Mini 1344: Murder on the HMS Regalia - Game Over

[drmyshotgun]

I say we quarantine Espeonage tonight.

Quarantine: Espeonage

[Espeonage]

I think Espeonage is Town, but what he wanted us to do with his claim I'm unsure.

I think we should quarantine confirmed non-PRs. Like people who were cleared by Cop.
If we quarantine the Cop, he can't investigate no more. But when he's out there, he has chance of Doc protection and maybe keep investigating.

I would think it highly unlikely there is a doc in this game considering the jailkeep machanic. There might be, but I just think that town would be WAY to powerful if we had a doc as well.

[Espeonage]

EBWOP: I'm fine with being quarantined. I know I don't have a power role and I don't particularly want to be killed. Considering that I was the one who claimed and that nothing bad can come of me being quarantined I'm cool with it.

Quarantine: Espe

[RichardGHP]

Third Vote Count of Day 1

(second appears to have disappeared?)

Lynch:

[2] image - [drmyshotgun, Ser Arthur Dayne]
[1] Espeonage - [D3f3nd3r]
[1] drmyshotgun - [Phillammon]
[1] PeregrineV - [guille2015]
[2] Malakittens - [The Trollie, Espeonage]
[1] TheTrollie - [brundibar]
[1] Ser Arthur Dayne - [image]

[4] Not Voting - [PeregrineV, BK201, sword_of_omens, Malakittens]

Quarantine:

[1] D3f3nd3r - [Phillammon]
[2] Espeonage - [drmyshotgun, Espeonage]

[10] Not Voting - [PeregrineV, brundibar, TheTrollie, BK201, sword_of_omens, guille2015, Malakittens, Ser Arthur Dayne, image, D3f3nd3r]

V/LA: sword_of_omens, this weekend
Prodding: PeregrineV

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch and 7 to quarantine.
Deadline for this day is June 23, 1630h UTC+12.

[Espeonage]

What community do you come from Mala. I've played in a fair few places that have NOC games like here and usually they are really lurky and not much ever gets said. The complete opposite of what you argue happens where you come from.

[Malakittens]

Err.. I have read a few other completed games and I agree a lynch is better on D1 rather than no lynch. I will vote after all, but at this point I won't vote myself and honestly I know I have an FoS on Image, but I'm still not convinced in my mind he's scum yet. He could be, but he said Zombies was a role play. I still think Ser was fishing for something, so, my vote will most likely be placed there unless I see someone do something more scummy in the following time. I'm pretty sure I can keep MS things out of ROMS. >.>

I do agree I rather protect a CI instead of someone more scummy. Only because where I come from CI are the first person who gets killed during night and that's not good for the town.

Quarantine: Espeonage

I come from a YPP community called ROMS (Rogue OM Squad). We aren't lurky at all. We do huge posts unlike here where it's smaller. Like for instance, I sat this last current game out, but one of the players REALLY needed a replacement and I was asked politely and I didn't want to decline. I accepted, we are at the start of D6 with 21 players left and I have to read through 1,600 posts. Some are fluff, some are short, but most of the posts are very huge with content.

[Espeonage]

Well here used to have alot of large posts until people realised it stagnates the game.

Generally people here now will do alot of short posts.

For example if I need to respond in depth to four things I will make four separate posts one after another instead of doing a large post. Noone likes WoTs. I've also been in one of the top five most post heavy day 1s. Then again that game had real time mechanics that meant we had to carefully pick how long we wanted each day to go for.

What does CI stand for?

[Malakittens]

Confirmed Innocent/Claimed Innocent.

[guille2015]

I am not in agreement of Quarantining vanilla Town. The only position that I'd jail a VT is if he/she were confirmed and there is no heavy suspicion on anybody else.

The priority is to Jail the most suspicious players. Scum would love this to happen. They'd know who not to target and they can use whatever power they have.

Like I said previously, most of the players that are advocating to jail known VTs are assuming that mafia has no PR. 3 scum players seems likely for a game this size. (Albeit, I don't know what is likely on mafiascum. I assume that the proportions are similar to were I am from.) If mafia has 2 PR and we jail one scum, they'd have to sacrifice the PR in order to kill, assuming they can only perform, one action. This PR could be Busdriver, Roleblock or even watcher or role cop. I would like to hinder mafia as much as possible.

[guille2015]

PeregrineV has not said anything in a while. My vote stays.

I think there are a few players that need some prodding.

[Espeonage]

I am not in agreement of Quarantining vanilla Town. The only position that I'd jail a VT is if he/she were confirmed and there is no heavy suspicion on anybody else.

Nope try again. Ok think about what the quarantine is. It's a jailkeep, the person both can't be targetted and also is roleblocked. It's imperfect art so it's hard to judge it by the roleblock portion. Math says to not roleblock anyone simply because even if mafia have powers (which is likely given the mechanic.) they are unlikely to have more than town.

The priority is to Jail the most suspicious players. Scum would love this to happen. They'd know who not to target and they can use whatever power they have.

Why? Hmm, what happens if we hit the multitude of town that also should have power roles? So what if they know they can't kill someone, That person still can't die. Let me ask you a question. It may help me understand where you're coming from: Why do we always lynch day 1? (btw this is a highly relevent question as to why you are using the fallacies you are using.)

Like I said previously, most of the players that are advocating to jail known VTs are assuming that mafia has no PR. 3 scum players seems likely for a game this size. (Albeit, I don't know what is likely on mafiascum. I assume that the proportions are similar to were I am from.) If mafia has 2 PR and we jail one scum, they'd have to sacrifice the PR in order to kill, assuming they can only perform, one action. This PR could be Busdriver, Roleblock or even watcher or role cop. I would like to hinder mafia as much as possible.

No we're not, at least I know. It would be a pretty messed up game to have a communal jailkeep and not have mafia power roles, js. Yes there are most probably three, unless we have two scumteams, in which case there are probably four scum. That's a pretty big assumption. Not speaking for Richard here but site meta here is that the kill is the factional ability so anyone can perform it IN ADDITION to their normal role, so it becomes highly unlikely that they would have to give up a power role. Also, tbh, if you look at the maths of it, you are more likely to be a hindrance to mafia if we quarantine a VT because it takes out of the NK pool and we can choose who we want to be able to stay in the game. Remember if it's done on (psuedo aka scumreading based) randomosity like you are suggesting then we are most likely more likely to hit a town power role than a scum one. As much as you might have good intentions, harming town outweighs harming scum (given the inherent scum advantage that seems to be going around these days.)

responses in blod

Also I've never understood the point of voting lurkers. Why pressure them into voting when they aren't even looking at the thread. And considering most people will unvote if they get replaced there is actually very little incentive to actually respond to anti-lurker votes.

Brains people, we have them for a reason.

[Espeonage]

EBWOP kNo we're not, at least I know it's likely.

[guille2015]

Nope try again. Ok think about what the quarantine is. It's a jailkeep, the person both can't be targetted and also is roleblocked. It's imperfect art so it's hard to judge it by the roleblock portion. Math says to not roleblock anyone simply because even if mafia have powers (which is likely given the mechanic.) they are unlikely to have more than town.

Agreed, but the argument was to jail a confirmed VT. Aside of the fact that we don't know if this person is a VT, could be a PR saying they are a VT.

Why? Hmm, what happens if we hit the multitude of town that also should have power roles? So what if they know they can't kill someone, That person still can't die. Let me ask you a question. It may help me understand where you're coming from: Why do we always lynch day 1? (btw this is a highly relevent question as to why you are using the fallacies you are using.)

Sorry, I messed up something, This is what I meant to say:

The priority is to Jail the most suspicious players. Scum would love

to jail a VT (aka someone other than them)

. They'd know who not to target and they can use whatever power they have.

I take it because statistically speaking, it is better for town to lynch day 1 on a 2of4 game with 9 player. There are arrangements in player numbers were it is not to a town advantage to lynch Day 1 (I do not know which, I read it in the wiki somewhere). However, I am not one that says to always Lynch day 1. I only say that on 2of4 games with 9 players.

I do not know what fallacy I am using, please point it out.

No we're not, at least know [it's likely].

d3f3nd3r's situational analysis did not take into account that scum has PR. I am basing my argument on this post #94. You are in agreement with this, which makes you part of the "we".

It would be a pretty messed up game to have a communal jailkeep and not have mafia power roles, js. Yes there are most probably three, unless we have two scumteams, in which case there are probably four scum. That's a pretty big assumption.

I agree.

Not speaking for Richard here but site meta here is that the kill is the factional ability so anyone can perform it IN ADDITION to their normal role, so it becomes highly unlikely that they would have to give up a power role.

I am relatively new here, so I am not aware of the norm. This is not an Open game so you shouldn't know this information unless this is the default norm for faction kills.
I stated in my argument that I am assuming that the PR could not be perform in addition to the faction Kill. This I say because I am used to this mechanic on the games I played outside of mafiascum. I am aware that this is allowed in Newbie games, but I am ignorant as what is the norm on other games.
Regardless, if the PR can be used in addition to the faction kill, then my argument falls and it is better to jail confirmed VTs or no one at all.

Also, tbh, if you look at the maths of it, you are more likely to be a hindrance to mafia if we quarantine a VT because it takes out of the NK pool and we can choose who we want to be able to stay in the game. Remember if it's done on (psuedo aka scumreading based) randomosity like you are suggesting then we are most likely more likely to hit a town power role than a scum one. As much as you might have good intentions, harming town outweighs harming scum (given the inherent scum advantage that seems to be going around these days.)

Again, this is true if the faction Kill is independent from the PR. I need a veteran to confirm if this is the norm, please.

I am not suggesting randomosity. I admit that scum reading is flawed, but it gets the job done at some points. You are likely to hit a town PR if you target known VTs. A town PR will not confirm that they are a PR so that they wont get Jailed (I sure hope they don't anyways). Now I am confused, are you in favor of Quarantine or not?

[PeregrineV]

Sorry, weekends are mostly spent away from the computer, unless I get lucky or unlucky.

RVS

Vote: Brunibar

for looking like Baron Munchasen

Unvote

because I see a real vote already.

[PeregrineV]

*Rolls a d12*

Vote: sword_of_omens

.

Quarantine: sword_of_omens

.
Can't have any zombies wandering around after we lynch them.

Vote: Image

If you are voting to lynch (which is what a vote is for), then you are voting to not quarantine anyone since they will already be dead.
While drmyshotgun and defender both did this also, you were the first, therefore the most suspicious for it.

Quarantine: Espeonage

although this may change. I don't like the early "claim", and disagree with the rationale behind it in 74.

[image]

Say we have a cop. He says that he got a "scum/guilty/not town" result on someone. If nobody counterclaims, quarantine him.

Except we can't quarantine them more than once in a row. I guess it would be useful if we had two scum outed on the same day.

The other key thing about quarantine is that, unlike a lynch, we aren't likely to get as much information out of it this early in the game. Thus I would suggest using quarantine on someone we find sufficiently scummy in the hopes of hitting a scum PR today, or using it not at all or on someone we think is towny enough to want to keep alive.

[sword_of_omens]

ok, back from my V/LA
and caught up:

Claim: basically a vanilla townie.

I definitely do not like this claim right out of the gate, i'll explain why below...

Now my claim. With a mechanic like Quarantine, I figured that everyone would be jumping to claim VT if they are in fact VT

in the hope that it would mean that there is less likelihood of wasting it on someone that doesn't have a power

. For the cynical ones, there are 'likely' to be goons who would also claim VT as it is the most safe claim to make, and goons also have nothing to do at night as kills are 'generally' a team thing meaning kills should go through regardless of quarantine. I want to make this point very clear so that we don't waste time early game in the case that a townie gets quarantined and scum think they're smart but no killing. This won't work until there is only 1 scum left.

This doesn't make sense. VT's should not be claiming. If all the VT's claimed, we would single handedly paint a target on all of our PR's. and yes, it sounds like you ARE rolefishing..

No I don't want everyone to claim. I expected a couple of claims which was one of the reasons I wanted to get in early.

I was assuming everyone in the game power role or not to be claiming VT on the first day

. I wouldn't consider it to be rolefishing. I have been working under the assumption everyone would respect the mechanic instead of ignoring it. Or using it stupidly.

now, here you are pretty much stating that your claim shouldn't be taken serious...so why claim then? especially since you seemed to be serious about it with your above statements.

I am not in agreement of Quarantining vanilla Town. The only position that I'd jail a VT is if he/she were confirmed and there is no heavy suspicion on anybody else.

The priority is to Jail the most suspicious players. Scum would love to jail a VT (aka someone other than them). They'd know who not to target and they can use whatever power they have.

i agree with the statements above...

It would be a pretty messed up game to have a communal jailkeep and not have mafia power roles, js. Yes there are most probably three, unless we have two scumteams, in which case there are probably four scum. That's a pretty big assumption.

why are we even talking about 2 scum teams right now? There is no reason to assume that there are 2 scum teams

you are more likely to be a hindrance to mafia if we quarantine a VT because it takes out of the NK pool and we can choose who we want to be able to stay in the game. Remember if it's done on (psuedo aka scumreading based) randomosity like you are suggesting then we are most likely more likely to hit a town power role than a scum one. As much as you might have good intentions, harming town outweighs harming scum (given the inherent scum advantage that seems to be going around these days.)

I don't believe this at all.. VT's are VT's, I don't think that they should be taken out of the NK list just because someone has claimed VT. All it does is put our PR's at a greater risk, plus scum (a Goon especially) could easily take advantage of it by claiming VT, trying to make themselves look town.

vote: Espeonage

[TheTrollie]

I highly agree with sword's argument.

VOTE: Espeonage

Our ideal quarantine is scum. even if it doesn't ensure someone else won't make the kill, it will prevent scum PRs from using their powers. we should lynch our top scum read and quarantine the second. I would agree that there might arise a time when confirmed townie could be the subject of a quarantine but (a) we do not have any confirmations yet and (b) i dont think anything has happened yet to warrant that strategy D1

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Our ideal quarantine is scum. even if it doesn't ensure someone else won't make the kill, it will prevent scum PRs from using their powers. we should lynch our top scum read and quarantine the second. I would agree that there might arise a time when confirmed townie could be the subject of a quarantine but (a) we do not have any confirmations yet and (b) i dont think anything has happened yet to warrant that strategy D1

Meh. I think in this setup, it would make sense to put a tracker out there, since with a quarantine, one of the scums can be jailed, and then (one of) other(s) will be forced to send the kill in. This is one of the reasons that I'm actually thinking that not jailing anyone is rather a bad idea, and it's not taking advantage of our resources.

On another note, I think I'll be sheeping for a while.

VOTE: Espeonage.

[PeregrineV]

I think the Quarantine can be used to do either protect strong town read or, after we lynch first scum, as a second vote after the lynch. Once we nail the first scum, if we are lynching scum, then we should be quarantining our second suspect to prevent the NK.

I'm less worried about blocking a town PR, since there is less likelihood (percentage-wise) of doing so.

[Espeonage]

@ sword:
1. okay
2. Yes it does. A couple of them. So? How so?
3. Ok, I didn't trivialise my claim. I explained that I though everyone would want to do it. I wanted to make sure I was in the few to claim before it became dangerous to have more people claim. I claimed to give town knowledge. When we are ready to roleblock someone then my claim can be ignored. However when we are this early and the like it would be a bad idea to be blocking out town power roles. I would rather let scum be than to hurt the town in the early game. Especially considering it appears we have a weak day game.
4. Covering all bases to make sure I let him know of the posibilities. Read bro, it was right above it. You're missing the point, the claim isn't a cry for cred, it's to take me out of the power role pool. Goons are really the only scum that can get away with claiming VT, any of the scum could use the factional kill. What I'm trying to say is, what kind of difference does it make if I or anyone else that hypothetically claimed vt is actually a goon. The rationale behind it is the exact same. In addition scum gain nothing from that whole process. So basically even if I was scum, you're argument would only amount to barking up one tree and have me fall out of another just coz.

Unvote, Vote: The Trollie

That is in no way an acceptable post at this stage of the discussion.

[Espeonage]

I think the Quarantine can be used to do either protect strong town read or, after we lynch first scum, as a second vote after the lynch. Once we nail the first scum, if we are lynching scum, then we should be quarantining our second suspect to prevent the NK.

I'm less worried about blocking a town PR, since there is less likelihood (percentage-wise) of doing so.

Two things wrong here. Quarantine gets locked in when the lynch majority does. No changing it after the flip.
And bear in mind that town most likely have more or even PRs than scum. Your argument of percentage is flat wrong.

[Espeonage]

EBWOP: Remember PV, Goon is not a PR.

[TheTrollie]

sorry to underwhelm you.

@PV - we should definitely be worried about scum PRs though hence why i suggest quarantining scum.

[guille2015]

@players with plenty of games played.
What is considered normal, that the faction kill can be used by any mafia member regardless of them using their PR (i.e. as in the 2of4 newbie games) or faction kills can only be performed by scum not using their powers?

---

It's good to know that some of you are in agreement with me, but being in disagreement does not merit a lynch on Espeonage.

I am suspicious of Espeonage, but not because he disagrees with me, but from a couple of reads I got in our discussion.

FOS Espionage

until I get the question above answered by a few players.

and

UNVOTE: PeregrineV

---

Mod ~ Edited in guille2015's 125 which had disappeared.