[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Hoopla]

So, the Nexus doesn't know its role? You've just made an annoying, random role even more annoying and random.

[Guy_Named_Riggs]

I made it that way to try and prevent the strategy of claiming nexus and lynching them straight a way.
There is a reason why its called

Jumbled

mafia

[Hoopla]

I guess so. A Nexus can still be NK'ed, though, so the setup is essentially a Doc and a Cop with occasionally wrong results. A Naive Miller is another role that would create a similar environment.

[Guy_Named_Riggs]

how does a nexus get NK'ed? by my understanding of the role, anytarget directed at the nexus gets redirected. I take it to mean that if a kill is targetted toward the nexus, it would hit someone else instead

[Hoopla]

The classic interpretation of the role is that it can't be NK'ed - I guess since you aren't telling the player they're the Nexus, it could work.

[xyzzy]

Rapid Fire

2 Mafia
10 Town

Each day the town may lynch two people (one at a time), and each night the mafia may kill two people.

---

The town only has a 31% chance of winning assuming random play, but I believe the fact that a town loss will involve 6 lynches and 4 mafia kills gives the town a pretty significant boost; 50% more kills via lynching than mafia killing is a pretty big deal.

[Junpei]

2v10
2v8 at night
2v6 day2
2v4 at night
GG
Town gets 4 mislynches to the scums' 4 kills + 2 endgame kills

Honestly with that type of setup I'd say that it's going to be inherently townsided with the back to back lynches. 4 mislynches is pretty good, though this isn't far off from 11v2 mountainous which is balanced. So yeah I guess it's balanced in my opinion.

[Hoopla]

though this isn't far off from 11v2 mountainous which is balanced.

Where did you get this idea..?

[callforjudgement]

11:2 has never been won by town, right?

The major issue with n:2 mountainous, though, is that it's really demoralizing for both factions. Scum can't do better than lynch a townie every day, day after day. And they're probably going to manage it several days in a row. It may be that scum win it so much, not because of any balance issues, but just because everyone gets bored and trollish around day 4 or 5.

[xyzzy]

It's convenient, then, that the setup I proposed can't go longer than three days, isn't it?

Also, I misspoke slightly, as Junpei pointed out -- a perfect mafia win is over in two days, but the town can get as many as six lynches as long as one of the first four is mafia. So between 1 and 3 days.

It's arguable that two lynches in a row without a night phase isn't really a single day, but I think the fact that there's no nightkill makes a big difference -- in mountainous, every lynch is immediately followed up with a death that can't be predicted. There's always a sort of fear of lynching too early, because if you make an error you lose two townies at once; the thing that makes the situation in Rapid Fire interesting is that you have decreased tension before the first lynch but increased tension before the second one, because instead of a monotonous 2 unknowns revealed at a time for the whole game, you have 1-3-1-3-1-1. I think that makes all the difference for players, because the importance of getting each lynch right wavers.

[callforjudgement]

I don't think your setup has the same problems as 11:2; I just elaborating on Hoopla's response to Junpei. It might have different problems, though. (I wouldn't enjoy playing in it because I prefer a small playerlist and plenty of time for discussion, whereas that mechanic seems designed for the opposite; people with different preferences from me might well enjoy it, though.)

[Junpei]

though this isn't far off from 11v2 mountainous which is balanced.

Where did you get this idea..?

Someone told me that 11v2 was balanced and that 10v3 was slightly scum sided, so in 10v3 you need extra town strength.

I guess that's wrong?

[callforjudgement]

In mountainous, each extra scum makes a big difference, in theory. I remember seeing a calculation that you need something like fifty townies to balance three scum in a mountainous (and that setup would suck and should never be run ever). 11v2 is close to theoretically balanced (I can't remember whether it's 11v2 or 13v2 that's better-balanced), but the theory is reasonably dubious because town has never actually won it.

Extra town strength goes a long way to curtailing scum's power, though.

[Timeater]

Dont Shoot the Messenger (ventrilo/mumble)

4 Vanillas
1 Messenger
2 Mafia

* Nightless
* People are randomly seperated into two chat rooms, 3 people in each one.
* There is 1 guaranteed scum in each room. They will always be seperated. They have daytalk.
* Votes are tallied like how they would be in a regular game.
* The Messenger can move between the rooms at will, while anyone else must stay in their designated room.
* Whoever is lynched first can make a Vengekill. This applies to both town and mafia.
* After the first lynch, everyone is moved into one room.

edit: v.2

Dont Shoot the Messenger (ventrilo/mumble)

4 Vanillas
1 Town Messenger
2 Goons
or
5 Vanillas
1 Scum Messenger
1 Goon


* Nightless
* People are randomly seperated into two chat rooms, 3 people in each one. Scum distrubtion is random.
* Scum have daytalk.
* Votes are tallied like how they would be in a regular game.
* The Messenger (can be town or scum) can move between the rooms at will, while anyone else must stay in their designated room.
* Whoever is lynched first can make a Vengekill. This applies to both town and mafia.
* After the first lynch, everyone is moved into one room.

[ChaosOmega]

If Mafia is lynched first, it's a guaranteed loss for them, and if Town is lynched, he vengekills someone else in his chat room. If the vengekill hits town, the third is guaranteed scum and strung up. Absolute worst case for town is 3-1 nightless with one of the three town confirmed. Although I think the concept is cool.

[Timeater]

Yeah I should change the [Guaranteed 1 in each room] rule.

Having 2 scum in one room with 1 town would be pretty funny. Is this better:

* People are randomly seperated into two chat rooms, 3 people in each one. Scum distrubtion is random.

[Timeater]

Or even make the messenger able to be scum?

[quadz08]

You'd need 5 vanillas if messenger can be scum.

[Timeater]

why

[zoraster]

Overrun

7 Town, 6 Mafia

Mafia only have night talk. Each night they

must

choose a MAFIA member to be a blood sacrifice (i.e. kill them). This is the only kill the mafia has. The goal is for the mafia to make a blood sacrifice of all but one of their members.

During the day, town lynches as normal.

Town wins if they lynch correctly

twice

before scum is completely eliminated. If it ever gets to the point where town cannot do so, the game is ended in a mafia victory (i.e. no successful lynches by D5).

Expected value for this game heavily favors town, but the fact that scum make up a huge portion of the voting power makes it hard for town to get good votes, especially in the early days where EV is highest.

The game will likely be connection heavy, even more so than White Flag.

[ChaosOmega]

So that the game still has 7 people.

[Timeater]

So that the game still has 7 people.

derp -_-

[Timeater]

Sounds like a lot of fun, Zor.

Do you think the newer version works, Chaos?

[zoraster]

Yeah. It's sort of pseudo-breakable by using some sort of random generation, but I doubt players who play it will want to do that.

[ChaosOmega]

It's definitely not as breakable. Optimal play D1 is lynch the messenger, as he is 50% to be mafia. Mafia still has a chance there, though, because of the random distribution. My inital thought is that it still favors town, but nowhere near as much as the original.