TM2012: Scummies 2011.5 - Let the credits roll!

[theamatuer]

I'll make you a deal. If we lynch Zar, I'll reread both TheAm & T-Bone overnight and make a judgment call tomorrow. I'm not promising to line up any lynches.

MoI gonna say yes, b/c zars town and hes scum

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 4, Votecount 8

Zar (2) - xRECKONERx, BBmolla
xRECKONERx (1) - DeasVail
theamatuer (1) - MagnaofIllusion
DeasVail (1) - theamatuer

Not voting (2) - Zar, T-Bone

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch or no-lynch.

Deadline:

June 23rd at 7:00 PM (EDT)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-06-23 19:00:00)

[MagnaofIllusion]

@T-Bone

- Why don't you put a vote on TheAm. I'd like to see where things go from there ...

[DeasVail]

So when you think of Reck, bright colours, sparkling lights, and a guy who looks just a little too happy may come to mind.

Perhaps something like this.



BUT, it has been decided by the Almighty Lumberjacks that he is not the bastion of oblivious innocence that he appears to be, and the vote on him now has the Lumberjacks' seal of approval.

Spoiler:

Er... couldn't find the real one, so this will just have to do instead.

Why you should all vote Reck: (Mostly from DV + Slandaar)

Interactions with Ajax:

104 is a weak stance. He subtly puts down Quil's case and says he doesn't agree with it, but I'd expect him here to either be more forceful regarding his disbelief in Ajax-town or try harder to better understand the case against him. His question is also strange because it's the kind that just makes things easier for scum, while being very unlikely to improve Reck's read on Ajax.

234: Again, his lack of attention to Ajax is wrong. He hasn't decided whether it's inexperience or scum and makes no effort to decide and influence the town, despite Ajax being a major wagon. As town, you want to know whether you agree with the major wagon or not, which is why that and also him saying that people can hammer without him catching up is also wrong. To do otherwise would be awkward for scum because it comes across as delaying their partner's lynch, but as town, with the time that we had, I would have expected Reck to at least prefer that he can catch up and clarify his read on Ajax before him getting lynched.

Reck's behaviour regarding mislynches:

In 423 (beginning of Day 2) He jumps to the "theam must be a counterwagon" train of thought (which we now know was not a good one), and conveniently uses this to push KK and Magua, who also would have been the most likely lynches for the day, but despite liking to bus himself, does not believe that Ajax was in fact bussed, despite being a wagon from very early on Day 1. It also seems like fake scumhunting because of the way he is no longer pushing Zar as scum. Overall, we feel that this allowed scum to secure mislynches and then be able to have theam as possible scum too after the townflips.

With KK, he shows no attempt to actually work out if he's scum or not, despite there being some resistance to the lynch. He shoots down what I say with "lulz wouldn't scum do better, DV is dumb". This occurs despite him thinking that he would do better as scum and despite his answer that there is a difference between general meta and specific meta, it still doesn't make sense that he would attack my post in such a way.

Reck's Zar read/s:

234: He says he'll come up with a case on Zar, who he calls the scummiest player in the game, but he doesn't. This is not what we find scummy, but what we do find scummy is that he never provides much reason at all for Zar to be scum until recently, and I think it's weird that he'd rely on a case to get reasoning on Zar across rather than just a sentence or two if he didn't have much time, especially with Zar being his strongest scumread.

Slandaar also thinks that 521 is incriminating for calling Zar town for making a condemning case on a townie. I think it's very unnatural considering Zar was a scumread and Reck should know that there's nothing preventing scum from making a case, and even if there was a good reason, there would be more doubt and not a definitive statement. (It's not even something necessary for him to say except to display "town" thought processes)

Day 3 he apparently has Zar as his strongest scumread, but doesn't try to get a lynch on him, even using the fact that he's not going to get a Zar lynch as an excuse to hammer KK, when he actually didn't try to whatsoever, and I doubt it would have been very hard, even to just post a sentence or two of reasoning.

857 he says Zar has done no scumhunting (despite having called Zar town for a reason earlier). Also, he thinks it's scummy to include oneself in analysis and also thinks it's scummy not to, using both against Zar. The latter is worse, but this shows that he's just looking to incriminate where he can and not considering things properly.

His play Day 4:

It has generally been lacklustre until 964, which I think comes after my vote. Him constantly saying I'm dumb just seems exaggerated, and like a way of looking like town while going along with popular opinion.

Things which we're not sure about, but may indicate Reck-scum:

His first post of the game is asking who Captain Ajax is. I actually think it's likely he would have known, and it could be a way of trying to distance from him, but he could not have known.

Now, this is something interesting that Slandaar thought of:

From Slandaar's Almost Normal TM Game Fate says that Slandaar should listen to me, since I apparently have a competent head on my shoulders. The only experience I had with Fate before TM was playing as part of a hydra in Destiny Mafia (which he modded). My reads were

ok

in the hydra QT (which Fate had access too) but they weren't great and my actual play wasn't very good either. Slandaar thinks that it could have been because I made 71 1-2 days earlier, where I call Reck scum and vote for Ajax and that it was a slip of sorts made by town-Fate under pressure from Slandaar. This is also aided by Slandaar's belief that Fate didn't actually think Slan was a bad player.

My opinion on the above is that it's possible, but I'm not sure. Still, I think it's something that could add to the likelihood of Reck-scum.

[DeasVail]

BBmolla:

How do

you

think I've been particularly dumb/stupid/retarded this game?

[xRECKONERx]

Goddddd do I really have a wall to respond to

Not happening tonight due to magic/board games/beer. Unless I get buzzed and wanna argue

[T-Bone]

I'm okay with that...how it makes a difference for your visuals I have no idea, but whatever.

Vote: Theam

Need to read up on this past page though.

[DeasVail]

I'm okay with that...how it makes a difference for your visuals I have no idea, but whatever.

Vote: Theam

Need to read up on this past page though.

You're voting for the wrong person.

[T-Bone]

I'm not voting for Zar. I don't see him as scum.

[T-Bone]

Sorry, got you confused with Reck for a moment. Same thing, not voting for him either. I already decided which players I'm voting and not voting.

[DeasVail]

What has contributed to your Reck read?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Deas

– I see your case. I’ll do a better re-read later. That said – who is Reck’s partner if he is scum?

--

Which leaves me with TheAm, Zar, and T-Bone. I'm pretty sure Zar is scum, which means one of the other two is the buddy, here. I'm just way more sure on Zar than I am willing to turn around and do this whole coin flip business, because even the 50/50 chance relies on me being right about Zar and right about all of my town reads.

Well we are at an impasse here then. I feel that the scum-teams of TheAm/Zar or TheAm/Deas can work and would rather take out TheAm today for the same reasons.

T-Bone isn’t scum.

--

You lynched KK because he didn't have enough basis behind voting me, and now your giving out his points as your points. Theres really something wrong here.

I lynched KK based on his ignoring of Ajax and his push on you. I know you are a VI so I consider a strong push on you from a strong player a possible scum-tell. Yet we’ve now seen that you were not a scum-driven counter-wagon to Ajax (KK and Magua were strong pushers).

Do you consider it scummy to re-evaluate reads based on new information? Especially since KK was indeed Town.

@310: I already told you my reasons behind asking Ajax.

Yes. That really doesn’t mean I can’t think you are scum lying to me about your motivations regarding Confirmed Scum.

470: The idea was you scum. I hinted at this multiple times in thread and the judging QTs in fact.

So the only reason you publicly state this is that I vote for you? Ok, noted.

@fonz. I'd also like to note that Fonz was the ONLY person that remotely suspected you. And guess what. He died.

He also suspected both you and Deas. But his mild suspicion (which pretty much evaporated when he was Ajax was scum as demonstrated in Post 345 of me is the reason he died? Lulz.

MoI gonna say yes, b/c zars town and hes scum

So you will not be voting Zar today regardless of the wagon on you, right …

[DeasVail]

@Deas – I see your case. I’ll do a better re-read later. That said – who is Reck’s partner if he is scum?

I don't know.

[Zar]

I'll Be Back

[DeasVail]

MoI: Thoughts on Molla?

[BBmolla]

I'm almost sure DV is town at this point.

It's theam/Zar.

[xRECKONERx]

@DV-

Regarding my interactions with Ajax:

They were sporadic and weak considering I didn't post much at all Day 1, and I never got around to fully committing to my reread because of all the horse shit going on with my family in real life at that moment. I know real life defenses are generally frowned upon, but given all the shit I was going through, I'm surprised I was even able to post as much as I did. I even PMed Faraday/Mina during that time and asked if I could have one of my other teammates temporarily replace me during that time, and they said no.

Regarding my mislynch behavior:

When there's a D1 scum lynch with a competing wagon, I generally assume it's a counterwagon. The logic may be flimsy, but I'm playing probabilities, here. And how is me saying "wouldn't scum do better" at odds with me saying "I would do better as scum"? This second paragraph makes no sense, unless I'm just not understanding the use of the word "despite" here. You're saying "Reck said scum would do better, despite him thinking that as scum he would do better". There's no dissonance there, if that's what you're saying, or maybe you just formatted your phrasing wrong.

Regarding my Zar reads:

I pointed out my individual problems with Zar earlier on in passing. I've commented on his play several times. While I didn't go HERE'S A GIANT WALLPOST, I made my views on him known. Calling someone town for making a logically sound case on someone I thought was scummy obviously looks bad in hindsight, but everything looks different in hindsight than at the time. Nobody else seemed interested in a Zar lynch on D3, and I really didn't have the fucking willpower or energy to fight it. I wasn't going to stick my neck out there to defend KK when I wasn't even sure of his towniness, because if KK had flipped scum now I'd have people going LOOK AT RECK TRYING TO PUSH A LYNCH ON ZAR INSTEAD OF SCUM LET'S KILL HIM. Either way, you could manipulate my play on D3 to look bad, no matter if I had gone after Zar hard and derailed KK, or stayed with KK like I did.

I never said Zar has done NO scumhunting, by the way, but I like the GIANT FUCKING MISREP you pulled there. What that post actually says, though, is that if you can show me any number of posts where he's done any genuine/useful scumhunting, I can show you plenty more posts where all he has done is IIOA. But nice try.

Regarding my play Day 4:

You call my play up until 964 lackluster, but I spent the entire day engaged in argument/debate with you about stuff. Just because you find my debate lackluster doesn't mean there isn't anything valuable to found there. Furthermore, the trigger for me posting 964 was not your vote. Your vote on me came over ten posts before that, and I posted after What prompted that post, actually, was MoI's questions to me... something you

conveniently

ignore in your case on me to try and make it look like your vote pressured me into posting that wall of reads.

And I'm saying your dumb... because I think you're being quite pants-on-head this game. I haven't just called you dumb, though... that's a gross mischaracterization of my play. I've humored you by responding to questions I've found inane, I've engaged in extensive debate with you about my reads and your reads... I've given you the time of day. So please stop selling me short, here, because that's exactly what you're doing when you try to lump my ENTIRE play on D4 into "he was pressured from my vote on him" or "he has just said that I'm dumb over and over".

Regarding the rest of your shit:

No, I didn't know who Ajax is. At all. Please show me how I would've known who he was? Trojan Horse hasn't been around for like 2-3 years that I know of, so he wouldn't have even been in the first ten or fifteen people I guessed.

And... are you really insinuating that in another Team Mafia game, Fate stated to your teammate that you were going in the right direction attacking me? My god, that's so BEYOND retarded and assuming Fate is like vezokpiraka levels of stupid. I'll ask him what he meant by that in the QT, but I wouldn't expect a response. The SDC QT has been a ghost town ever since the others either died or their games ended.

IN SUMMARY:

I didn't interact heavily with Ajax (or anyone else for that matter) on Day 1 because I was consumed by some real life bullshit that even lead to me PMing the mods and asking if one of my teammates could replace me for a while.

I played the odds and assumed that if there's a scum lynch D1 with a competing wagon, the competing wagon is probably town. That's not scummy, that's using the best data available to make an educated guess based on VCA.

I have made comments throughout the entire game when Zar has done something scummy, I haven't just gone "he's scummy" with no reason. I didn't hard push Zar D3 because I didn't have any strong feeling about KK being town, so it wasn't worth sticking my neck out there for someone who had a good chance of being scum. And you completely misrepresented my post when you claimed I said "Zar has done no scumhunting".

Finally, your characterization of my play has been grossly exaggerated and borderline

lying

. I have done my best to engage you in conversation. My wall of reads was due to MoI questioning me, which I made clear in response to his post, not your vote on me. And I've done far more than call you 'dumb' -- I've debated you, humored you with trains of thought, etc. But all you did was boil it down to "he called me dumb" and "his play is lackluster".

[DeasVail]

Note that Reck has not put much effort into scumhunting this game. This day it's almost like he's been waiting for MoI to do something. HOWEVER, when someone like me (who no one is likely to listen to) makes a post explaining why my team thinks he is scum, he makes a big post quite extensively attempting to counter my case. As the apathetic town he supposedly is, would he really bother to make such a large post. I personally wouldn't. My response to MoI is an example and I think my motivation this game is a lot stronger than that of hypothetical town-Reck. BUT, scum love to counter cases against them when they think they can and are eager to neatly defend themselves.

Clarifications:

-You didn't say "wouldn't scum do better", you were telling me I was horrible for suggesting it. That is the point I was trying to make there- "Reck said I was horrible for suggesting that KK would actually try to be more pro-town and deflect suspicion as scum, despite his own play this game."
-I don't get how it could have been such a fight to just vote for Zar, summarise why you thought he was scummy, and see how things went from there.
-That post pretty clearly implies you thought Zar had done no scumhunting. What you say you said isn't what you said at all.
-I'm not claiming that my vote definitely had something to do with you posting reads, but it could possibly have, and before that you were just posting, not actually doing much scumhunting.
-The last two points: The first is something I just wanted to get out there (since I knew from following the TM MD thread). The second was something Slandaar was thinking of. Both are things I think could

maybe

apply, so that's why I posted them

[xRECKONERx]

#1) Don't make a case on me then expect me not to respond... then when I

do

respond, try to say I'm scummy for responding.

#2) Thank you for clarifying. However, you'll realize that I never once used "I would try harder" as a reason why I'm not scum. I was asked/prompted if I thought I'd try harder as scum, and I responded.

#3) Then keep on "not getting it", I've explained why.

#4) Read the post. Read the last line. It was insinuating that I could outweight any "genuine" scumhunting he had done with the amount of bullshit/IIOA he had done. It's right fucking there in the post. You can say it "implies" whatever, but facts don't lie.

#5) Fine.

#6) Okay, sure. But you still threw them out there as reasons to consider me scum.

[DeasVail]

#1) Don't make a case on me then expect me not to respond... then when I do respond, try to say I'm scummy for responding.

You're not scummy for responding, you're scummy for the way you responded.

[xRECKONERx]

No. Your whole point was that I "ignored" the rest of the game and only contributed once I responded to your case.

[xRECKONERx]

Note that Reck has not put much effort into scumhunting this game. This day it's almost like he's been waiting for MoI to do something. HOWEVER, when someone like me (who no one is likely to listen to) makes a post explaining why my team thinks he is scum, he makes a big post quite extensively attempting to counter my case. As the apathetic town he supposedly is, would he really bother to make such a large post. I personally wouldn't. My response to MoI is an example and I think my motivation this game is a lot stronger than that of hypothetical town-Reck. BUT, scum love to counter cases against them when they think they can and are eager to neatly defend themselves.

this pretty much contradicts exactly what you said, fyi

[DeasVail]

Note that Reck has not put much effort into scumhunting this game. This day it's almost like he's been waiting for MoI to do something. HOWEVER, when someone like me (who no one is likely to listen to) makes a post explaining why my team thinks he is scum, he makes a

big post quite extensively

attempting to counter my case. As the apathetic town he supposedly is, would he really bother to make

such a large post.

I personally wouldn't.

My response to MoI is an example

and I think my motivation this game is a lot stronger than that of hypothetical town-Reck. BUT, scum love to counter cases against them when they think they can and are eager to neatly defend themselves.

Note the bold.

[xRECKONERx]

So if I had made a two-sentence response to your case this would all be moot.

[DeasVail]

So if I had made a two-sentence response to your case this would all be moot.

Only the part about me finding your response suspicious, but yes.