Open 413 - Duck, Duck, Shoot! (Game over!)

[Lastsurvivor]

A friendly reminder that prods on players may be requested after 48 hours~

[drmyshotgun]

Requesting prod on Quinter, Phillammon, Shattered Viewpoint

Shattered Viewpoint is probably scum.
Will read OmNom's stuff in a bit.

[Lastsurvivor]

Quinter is LA, but I will send him an unofficial prod.

I shall gladly prod the others as well.

[Phillammon]

Prod Dodgin before I go off to school, will be more useful in around 5 hours.

[Om of the Nom]

You are not obvious town to me. No one is, yet.

Something must be wrong in your head then. I am always super duper obv townie and that's the way I like it :3
Responding to AcRv now.

Um. You claimed scum in Open 384, when I was Modding.

Because that was the most obviously pro-town gambit ever because it started a huge amount of discussion as intended. I knew what I was doing then, I didn't claim scum blindly.

Also, my stance on Jal is leaning-town right now. I haven't bothered to read past Page 3 but I'm not sure if I like his wagon. If I wasn't on AcRv I would probably be on Phillamon.

No. Claiming scum is never pro-town, and some Mods will blacklist you for it. You're lucky I don't have problems with people fakeclaiming scum in my games. Be that as it may, not having problems with it, does not mean that it is not anti-town.

It was the most super obvious gambit and it still worked. There was no problem with it at all. I didn't even get lynched for it.

[AcRv]

... I really don't want to have to go through that quote mess again with Ommy's 241, so I'm going to find another way of doing it so it's not as chaotic and annoying to write.

Because when every town member is the same role, so we can assume someone claiming isn't doing it seriously.

Could you reword this please? I can't make sense of it.

I'm saying that in a game which has two alignments, with each alignment only getting one role, claiming that early doesn't mean anything... because it doesn't remove a possibility about who has a PR or anything.

May I ask how you'd rather have it worded? If not I'm asking anyway

The part in particular I didn't like was, "he got wrong the role that every tonwie has," to me, it sounds like you used a few choice words in a few choice places to create a bigger impact. I would have worded it like, "he misinterpreted the role that each town member has." "Got wrong," seems way too absolute to me

Well, isn't not understanding your role getting it wrong? You can't be a little bit wrong, it's an absolute term.

I don't think it's too much to assume the scum were talking about ways not to lose...

That's not what I meant. You're assuming he didn't read his role PM. Which means you aren't looking at all the other possibilities. For example, he could just be mafia playing dumb.

Yes, it could be. We did decide it was null already, however, so I'm not seeing the point in continuing this.

Because scum aren't a fan of having members die. Well they shouldn't be, at least...

What do you think bussing is for?

You don't bus that early in a game - you bus when they made something really obvious that's going to be picked up on anyway. You don't bus someone for the heck of it. Not normally, at least.

Already been down this road.

Quote it please.

Oh, whoops... quote tag messed up *shrug*

Just realised that drmyshotgun is back to null because I just realised the WIFOMfest that we can have over that...
If Jal is scum then so is drmyshotgun, and if drmyshotgun is town then so is Jal.

Phillamon is still townie, however.

P-Edit: I have no idea, he wasn't in queue either... I say we beat him with a baseball bat and see if he explodes with candy.

Although now I think about it, I do see a bit of a problem with my logic.

This was me saying things early game to get me moving. If you read later, you see that I realised I was wrong on this account too.

The absolutes are really bad sounding though. A much better way to say it would have been, "If Jal is scum, I'm willing to bet gunny is too, and if gunny is town the I'm betting Jal will be too."

So you don't like that I sounded too confident.

Shooting down a case against player x is defending player x.

No it's not, as mcqueen said.

Defend:

n.

To ward off, repel (an attack or attacker)

That's what he was doing. He was repelling a case that someone else was putting forward. By definition, that is defending someone.

I also believe I acknowledged this later on.

Quote where you did this please.

You quoted from the post that I said it in dude, I'm worried that you were able to miss it. But, here it is:

Although now I think about it, I do see a bit of a problem with my logic.

I would link to one instance to it, but that was lost in the crash... I'm sure if you looked you could find occassions where it's done. I can understand why they do it too, hence why I'm doing it. I only do it early game so scum don't give me an early town vibe and then mess with me a bit later on.

But if they start acting like that once they see your reason for your town reads, then surely that would be suspicious to you wouldn't it? It's a shit reason to not give out your town reads. You aren't just witholding information from the scum, but also from the town.

Or town could be doing it because, you know, it's a TOWN thing to do, and so TOWN are naturally going to do things that TOWN naturally do.

Exactly. Saying I'm scum for not explaining my townread is WIFOM, because it can just as easily be town as it could be scum

Same can be said for any scumtell. This isn't a proper defense.

There are many things that town would never do that scum could do.

Then why'd he say "we"? And I believe at this point I had also posted against him.

Maybe the "we" meant he was attacking you and Phillamon instead of just one of you?

Why don't you ask him?

I skimmed briefly through AcRv's walls. Only this caught my eye:

Exactly. Saying I'm scum for not explaining my townread is WIFOM, because it can just as easily be town as it could be scum

No one has said you're scum because of that.

Sorry, I just see long paragraphs against me with that thrown in - can you clarify what is and isn't part of the case? And also, Ommy kinda did.

AcRv

: Challenge: Start doing some scum hunting.

When you're tired, and you have to go through walls, you don't really have time to do that. Although to be honest I haven't felt as much with this game as others. That just might be my mood though *shrug*

One thing has been bugging me - does anyone here know Shattered Viewpoint's meta? Is he usually this... vague?

P-Edit: There was a pretty epic gambit I saw which involved someone intentionally making a "scumslip" solely to break RVS.

[Om of the Nom]

... I really don't want to have to go through that quote mess again with Ommy's 241, so I'm going to find another way of doing it so it's not as chaotic and annoying to write.

Because when every town member is the same role, so we can assume someone claiming isn't doing it seriously.

Could you reword this please? I can't make sense of it.

I'm saying that in a game which has two alignments, with each alignment only getting one role, claiming that early doesn't mean anything... because it doesn't remove a possibility about who has a PR or anything.

Ok, makes sense.

May I ask how you'd rather have it worded? If not I'm asking anyway

The part in particular I didn't like was, "he got wrong the role that every tonwie has," to me, it sounds like you used a few choice words in a few choice places to create a bigger impact. I would have worded it like, "he misinterpreted the role that each town member has." "Got wrong," seems way too absolute to me

Well, isn't not understanding your role getting it wrong? You can't be a little bit wrong, it's an absolute term.

There is misunderstanding, then there is getting it wrong. The word choice made it sound like he got it completely wrong. Whereas all he did was get the ability messed up.

I don't think it's too much to assume the scum were talking about ways not to lose...

That's not what I meant. You're assuming he didn't read his role PM. Which means you aren't looking at all the other possibilities. For example, he could just be mafia playing dumb.

Yes, it could be. We did decide it was null already, however, so I'm not seeing the point in continuing this.

Okay then.

Because scum aren't a fan of having members die. Well they shouldn't be, at least...

What do you think bussing is for?

You don't bus that early in a game - you bus when they made something really obvious that's going to be picked up on anyway. You don't bus someone for the heck of it. Not normally, at least.

I bus as scum all the time.

This was me saying things early game to get me moving. If you read later, you see that I realised I was wrong on this account too.

The absolutes are really bad sounding though. A much better way to say it would have been, "If Jal is scum, I'm willing to bet gunny is too, and if gunny is town the I'm betting Jal will be too."

So you don't like that I sounded too confident.

You didn't sound confident at all. It just sounded like lots of absolutes to me. I really didn't like it.

Shooting down a case against player x is defending player x.

No it's not, as mcqueen said.

Defend:

n.

To ward off, repel (an attack or attacker)

That doesn't specify who it's defending.

That's what he was doing. He was repelling a case that someone else was putting forward. By definition, that is defending someone.

But you are assuming he was defending someone in the first place.

I also believe I acknowledged this later on.

Quote where you did this please.

You quoted from the post that I said it in dude, I'm worried that you were able to miss it. But, here it is:

Although now I think about it, I do see a bit of a problem with my logic.

Eh.

I would link to one instance to it, but that was lost in the crash... I'm sure if you looked you could find occassions where it's done. I can understand why they do it too, hence why I'm doing it. I only do it early game so scum don't give me an early town vibe and then mess with me a bit later on.

But if they start acting like that once they see your reason for your town reads, then surely that would be suspicious to you wouldn't it? It's a shit reason to not give out your town reads. You aren't just witholding information from the scum, but also from the town.

Or town could be doing it because, you know, it's a TOWN thing to do, and so TOWN are naturally going to do things that TOWN naturally do.

So basically anyone who isn't following your towntells is scum. Nice to know.

Exactly. Saying I'm scum for not explaining my townread is WIFOM, because it can just as easily be town as it could be scum

Same can be said for any scumtell. This isn't a proper defense.

There are many things that town would never do that scum could do.

Like what?

Then why'd he say "we"? And I believe at this point I had also posted against him.

Maybe the "we" meant he was attacking you and Phillamon instead of just one of you?

Why don't you ask him?

Did you ask him?

Also Shattered Viewpoint is NS. I think this is his meta.

[Om of the Nom]

@Everyone: Why is the person you are voting scum?

[andrew94]

Can you guys not do that.
thats scummy as shit cos i dont even know where the quotes came from.

[Om of the Nom]

Why is it scummy?

[AcRv]

This was me saying things early game to get me moving. If you read later, you see that I realised I was wrong on this account too.

The absolutes are really bad sounding though. A much better way to say it would have been, "If Jal is scum, I'm willing to bet gunny is too, and if gunny is town the I'm betting Jal will be too."

So you don't like that I sounded too confident.

You didn't sound confident at all. It just sounded like lots of absolutes to me. I really didn't like it.

People use absolutes when they're confident

Shooting down a case against player x is defending player x.

No it's not, as mcqueen said.

Defend:

n.

To ward off, repel (an attack or attacker)

That doesn't specify who it's defending.

I think it's pretty obvious when there was one guy under fire in the quoted post.

That's what he was doing. He was repelling a case that someone else was putting forward. By definition, that is defending someone.

But you are assuming he was defending someone in the first place.

I already said that he was, when I quoted the definition of "defend". In fact, right above I say what defines defending, saying he was, and now you're sayinf I'm assuming he was defending someone. When I gave reason as to why he was. Looks like you're trying to keep this going longer than it needs to.

I would link to one instance to it, but that was lost in the crash... I'm sure if you looked you could find occassions where it's done. I can understand why they do it too, hence why I'm doing it. I only do it early game so scum don't give me an early town vibe and then mess with me a bit later on.

But if they start acting like that once they see your reason for your town reads, then surely that would be suspicious to you wouldn't it? It's a shit reason to not give out your town reads. You aren't just witholding information from the scum, but also from the town.

Or town could be doing it because, you know, it's a TOWN thing to do, and so TOWN are naturally going to do things that TOWN naturally do.

So basically anyone who isn't following your towntells is scum. Nice to know.

Where did I say you had to agree with it? I just said that it's not scummy to not explain town reads

Exactly. Saying I'm scum for not explaining my townread is WIFOM, because it can just as easily be town as it could be scum

Same can be said for any scumtell. This isn't a proper defense.

There are many things that town would never do that scum could do.

Like what?

Counterclaiming PRs is the first that comes to mind. Not applicable in this case however. Town do things because it's their thought process, scum do things to look like they're thinking about things. Example, town don't put up analysises which are the same as someone elses - scum do it to make it look like they're being pro-town. Town say things like "I was thinking similarly to that guy" instead of saying the same thing as that guy in a different format.

Then why'd he say "we"? And I believe at this point I had also posted against him.

Maybe the "we" meant he was attacking you and Phillamon instead of just one of you?

Why don't you ask him?

Did you ask him?

I'm not the one who thinks that he was attacking two people. If you want to know his motives, then ask him for them, because I'm not psychic. I'm pretty certain what his motives are, that's why I didn't ask - because I thought it was pretty obvious

Also Shattered Viewpoint is NS. I think this is his meta.

He is? No, that can't be right...

@Everyone: Why is the person you are voting scum?

Jal's response to pressure which later proved wrong seems off to me. Because he didn't explain why my logic was wrong for a while, and instead tried to say he wasn't defending him, claims I didn't address a point I did, and just doesn't offer anything productive in poking holes in my logic, said that voting someone you think is scum while posting reasoning isn't putting a case... he seems to not want to be labelled as doing anything relating to other players.

Can you guys not do that.
thats scummy as shit cos i dont even know where the quotes came from.

... It's been going back and forth. If you saw the first one you should know where everything came from. And I linked back to the most recent one as well, so they're all connected anyway.

[Om of the Nom]

This was me saying things early game to get me moving. If you read later, you see that I realised I was wrong on this account too.

The absolutes are really bad sounding though. A much better way to say it would have been, "If Jal is scum, I'm willing to bet gunny is too, and if gunny is town the I'm betting Jal will be too."

So you don't like that I sounded too confident.

You didn't sound confident at all. It just sounded like lots of absolutes to me. I really didn't like it.

People use absolutes when they're confident

You were needlessly confident though. It seemed too early to be confident, especially considering noting really scummy happened.

Shooting down a case against player x is defending player x.

No it's not, as mcqueen said.

Defend:

n.

To ward off, repel (an attack or attacker)

That doesn't specify who it's defending.

I think it's pretty obvious when there was one guy under fire in the quoted post.

Stop assuming things.

That's what he was doing. He was repelling a case that someone else was putting forward. By definition, that is defending someone.

But you are assuming he was defending someone in the first place.

I already said that he was, when I quoted the definition of "defend". In fact, right above I say what defines defending, saying he was, and now you're sayinf I'm assuming he was defending someone. When I gave reason as to why he was. Looks like you're trying to keep this going longer than it needs to.

I don't remember you giving a reason for him to defend someone. Please quote it for me.

I would link to one instance to it, but that was lost in the crash... I'm sure if you looked you could find occassions where it's done. I can understand why they do it too, hence why I'm doing it. I only do it early game so scum don't give me an early town vibe and then mess with me a bit later on.

But if they start acting like that once they see your reason for your town reads, then surely that would be suspicious to you wouldn't it? It's a shit reason to not give out your town reads. You aren't just witholding information from the scum, but also from the town.

Or town could be doing it because, you know, it's a TOWN thing to do, and so TOWN are naturally going to do things that TOWN naturally do.

So basically anyone who isn't following your towntells is scum. Nice to know.

Where did I say you had to agree with it? I just said that it's not scummy to not explain town reads

Where did I say I had to agree with it? Explain your town reads please. There is nothing to hide.

Exactly. Saying I'm scum for not explaining my townread is WIFOM, because it can just as easily be town as it could be scum

Same can be said for any scumtell. This isn't a proper defense.

There are many things that town would never do that scum could do.

Like what?

Counterclaiming PRs is the first that comes to mind. Not applicable in this case however. Town do things because it's their thought process, scum do things to look like they're thinking about things. Example, town don't put up analysises which are the same as someone elses - scum do it to make it look like they're being pro-town. Town say things like "I was thinking similarly to that guy" instead of saying the same thing as that guy in a different format.

Nope, not always. I've seen town do that before.

Then why'd he say "we"? And I believe at this point I had also posted against him.

Maybe the "we" meant he was attacking you and Phillamon instead of just one of you?

Why don't you ask him?

Did you ask him?

I'm not the one who thinks that he was attacking two people. If you want to know his motives, then ask him for them, because I'm not psychic. I'm pretty certain what his motives are, that's why I didn't ask - because I thought it was pretty obvious

So, you didn't bother to ask about his motives, yet you sit there and attack him for it. Yeah, nice try.

Also Shattered Viewpoint is NS. I think this is his meta.

He is? No, that can't be right...

Yes, he is.

@Everyone: Why is the person you are voting scum?

Jal's response to pressure which later proved wrong seems off to me. Because he didn't explain why my logic was wrong for a while, and instead tried to say he wasn't defending him, claims I didn't address a point I did, and just doesn't offer anything productive in poking holes in my logic, said that voting someone you think is scum while posting reasoning isn't putting a case... he seems to not want to be labelled as doing anything relating to other players.

Examples please.

[andrew94]

its scummy because it looks like your both giving content, but your not...

i not reading it 2day

[Om of the Nom]

How are we not? You aren't even reading it.

[kondi2424]

@AcRv: I'm pretty sure "defend" is a verb.

[mcqueen]

On mobile, so excuse me for any mistakes.

I do not care what the

gambit

did,

claiming scum as town

is never pro-town. Now sit down.

You are not obvious town to me. No one is, yet.

Something must be wrong in your head then. I am always super duper obv townie and that's the way I like it :3
Responding to AcRv now.

Um. You claimed scum in Open 384, when I was Modding.

Because that was the most obviously pro-town gambit ever because it started a huge amount of discussion as intended. I knew what I was doing then, I didn't claim scum blindly.

Also, my stance on Jal is leaning-town right now. I haven't bothered to read past Page 3 but I'm not sure if I like his wagon. If I wasn't on AcRv I would probably be on Phillamon.

No. Claiming scum is never pro-town, and some Mods will blacklist you for it. You're lucky I don't have problems with people fakeclaiming scum in my games. Be that as it may, not having problems with it, does not mean that it is not anti-town.

It was the most super obvious gambit and it still worked. There was no problem with it at all. I didn't even get lynched for it.

[mcqueen]

@AcRv: I'm pretty sure "defend" is a verb.

kondi2424, even you got to agree here - he gave the definition of defending himself, then tried to use it for other people. LOL.

[Om of the Nom]

The action of claiming scum as town is not pro-town, yes. But the intent of it may be pro-town.

[mcqueen]

The action of claiming scum as town is not pro-town, yes. But the intent of it may be pro-town.

My main point focused on just the claim. That is anti-town, making you not obviously town. (Just pointing this out, you aren't always obviously town, like you said earlier.)

[Phillammon]

Om: VOTE: Om of the Nom
Because of hideously skewed ideas about protown play, and failing to properly read the thread when leveling accusations. A majority of what you accused me of I already responded to, and you glossed over. Besides which, intent is irrelevant if you claim scum. You just don't do that, as either faction, or it's playing against your wincon, honestly.

[Om of the Nom]

Do I have to read the thread?
I've caught scum without reading the thread when it was like Day 3 or something.
What are your ideas of pro-town play?
I like how you assumed I actually read past page 3.
Quote where you responded to everything, instead of just voting me.

[kondi2424]

I'll settle this so that you guys can move on with your lives. Where's the game Om did this in?

Either way Om is being incredibly obvious about his alignment.

[Om of the Nom]

I mean seriously, that post was terribad and you should feel terribad. That was a horribly opportunistic vote on me and you know it. Why does all that stuff you said make me scum?

PEDIT: Open 394. Context was, game was stagnating and I claimed scum as an obvious gambit to both get reactions and generate discussion. They were both achieved.

[kondi2424]

Typo? You weren't in 394.

[Om of the Nom]

384 sorry.