TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Matias]

Preview edit: Why?

Because you're discussing the definition of the word "confirmed" instead of actually contributing. If you were town you would realise that it's outright anti-town to focus on things like that instead of scum hunting.

Not only that, but you're also using it as a bad excuse to express suspicion of Falcon (As if using confirmed the wrong way would make him scum!).

It's not. I believe I said "either you're scum for using it or you don't understand how White Flag works", the latter being entirely possible.

Don't go around nitpicking on your own word choices. I'm absolutely, 100% sure that you don't actually think that Falcon doesn't understand the setup. Do you really think that a player as experienced as him wouldn't read the setup?

And this reads to me like you being sarcastic and now you're pretending that you were serious.

I've been serious the whole time.

You can sit there and be like "Oh, white flag. Once you lynch two scum, you win. Cool, I understand it", but when mith voted Llamarble last year, everyone went around saying that they couldn't be connected and I doubt a single townie understood the intricacies of how this setup works. I was the same way. Shit like that can be harmful, because it is

how we lost last year

.

[Zachrulez]

I haven't really been able to get a really solid read on him throughout the game, but I did manage to file him off as town without really being able to put a reason behind why that was. Looking through his play yesterday, he pushed back against the Llamarble wagon to the point of saying he thought it might be scum driven while stating a null read on Llama himself. (The candidates for scum on that wagon at the point he said it would be bub, myself, and CES. We know CES's alignment. I know mine, and I think Bub is town who is tunneled on me.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here but obviously I don't think that it's scum driven anymore (

intentionally

at least), it would be pretty stupid to bus this early with this setup.

Yeah, I'm curious about the thought process at the time, not the thought process now.

[Johhog]

I haven't really been able to get a really solid read on him throughout the game, but I did manage to file him off as town without really being able to put a reason behind why that was. Looking through his play yesterday, he pushed back against the Llamarble wagon to the point of saying he thought it might be scum driven while stating a null read on Llama himself. (The candidates for scum on that wagon at the point he said it would be bub, myself, and CES. We know CES's alignment. I know mine, and I think Bub is town who is tunneled on me.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here but obviously I don't think that it's scum driven anymore (

intentionally

at least), it would be pretty stupid to bus this early with this setup.

Yeah, I'm curious about the thought process at the time, not the thought process now.

I did not see the case against Llamarble (I

still

can't see it in retrospect but well, we were lucky) so when I saw the votes piling up against him I thought it was scum trying to jump on an easy target. That's it, basically.

Preview edit: Why?

Because you're discussing the definition of the word "confirmed" instead of actually contributing. If you were town you would realise that it's outright anti-town to focus on things like that instead of scum hunting.

Not only that, but you're also using it as a bad excuse to express suspicion of Falcon (As if using confirmed the wrong way would make him scum!).

It's not. I believe I said "either you're scum for using it or you don't understand how White Flag works", the latter being entirely possible.

Don't go around nitpicking on your own word choices. I'm absolutely, 100% sure that you don't actually think that Falcon doesn't understand the setup. Do you really think that a player as experienced as him wouldn't read the setup?

And this reads to me like you being sarcastic and now you're pretending that you were serious.

I've been serious the whole time.

You can sit there and be like "Oh, white flag. Once you lynch two scum, you win. Cool, I understand it", but when mith voted Llamarble last year, everyone went around saying that they couldn't be connected and I doubt a single townie understood the intricacies of how this setup works. I was the same way. Shit like that can be harmful, because it is

how we lost last year

.

But that's not what we're discussing at all! It's simple really, you're not confirmed if you're not either dead or confirmed by a now dead sane cop. Buses doesn't matter at all here.

[Zachrulez]

I haven't really been able to get a really solid read on him throughout the game, but I did manage to file him off as town without really being able to put a reason behind why that was. Looking through his play yesterday, he pushed back against the Llamarble wagon to the point of saying he thought it might be scum driven while stating a null read on Llama himself. (The candidates for scum on that wagon at the point he said it would be bub, myself, and CES. We know CES's alignment. I know mine, and I think Bub is town who is tunneled on me.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here but obviously I don't think that it's scum driven anymore (

intentionally

at least), it would be pretty stupid to bus this early with this setup.

Yeah, I'm curious about the thought process at the time, not the thought process now.

I did not see the case against Llamarble (I

still

can't see it in retrospect but well, we were lucky) so when I saw the votes piling up against him I thought it was scum trying to jump on an easy target. That's it, basically.

Yeah, but who did you think WAS the scum pushing the wagon then? The thought process is fine as town if you have a particular suspect in mind, but with no clearly seen mindset of who's the likely scum pushing the wagon, it's just an empty comment meant to put a bitter taste on the wagon for anyone that's considering putting a vote there.

[Matias]

wat

That's exactly what I'm trying to explain. Because of that, you can't go around using terminology like "confirmed".

People can be lemmings, and they can bite on terminology like that and use it as their reads. That's potentially harmful.

[Zachrulez]

This confirmed townie thing is annoying because it already gets used way more often than it actually applies in non mountainous setups as it is. But this discussion isn't going to help us find scum either... so...

[Johhog]

I haven't really been able to get a really solid read on him throughout the game, but I did manage to file him off as town without really being able to put a reason behind why that was. Looking through his play yesterday, he pushed back against the Llamarble wagon to the point of saying he thought it might be scum driven while stating a null read on Llama himself. (The candidates for scum on that wagon at the point he said it would be bub, myself, and CES. We know CES's alignment. I know mine, and I think Bub is town who is tunneled on me.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here but obviously I don't think that it's scum driven anymore (

intentionally

at least), it would be pretty stupid to bus this early with this setup.

Yeah, I'm curious about the thought process at the time, not the thought process now.

I did not see the case against Llamarble (I

still

can't see it in retrospect but well, we were lucky) so when I saw the votes piling up against him I thought it was scum trying to jump on an easy target. That's it, basically.

Yeah, but who did you think WAS the scum pushing the wagon then? The thought process is fine as town if you have a particular suspect in mind, but with no clearly seen mindset of who's the likely scum pushing the wagon, it's just an empty comment meant to put a bitter taste on the wagon for anyone that's considering putting a vote there.

While what you're saying does make sense I'm not going to lie, I did not have any particular suspect in mind (I did intend to reread later but I was, well, too lazy). I did have some suspicions about all of you though. I had a strong town read on you but someone in my team (Isa IIRC) did have a scum read on you at the time. I read CES as town too but the rest of my team thought he was scum. Meanwhile I had second thoughts about Bub, someone who I've had a strong town read on all game. I do now not consider him more than null.

In short: I did believe that at least one scum were pushing the wagon but I did not know who.

[Matias]

This confirmed townie thing is annoying because it already gets used way more often than it actually applies in non mountainous setups as it is. But this discussion isn't going to help us find scum either... so...

Right, I agree. I'm defending my position, is all.

I'm waiting on Socio to come back.

[Equinox]

Vote Count 3.03

Matias (3) - Johhog, SocioPath, Captain Falcon
Nachomamma8 (2) - Zachrulez, singersigner

Not Voting (4) - Benmage, Bub Bidderskins, Matias, Nachomamma8

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

The deadline is Tuesday, June 19, 2012, at 11:30 PM EDT (UTC-4).

[singersigner]

Pleasepleaseplease help me lynch Nacho. I don't care what happens, if we don't win the game flatout, I promise I'll take a harder look at Matias even with the town read my entire team has on him.

I even bargained with CES and compromised on a Llamarble lynch (it was secondary to a Nacho lynch) to get a Nacho lynch next (then look who died). I swear I will do the same thing tomorrow if Nacho flips town; he just needs to die now.

[Captain Falcon]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nacho

Fine

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Sociopath

This needs to happen now. At the end of the day, where was Sociopath? Alone on Bub, with no real explanation. Where is Sociopath today? Sitting on Matias, with no real explanation. Part of winning Team Mafia is being a presence in-game, and Sociopath hasn't done that in the least bit. If he's scum, though, he hasn't really been forced to take any strong positions on wagons (he ignored the entire Ben-Llama debate yesterday). I'm pretty sure this the first vote he's gotten. All in all, he hasn't done shit and he's still getting away with it.

[Nachomamma8]

If you go back to Nacho's vote at the end of day 2, Llamarble was at 4 votes at the time and Benmage was at 3. He opts to vote for Benmage despite his previous suspicion of me and the fact that I happened to be on that wagon... yeeeeeeeeeeah...

You were on the Llamarble wagon first, and you stayed there longer. Benmage was also acting a hell of a lot scummier than Llama the entire time.

Sociopath has no excuse to continue playing the way he's been playing since the next scum lynch is a town win, if he doesn't pick it up at this point he's an acceptable lynch as well.

He still hasn't picked it up. Are you still going to let it slide?

I mean this isn't exactly rocket science. CES' next suspect was clearly going to be Nacho. Now that CES is dead, all you need to do is take a look at how likely it is that the remaining players in the game are to actually lynch Nacho. (As opposed to simply leaving CES and his influence alive if Nacho was town.)

I think you can do better than this is finding reasons to lynch me.

As if I wasn't going to push Nacho... I'm insulted...

Vote: Nachomamma8

No repeat case necessary. I have a 3 hour plane ride coming up and I'd like to see a lynch by the time I get back. Comeon now, people. Chop, chop.

No repeat case? What was the original?

Glad I'm conftown now... though wrong on both CES and llama

...

This confirmed townie thing is annoying because it already gets used way more often than it actually applies in non mountainous setups as it is. But this discussion isn't going to help us find scum either... so...

Right, I agree. I'm defending my position, is all.

I'm waiting on Socio to come back.

Why?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nacho

Fine

Do you not have a case either?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Matias, we get it. Nobody alive is confirmed town. Now stop with the bullshit semantics and tell us strait up: do you think benmage is town or scum?

I don't like how Matias ducked and dodged around people asking him his reads by saying "hey, nobody's

technically

confirmed." Personally, I think Llamarble's vote on Benmage makes it unlikely that benmage is scum. With that, we have the remaining playerlist:

Falcon
Bub
Singer
Benmage
Zach
Johhog
Nacho
Socio
Matias

Falcon is town in my eyes. Singer also looks town. Her constant push on TSQ/nacho reads as genuine to me. Earlier I did think Johhog was scum, but I changed my mind when I looked at his iso and saw that he had some reads and pushed them with what I found to be valid logic. Benmage is likely town as I've already stated, and I'm town because of my role PM. That leaves:

Zach
Socio
Matias
Nacho

That is an acceptable lynch pool, I think.

[SocioPath]

You can sit there and be like "Oh, white flag. Once you lynch two scum, you win. Cool, I understand it", but when mith voted Llamarble last year, everyone went around saying that they couldn't be connected and I doubt a single townie understood the intricacies of how this setup works. I was the same way. Shit like that can be harmful, because it is

how we lost last year

.

But this is wrong.
Because both were alive.
Connecting alive scum to alive scum means nothing when one of them dying means the game is over.

I don't like how he expected his vote on me/Bub to go -anywhere-.

Why is that?

At the end of the day, where was Sociopath? Alone on Bub, with no real explanation. Where is Sociopath today? Sitting on Matias, with no real explanation.

This is adorable.
And wrong.

Matias, we get it. Nobody alive is confirmed town. Now stop with the bullshit semantics and tell us strait up: do you think benmage is town or scum?

I want to see a Bub vote on Matias.
That would make me giddy.
Coach him with your votes.

[Nachomamma8]

This is adorable.
And wrong.

Why do you think Bub is scum? Why do you think Matias is scum?

[SocioPath]

Also, Amrun brought up an intersting thing about Haddock:

I think Matias tried to encourage suspicion of me without comitting himself and he's asked for opinions without giving any.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

This is what I'm talking about. Not "early at all"! "After 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon" , like that was anything other than 3 rvs votes on the same person.

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

I missed this completely, but now that I look back on it, Haddock's actions seem really scummy. In context, it seems like a very weird thing for him to say, like he perceived even slightest thing to be a threat. I don't like it.

unvote; vote: Captain Haddock

Unvote, Vote: Captain Haddock

. I'll take your word for it.

Let us look at this disjointedness.
Matias agrees with Bub, which is a quote of what Amrun has pointed out and is agreeing with HER, which was a post by Haddock originally casting suspicion ON Matias himself.
IN WHICH HADDOCK IS EXPLAINING THAT MATIAS IS ENCOURAGING SUSPICION ON HADDOCK WITHOUT COMMITTING HIMSELF.
Which is EXACTLY what he DOES with his vote on that wagon.

KEEP IN MIND that Amrun's post is way after the course of those events as they happened.
Which Matias had already responded to.
In fact Amrun's post was just regurgitation and was nothing to push any thoughts or ideas forward.
Bub jumped on that with a vote while Matias agreed with Bub's agreeing with Amrun's thoughts which was already stated by Matias and then Matias followed up with a vote.
THE DISSONANCE.

Bub is also crappy too.

I don't understand how in what in the where of Matias and Bub somehow being town.

'Oh hey it happened D1, DOESNT COUNT DOESNT COUNT. IM SAFE.'

...You mean the time where scum are more lax about the things they spew out of their mouth?
If you want to go back even farther, I've disliked Bub since his first posts his did.

And then Matias latched on him.

Also,

Also, socio's reads are total bullshit. He called two the consensus most townie players scumbuds.

I love this quote.

Unvote
Vote: Bub

The dynamic duo will be how we win this game.
The third doesn't even matter.

[Nachomamma8]

Your reasoning for Bub is because you love 884, and your reasoning for Matias being scum is because he encourages suspicion without encouraging suspicion himself, even though he already said that he found Haddock scummy and then later voted him?

Just making sure.

[Matias]

Matias, we get it. Nobody alive is confirmed town. Now stop with the bullshit semantics and tell us strait up: do you think benmage is town or scum?

I don't like how Matias ducked and dodged around people asking him his reads by saying "hey, nobody's

technically

confirmed." Personally, I think Llamarble's vote on Benmage makes it unlikely that benmage is scum. With that, we have the remaining playerlist:

Falcon
Bub
Singer
Benmage
Zach
Johhog
Nacho
Socio
Matias

Falcon is town in my eyes. Singer also looks town. Her constant push on TSQ/nacho reads as genuine to me. Earlier I did think Johhog was scum, but I changed my mind when I looked at his iso and saw that he had some reads and pushed them with what I found to be valid logic. Benmage is likely town as I've already stated, and I'm town because of my role PM. That leaves:

Zach
Socio
Matias
Nacho

That is an acceptable lynch pool, I think.

Obviously Johhog doesn't. It's not fair that you're saying that it's "bullshit semantics" when I'm defending myself. I wouldn't even be fucking talking about it if Johhog didn't try to make a fucking mountain out of a molehill.

Not all reads are town or scum. Benmage is someone who I'd be okay with a lynch on. Moreso than the other 3 I listed, but I'm looking at Socio.

But this is wrong.
Because both were alive.
Connecting alive scum to alive scum means nothing when one of them dying means the game is over.

I'm not explaining this because I feel like I've already said my peace on it.

Why is that?

Because it shows that you don't care about who gets lynched? You hardly even pushed the both of us.

[Benmage]

And yeah, my gut tells me that Matias is a bad lynch.

This.

Only he's dead wrong on SP.

[Matias]

And yeah, my gut tells me that Matias is a bad lynch.

This.

Only he's dead wrong on SP.

How?

[Matias]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

[Captain Falcon]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

This is entirely not surprising.

[singersigner]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

Wow you're lazy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

Wow, that was a lazy vote.

vote: matias

Because of this, I can definitely see a nacho/matias scumteam now. Matias is avoiding mentioning nacho and voting the next most viable wagon.