Mini 1327: Murder in the Louvre- Day 6

[shos]

also, just checkin if anyone missed it, my vote was L-1.

[Yosarian2]

I reread Furcolow and two major things stood out:

1.

I'm a Detective.

Zar is a Tracker. Don't hammer.

Yes, Furcolow seemed like an idiot but holy shit is this just plain claiming scum. Have to ask

why

these words were chosen here:

• No daytalk - this was my original assumption. Furcthing is communicating N1 information to his buddy. If we close the book there,
  we never wonder who Furc could be communicating with OUTSIDE of his scumteam.
  
  
  
• "Zar is a tracker. Don't hammer." - this sounds very much like a barter-plea for life, posed to either a third party or (
  more likely
  ) a second scum team. Maybe this was also a test for
  Zar's
  alignment. Furc and his buddy could have decided to out the tracker on the way down - if Zar took shots from a second scum team/SK, then Furc's team would absolutely know Zar is town.
  
  A corollary: Zar living would imply he's aligned with bullet-shooters, especially after protective roles are dead. (There is one claimed protective role alive: Magua -> Charter N2, 2 kills; Magua -> Zar N3, 0 kills)
  
  Basically I'm reading this as either "I know Zar is
  your tracker
  . Don't hammer."
  OR
  "Zar is a town tracker. Don't hammer and we can work together today." Either way, this line was NOT addressed to town players and I don't think it's clumsy enough to be in-thread communication with his buddy.
  
  
• Multiball
  - they must know about each other by now. The non-Furcolow team would definitely know. The Furc-team would probably suspect an SK for awhile, unless both teams were informed of a multiball in role PMs or by flavor we've glossed over.

It feels like you're reading WAY too much into this.

Assume he's a scum rolecop who is about to get lynched. His goals are 1: to come up with some kind of claim that might prevent his lynch; 2: to confirm that claim to make it stronger; and 3: to tell his buddies about his result.

When a person is in trouble, it's incredibly common for them to claim part of their own role, especially if they can confirm it. As Jeep once said, on some level everyone really wants to tell you what their role is.

Or, perhaps you're right and he was the scum roleblocker and his buddy was the scum rolecop. It still makes sense to claim rolecop if he can confirm that role using his buddy's information. It's not like rolecops are always scum, even if newbie-game-meta-leakage is starting to make that more common.

Multiball seems pretty doubtful at this point, and really nothing you've said in that post makes me think otherwise. It really just sounds like you're chasing your tail here, and reading way to much into incredibly fuzzy things.

There's also the possibility of a 3 man scum team+SK. I don't think is as absurd as Yos says it is, especially with the duplicate town protective roles.

Someone call me crazy.

When it comes to balancing a game, I usually consider a survivor to be a scum role in terms of numbers, because it basically is. 3 scum + Sk + Survivor or 2 scum + 2 scum + survivor would be a *lot* of scum; 5 scum in a 13 player game is kind of crazy, it basically means town has to lynch right every night and then it still can lose. (Bulletproof survivor is even less likely, since it reduce the chance of crosskills in a setup where town badly needs them). And, yeah, we have a lot of protective roles, but the info roles seem pretty limited.

(shrug) By himself, I actually do agree charter looks kind of iffy here. It's just the track that's making me think that him being scum is fairly unlikely.

[Magua]

@Zar:

Kindly confirm that shos sent you a message separate from the vision that you received.

Also, @Zar:

Kindly ask springlullaby via PM what you will flip as, as per my hypothesis in 1939.

---------------------------

Charter.

The problem with attacking charter is that Zar's report confirms he's not SK and not lone mafia. If he's scum, he has to have a partner.

Nuwen is wrong about Furcolow being an ascetic, and it hurts my head. The theory is that "Well, Furcolow is not a charmer like has been used in other games," and instead of going to the brain-dead obvious conclusion of "He's a rolecop," because of the information he outted, this somehow turns into "He's an ascetic, and thus charter is lying," and I'm all "wtf."

*Either Zar is scum with Furcolow, OR scum have a Role Cop.
*No Role Cop has been claimed, and no one has claimed a true Vanilla role. Therefore, the Role Cop is fakeclaiming. Therefore, their role must be unprovable.

Or Furcolow was the rolecop, OH SNAP.

Not if that neutral party is a bulletproof survivor. That's actually a REALLY elegant balancing mechanic for a multiball game in a mini. 2-2-1-8 prevents the survivor from becoming a kingmaker in EVERY possible endgame scenario.

I'm sorry, but what the fuck? Making a survivor bulletproof *guarantees* that they'll be kingmaker in every endgame scenario!

Kindly explain your thought process.

MAGUA CLAIM FULLY goddammit <_>

No. Simple as that. I'm a protective role. If you don't understand, I can't help you.

-----

Vi's vote on charter is the most opportunistic thing I've seen in this entire game.

@shos:

Please tell me, in like two sentences, why you're voting charter.

[shos]

MAGUA CLAIM FULLY goddammit <_>

No. Simple as that. I'm a protective role. If you don't understand, I can't help you.

@shos:

Please tell me, in like two sentences, why you're voting charter.

No. Simple as that. I'm voting charter. If you don't understand why, I can't help you.

[Magua]

Yeah, you smarmy git, the difference is, I *have* claimed, and the details that I haven't claimed are because claiming them

doesn't help the town

but

helps the scum

.

The thing is, half the reason Nuwen, at least, is voting charter is because of his picture image name (1947), whereas you know that the mod provides pictures on demand (1949). You vote charter in spite of this.

Now, I realize the irony of arguing with you here -- if you're really a survivor, you don't care diddly squat who gets lynched (though I thank you for absorbing at least one kill). I'm just laboring under the assumption that you actually want town to win for some reason. So:

Why are you voting charter-who-was-tracked-by-Zar? You can say, "Lulz, I'm a survivor and I don't care," and I'd understand. But as long as you're actually trying to help the town, here...

@VI long post:
Rambrandt watching you?? AND YOU DIDNT SAY SO?!?!?!?!? MADAME RECAMIER WAS WATCHING THAT DUDE IN THE STARTING SCENE.

This is the sort of reason that I would've expected town-Vi to claim what happened when he claimed his action. Given all the rest of the flavor so far, this could've been a clue to a Rembrandt role in the game being town, or similar, but Vi not only doesn't mention it when he claims, he never mentions it at all. It doesn't fit.

[Magua]

just wandering: How comes the name of your picture is

270906_monalisa.jpg

while the others are

meteor_pew_pew.jpg
antinous.jpg
francoise.jpg
astrid.jpg

??

a google images of that provides this as the first result:
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/files/ima ... nalisa.jpg

mhm.

This is a really, really, really, really fucking weird post from someone who knows that the mod will give out fakeclaim images.

[Zar]

@Magua:

I received a message from the spring on Jun the 10th around 7:00 am according to the timestamp. For those with different timezones to mine, it's about 4 hours from this post, which is when I was able to check while V/LA.

Quick fly by, posting from my phone from the middle of nowhere.

[Yosarian2]

Um, shos, that's funny and all, but answer the damn question.

[Zar]

As you can see whenever we started talking about pictures, I said that there was no rule forbidding it, and later mod confirmed. The mod, at start game, noticed that he indeed did not enforce a rule about the pictures, so she messaged me a few pictures of the kind,

if I should want to fakeclaim a human

. she also noted that I should upload it to the site just like she does to all the pictures. she just said that she does that because she likes to fuck with people who want to break setups or something; that is from memory, I'm not quoting the mod.

VOTE: Charter

Why would you want to fake-claim human?

[shos]

In case you did not read: the mod sent me pictures so that I can *REUPLOAD* them in the manner that she did, so that I can fake a claim in need. I have no idea why I would want to fake claim human, but then again, all that happened before I knew there were other characters which aren't human.

also, the fact that the mod sent such a thing to me does not mean he sent one to everyone. I'm independent - I thought I would be the only one getting such a message. did anyone else get one?

will continue in a few minutes

[Vi]

*Either Zar is scum with Furcolow, OR scum have a Role Cop.
*No Role Cop has been claimed, and no one has claimed a true Vanilla role. Therefore, the Role Cop is fakeclaiming. Therefore, their role must be unprovable.

Or Furcolow was the rolecop, OH SNAP.

Right, that sounds just like a "charmer".

Turning down the notion of Furcolow being action-immune, okay sure, but how do you claim to know that he was a Role Cop?

Not if that neutral party is a bulletproof survivor. That's actually a REALLY elegant balancing mechanic for a multiball game in a mini. 2-2-1-8 prevents the survivor from becoming a kingmaker in EVERY possible endgame scenario.

I'm sorry, but what the fuck? Making a survivor bulletproof *guarantees* that they'll be kingmaker in every endgame scenario!

This is correct though. I'm getting progressively bothered by this.

Vi's vote on charter is the most opportunistic thing I've seen in this entire game.

Well you've already admitted you haven't read much of it.

I'm sure there's a good explanation for this.

See also this.

The picture claim from Charter is obviously a fake.

Regardless of what one believes about shos, I don't see a reason not to take his word for it.

This is the sort of reason that I would've expected town-Vi to claim what happened when he claimed his action. Given all the rest of the flavor so far, this could've been a clue to a Rembrandt role in the game being town, or similar, but Vi not only doesn't mention it when he claims, he never mentions it at all. It doesn't fit.

Because. It. Says. Nothing.

Futile: This argument is it. Just--what the duck, you honey-and-garlic-swilling food thief.

And why have you abandoned my point about charter (dropping Nuwen atm) being in your blind spot?

[shos]

A better question, I guess: Zar, results clearing anyone please?

charter moved from the the 1st Fl. of Denon to the ground floor of the Sully portion. The wording of the result also indicates that I noticed there are windows there that open onto a courtyard.

According to the Louvre map in UberNinja's death scene, La Joconde is located in Denon.

Also, the wording of the newspaper image attached to the morning scene indicates the corpses where found in the sous-sol du musée, which translates as "in the basement of the museum".

I guess this means charter isn't responsible for either of these deaths.

This is the report.
so...what's the problem with it?

[Magua]

also, the fact that the mod sent such a thing to me does not mean he sent one to everyone. I'm independent - I thought I would be the only one getting such a message. did anyone else get one?

If you got one, scum got them. Guaranteed.

This is the report.
so...what's the problem with it?

It means that charter didn't kill anyone N2.

Right, that sounds just like a "charmer".

Turning down the notion of Furcolow being action-immune, okay sure, but how do you claim to know that he was a Role Cop?

Yet you're willing to go along with "Charmer? Oh, you mean ascetic?" Jesus. Give me a break. Charmer could just as easily mean rolecop as anything else: "Every Night you may talk to someone; you'll be so charming and persuasive that they'll tell you all about themselves..." Etc.

Furcolow outted a report. Furcolow's the rolecop. Occam's razor.

Why is Furcolow the rolecop?

I'm a Detective. Zar is a Tracker. Don't hammer.

That's why.

And why have you abandoned my point about charter (dropping Nuwen atm) being in your blind spot?

Charter is not in my blind spot. Charter is the second most likely person to be scum, after you. But I'm waaaaaaaay more into lynching you.

Four reasons:
- Zar's report.
- Charter's too scummy to be scum.
- I don't like your role.
- I don't like your play.

Nuwen's in my blindspot because her claim has bedazzled me.

[springlullaby]

Day 4 votecount 4

(0) Zar:

(0) Yosarian2:

(0) Nuwen :

(0) Magua:

(3) charter:

Nuwen, Vi, shos,

(1) shos:

(1) Vi:

Magua,

(3) Not voting :

Zar, Yosarian2, charter ,

With 7 players, 4 votes are required to lynch.

Deadline reminder: the deadline is set to

Friday June the 22th.

Countdown:

(expired on 2012-06-22 12:00:00)

[shos]

so what. he doesn't have partners?

[Vi]

Right, that sounds just like a "charmer".

Turning down the notion of Furcolow being action-immune, okay sure, but how do you claim to know that he was a Role Cop?

Yet you're willing to go along with "Charmer? Oh, you mean ascetic?" Jesus. Give me a break.

+1 Jesus point, but, um, no?

*Furcolow was a "Mafia Charmer". Via springlullaby's acknowledgment "charmer" is supposed to be representative of Furcolow's actual role.
**Which does not remotely resemble a Flavor Cop role.
**It does not necessarily make him action-immune.

This was in that post you didn't read because it was easier to call my charter vote "opportunistic".

Charmer could just as easily mean rolecop as anything else: "Every Night you may talk to someone; you'll be so charming and persuasive that they'll tell you all about themselves..." Etc.

And yet this is as persuasive as the action-immunity interpretation.

I acknowledge Ockham's Razor as a reason to keep the line of thought that Furcolow was a Role Cop out, but then we get into the notion of Dueling Role Cops with Furcolow and charter.

Not to mention that charter hasn't bothered to post since all this started.

And why have you abandoned my point about charter (dropping Nuwen atm) being in your blind spot?

Charter is not in my blind spot. Charter is the second most likely person to be scum, after you. But I'm waaaaaaaay more into lynching you.

Four reasons:
- Zar's report.
- Charter's too scummy to be scum.
- I don't like your role.
- I don't like your play.

Nuwen's in my blindspot because her claim has bedazzled me.

*Zar's report is useless if charter is groupscum.
*Not even.
*I've done the best I can with my role in a game where I came in with no knowledge of the flavor. I can't do more.
*I wonder when that was decided.
*Nuwen's claim is rubbish. Her theorypost is much more bedazzling.

Duck, cooked, honey, garlic, do want, can't have.

[Zar]

@Magua: I asked spring about the flip but the answer was evasive.

[Magua]

Ok, Vi/shos, who is charter's partner?

Already sort of know what Vi's going to say, but maybe he'll surprise me. Curious what shos will say.

@Magua: I asked spring about the flip but the answer was evasive.

Yeah. The role names in the flips aren't indicative of much. None of them match up with actual mechanical role names, yet Vi/Nuwen are all, "Furcolow can't be a rolecop because 'charmer'"

[Nuwen]

It feels like you're reading WAY too much into this.

Assume he's a scum rolecop who is about to get lynched. His goals are 1: to come up with some kind of claim that might prevent his lynch; 2: to confirm that claim to make it stronger; and 3: to tell his buddies about his result.

When a person is in trouble, it's incredibly common for them to claim part of their own role, especially if they can confirm it. As Jeep once said, on some level everyone really wants to tell you what their role is.

How, exactly, does a rolecop save himself by claiming his exact role and outing another power? Rolecop is a scum claim. I know it, you know it, the American people know it. Zar wasn't even voting for Furthing at the point when he claimed; if Furc were scum desperately trying to avoid being lynched with a claim, he outed the role of someone who

wasn't voting for him yet

. I would throw a hammer on principle in that situation and expect most players would do the same.

No, I don't think that claim was meant to save Furthing - he barely resisted his own lynch after claiming out. I think the claim was intended to save his buddy and make the game easier for Charter by directing the other shooter(s) @ Zar.

Or, perhaps you're right and he was the scum roleblocker and his buddy was the scum rolecop. It still makes sense to claim rolecop if he can confirm that role using his buddy's information.

Right, that's what I'm saying - Furthing's buddy is the rolecop. Do you see any claims that might belong to a fakeclaiming rolecop? I do! Charter's only contributions to this game are "confirming" other players by verifying their flavor information. He's coasting, as expected.

~~~

I don't think there is BOTH AN SK

AND

TWO SCUM TEAMS, OR AN SK

AND

A SURVIVOR.

I THINK THE SURVIVOR CLAIM FEELS PRETTY LEGIT, ALTHOUGH THE THING ABOUT FAKECLAIM PICTURES IS GIVING ME A LOT OF PAUSE.

The possibilities I see are:
multiball 2-2-1-8 (survivor)
SK 3-1-9 (Shos = SK)
2-1-10 (Shos = SK)

I think Shos is what he says he is until I see a good reason to believe otherwise. The fakeclaim picture PM thing gives me pause, but not enough to remove my vote from abso-scum.

~~~

It's just a strange coincidence that Zar targeted the CHARMER and got no result N1 while the "flavorcop" supposedly did. If you're assuming SK/scum or just a single scum team, please tell me why that scum team would opt to rolecop AND singe-target block Zar on the same night instead of RBing elsewhere to catch as many powers as possible. This is the only way to explain TownZar's no-result; no town have claimed to have a roleblock. We know Magua isn't a jailkeeper and his slot didn't target N1 to boot. Hence, Charter probably didn't target Furthing and is probably claiming a result to create distance between himself and that role slot.

And now it lurks. Hammer of righteousness plz.

[Magua]

I'm still curious about shos' objection to the picture that charter claimed.

Be a little less snarky and explain to me like I'm stupid how this works and why it's so damning: You were given a picture with your role. The mod then, unprompted, gave you additional pictures you could upload yourself? Were these links, like the cosmo one you gave for the Mona Lisa, or what? Were they already uploaded to postimage, or did the mod say you had to do that yourself? Do you think the image charter used was provided by the mod? Was other fakeclaim information provided (names, mechanics), or was it just the pictures? What date did you receive this message on?

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeee-sus Christ, this game.

[Magua]

No, I don't think that claim was meant to save Furthing - he barely resisted his own lynch after claiming out. I think the claim was intended to save his buddy and make the game easier for Charter by directing the other shooter(s) @ Zar.

Furcolow did this D2. The only evidence of another shooter at the time was Yos' claim on Elmo.
Further, for your Furcolow+charter theory to work, you have to account for Zar's report -- meaning there has to be a third scum member who could've made the kill N2.

So you have Furcolow + charter + ???, who are convinced enough that there's a second killer out there despite there being no second kill yet that they're willing to get one of themselves lynched in order to out that information? It doesn't even make sense -- even if everything up until that point was actually true, they'd be better off shooting Zar themselves and hoping that they didn't bite a bullet in return than to do something that *guarantees* one of them is lynched in the hopes that someone else would shoot Zar (and *that's* even ignoring the fact that if they had a kill fail N1, they'd probably assume Doctor, so that outting like that would make it *more* likely for Zar to be doc-protected....)

The possibilities I see are:
multiball 2-2-1-8 (survivor)
SK 3-1-9 (Shos = SK)
2-1-10 (Shos = SK)

You cannot believe charter+Furcolow 2 man scumteam. Zar's report defies you.
If there's an SK, where are the kills N1 and N3?

It's just a strange coincidence that Zar targeted the CHARMER and got no result N1 while the "flavorcop" supposedly did. If you're assuming SK/scum or just a single scum team, please tell me why that scum team would opt to rolecop AND singe-target block Zar on the same night instead of RBing elsewhere to catch as many powers as possible. This is the only way to explain TownZar's no-result; no town have claimed to have a roleblock. We know Magua isn't a jailkeeper and his slot didn't target N1 to boot. Hence, Charter probably didn't target Furthing and is probably claiming a result to create distance between himself and that role slot.

I can't explain Zar's N1 failure at this point -- I do agree that it doesn't make sense for the scumteam to roleblock and rolecop the same person N1. But your entire theory rests on an assumption that is, to be polite, way out there, but you go out of your way to ignore the other evidence that is more confirmed.

[Magua]

PPS: Nuwen, if this Day ends without you having asked your five questions and posted answers in thread, I will auto-policy-vote you for the rest of the game.

Just an FYI.

[shos]

I'm still curious about shos' objection to the picture that charter claimed.

Be a little less snarky and explain to me like I'm stupid how this works and why it's so damning: You were given a picture with your role. The mod then, unprompted, gave you additional pictures you could upload yourself? Were these links, like the cosmo one you gave for the Mona Lisa, or what? Were they already uploaded to postimage, or did the mod say you had to do that yourself? Do you think the image charter used was provided by the mod? Was other fakeclaim information provided (names, mechanics), or was it just the pictures? What date did you receive this message on?

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeee-sus Christ, this game.

I got a role pm. then a while after, still before/after the start of day 1, I recieved another pm, which gave me four pictures, and said that in case I want to use them, I should upload them to that site like he does. that's it. they were uploaded already to postimage, with the name image.jpg


gotta go..

[Magua]

I should upload them to that site like he does. that's it. they were uploaded already to postimage

Confusion. These sentences seem to be in conflict with each other.

Jumping back: you think the Mona Lisa pic is fake because of the name 270906_monalisa.jpg, yes?

But your picture (meteor_pew_pew.jpg) is obviously taken from http://www.geekologie.com/2008/12/01/meteor-pew-pew.jpg. I'm seriously not getting why you're hung up on this.

[Yosarian2]

Nuwen is just confusing the hell out of me here.

The possibilities I see are:
multiball 2-2-1-8 (survivor)
SK 3-1-9 (Shos = SK)
2-1-10 (Shos = SK)

Out of those 3 possibilities, the only one where charter could even possibly be scum is the second one. So the only possible way charter could be scum, in your mind, is if shos is the SK; and shos could be the SK in a number of situations where charter isn't scum.

So...why aren't you voting shos?