really nothing to go off from that. I know that some people do it, and really believe in it, but I've seen it end badly too many times. I feel the same way about MoS' wagon analysis he did at the start of day two. I prefer to have evidence to work with, and then even then relational tells aren't absolute as scum love to build up fake relations to townies, but at least with one flip or two you have something concrete to build off of. When Iam said to give him two names and he'd show you a magic trick after you demonstrated the Pere/Iam connections, he was going to show you that you can find connections/lack of connections between any two people in the game if you want to. (At least that's how I interpreted it.)

I needed to ISO both of them anyway so I did that. I don't know why I was waffling on Iam when I read through the thread the first time. He reads as quite town to me. His play style really resonates with me, and yes I know that that doesn't really have any bearing on alignment, but it predisposes me to feel positive about him. Anyway all of the questions that he asks and the statements that he makes are geared toward finding scum. I found myself agreeing with a lot of what he says and find it to be town motivated.

Now Pere is a different story. I don't like that everyone was a null for him yesterday as nulls always set me off, but I can see his reasoning - if I'm interpreting it properly. I don't know what his experience level is with the playerlist but I imagine that's where the biases come in. If you've been fooled by someone or if you've seen them play town a lot, it's always going to play into how you view them even if you try to just contain it to the game. Still, I don't like the null list. There's some contribution that feels genuine, but what I don't like is the way he's gone about his MoS suspicion today.

He started off the day, or close to it, voting for MoS in Post 1046. He had mentioned thinking that MoS seemed kind of lurkery scummy during day one, and there was an interaction about figuring out MoS' motives in PoE with Porochaz. (Now I feel dumb right now because I can't find what prompted Poro to vote Peregrine for figuring out MoS's motives in PoE.) Anyway, he didn't give reasoning for why he was voting for MoS in that post, and when I asked him for reasoning he told me in Post 1089. Reasoning is sound as he did say he was sheeping Glork, and some of his posts weren't stellar, but he made some really good points day one. The second reason is that he thinks he looks like he's fishing for support for his lynch and is directing the day where he thinks it should go. Yes, he started off the day voting Uberninja for a bad post (it was bad), and then did a wagon analysis (which I hate), but he's not acted in accordance with pushing the day where he thinks it should go. My biggest problem with this is that he didn't give this information up front. I had to ask him why he was voting MoS, and the way he's gone about it has been subtle. He hasn't interacted with MoS to determine his thought process with this. Now he has interacted with me and Uberninja and asked others questions, and tried to get me to elaborate on why I find MoS town, but he hasn't interacted with MoS even though he's voting for him. This doesn't read to me as someone who is trying to find out if his suspicions are accurate.

[Captain Leela]

You sitting there making patty cakes with Captain Leela is getting nobody anywhere.
Look at the case on iama/PereV, comment on it. Please, thanks. You too Leela.

Okay so, I read through your case Uber. Here's my problem with it. I really hate partner analysis before there's been a scum flip because there's really nothing to go off from that. I know that some people do it, and really believe in it, but I've seen it end badly too many times. I feel the same way about MoS' wagon analysis he did at the start of day two. I prefer to have evidence to work with, and then even then relational tells aren't absolute as scum love to build up fake relations to townies, but at least with one flip or two you have something concrete to build off of. When Iam said to give him two names and he'd show you a magic trick after you demonstrated the Pere/Iam connections, he was going to show you that you can find connections/lack of connections between any two people in the game if you want to. (At least that's how I interpreted it.)

I needed to ISO both of them anyway so I did that. I don't know why I was waffling on Iam when I read through the thread the first time. He reads as quite town to me. His play style really resonates with me, and yes I know that that doesn't really have any bearing on alignment, but it predisposes me to feel positive about him. Anyway all of the questions that he asks and the statements that he makes are geared toward finding scum. I found myself agreeing with a lot of what he says and find it to be town motivated.

Now Pere is a different story. I don't like that everyone was a null for him yesterday as nulls always set me off, but I can see his reasoning - if I'm interpreting it properly. I don't know what his experience level is with the playerlist but I imagine that's where the biases come in. If you've been fooled by someone or if you've seen them play town a lot, it's always going to play into how you view them even if you try to just contain it to the game. Still, I don't like the null list. There's some contribution that feels genuine, but what I don't like is the way he's gone about his MoS suspicion today.

He started off the day, or close to it, voting for MoS in Post 1046. He had mentioned thinking that MoS seemed kind of lurkery scummy during day one, and there was an interaction about figuring out MoS' motives in PoE with Porochaz. (Now I feel dumb right now because I can't find what prompted Poro to vote Peregrine for figuring out MoS's motives in PoE.) Anyway, he didn't give reasoning for why he was voting for MoS in that post, and when I asked him for reasoning he told me in Post 1089. Reasoning is sound as he did say he was sheeping Glork, and some of his posts weren't stellar, but he made some really good points day one. The second reason is that he thinks he looks like he's fishing for support for his lynch and is directing the day where he thinks it should go. Yes, he started off the day voting Uberninja for a bad post (it was bad), and then did a wagon analysis (which I hate), but he's not acted in accordance with pushing the day where he thinks it should go. My biggest problem with this is that he didn't give this information up front. I had to ask him why he was voting MoS, and the way he's gone about it has been subtle. He hasn't interacted with MoS to determine his thought process with this. Now he has interacted with me and Uberninja and asked others questions, and tried to get me to elaborate on why I find MoS town, but he hasn't interacted with MoS even though he's voting for him. This doesn't read to me as someone who is trying to find out if his suspicions are accurate.

Dammit. For ISO purposes.

[UberNinja]

Just think, Leela, if you never lynch scum, you can never analyze scum flips.

Lynch PereV and this game will be blown wide open.