Open 418 - Friends and Fun Times at the Fair (Game Over)

[Potack-ruv]

Oh wow, that sounded like you just stopped comitting to half your read on me. Where has the confidence in me being scum gone? You did confim vote me you know.

Properly means that he explains it in detail and uses facts, instead of just making up bullshit and giving a few lines.

It's still strawmanning no matter which one it is. You're still including the words "every time". Those words are generally used in strawmanning phrases. As I said, you should have calrified when specifically he was going to do that instead.

Also I expect you to explain that specific answer after Gunny answers your question.

[Soben]

The one thing I wanna know from Shotgun: why did you give out reads in #36 and then condemn Potato for doing the same thing later (I'm looking for a very specific answer here).

Shotgun gave out reads because I asked what his reads were.

Lets play a fun game though Bork, it's called take some stances on players that aren't Potack or Shotgun, in the game you tell me who you'd consider voting if neither of them were in the game alongside with why, if you want to explain and state town reads on alternate players that'd be fine too.

[borkjerfkin]

Oh wow, that sounded like you just stopped comitting to half your read on me. Where has the confidence in me being scum gone? You did confim vote me you know.

The hell? I very much think you're scum. You just responded with a point I had with "well um I'm committed to shotgun dying" which is quite true and doesn't at all invalidate what I said.

It's still strawmanning no matter which one it is. You're still including the words "every time". Those words are generally used in strawmanning phrases.

This is inductive reasoning and is fallacious. And once again, I was asking a question and by definition not misrepping or even repping at all.

Also I expect you to explain that specific answer after Gunny answers your question.

Fully intend to.

[borkjerfkin]

@Soben: read my #145.
Top scum reads: Potato, Venmar, TAM.

[Potack-ruv]

Oh wow, that sounded like you just stopped comitting to half your read on me. Where has the confidence in me being scum gone? You did confim vote me you know.

The hell? I very much think you're scum. You just responded with a point I had with "well um I'm committed to shotgun dying" which is quite true and doesn't at all invalidate what I said.

The overall feel I got from your last post was that you were horribly not committed to your scumread of me and it sounded really fake.

It's still strawmanning no matter which one it is. You're still including the words "every time". Those words are generally used in strawmanning phrases.

This is inductive reasoning and is fallacious. And once again, I was asking a question and by definition not misrepping or even repping at all.

So because you asked it as a question, everything I said is invalidated? Yeah, no. Why is it fallacious reasoning?

@Soben: read my #145.
Top scum reads: Potato, Venmar, TAM.

Make a case on all of them.

[borkjerfkin]

Why can you not read my 145 where I already did that?

So because you asked it as a question, everything I said is invalidated?

YES! There are worlds of difference between "You're saying this!" and "Are you saying this?" One is putting words in someone's mouth. I feel like this is REALLY OBVIOUS.
Inductive reasoning is fallacious because you're saying "X is generally found in Y" therefore "the existence of X implies Y".

e.g. Water vapor is found in clouds. I see water vapor, therefore I am seeing a cloud.

[Om of the Nom]

One is directly putting words in someone's mouth, the other is indirectly doing it. This is my point.
Also the general context of the words I mentioned normally point to strawmanning, and your question was no exception.

[borkjerfkin]

the other is indirectly doing it

I fundamentally disagree with this. I'm not implying he meant something, I'm clarifying whether or not he meant something. You're arguing semantics (and doing it badly) at this point, which is profoundly anti-town.

[Om of the Nom]

Why is arguing semantics anti-town?

[Soben]

I think the game would be much better of if this mini-argument between the both of you ended. Also semantic arguments aren't exactly scummy however they're anti-town because they clutter the thread up on things that are ultimately fairly minuscule or useless points.

Instead of talking about that though Om, you should try and explain and convince me of your Venmar town-read.

[RedPanda]

One thing I did notice, however small, is a potential slip of the tongue by Venmar:

"- There are probably a couple instances in games that i have ongoing, but if you want you can read Open 399, that is my latest completed game. Luckily for you

i also played as scum there

, so feel free to get some kind of a scum meta, but that was my first time playing as scum so i doubt it is as reliable."


Also? I don't think it really fits in the rest of the sentence, and could be a slip of the tongue pertaining to this game. I would like others views on this however, perhaps I am just putting the wrong emphasis on the wrong words when reading that, but it stuck out to me.

- Interesting point. I admit it phrased that kind of weirdly, but when writing that, i was thinking in the sense of ( thinking in my mind. ) -"

also, to add

"- I am not sure if that makes sense, but regarding that post i felt like the need to add on the fact that i played as scum in that game would help clear some things up, and make the read more interesting since someone could get a feel for how i play as scum. Basically, i was adding on a point to the main part of the post, and way i worded it is how i presented that. Does that make sense..?

Okay lets look at it from our POV.
it looks like a scumslip.
But yeah I'm willing to reconsider.
If you stop giving excuses for that slip
and start catching scum.
or atleast being useful to the game.

[Om of the Nom]

Gut lol.
I've been getting a townie feel from Venmar's posts. Though again, I still haven't really read them in detail.
Why don't you go and point out the scummy things he has said and then I'll see?

[Om of the Nom]

RP, are you willing to do a bork lynch?

[borkjerfkin]

I love how everyone who disagrees with you (shotgun, me, andrew) is scum.

[RedPanda]

I will not stop pushing him until you can explain this and I deem it right.

I'm not expecting you to stop.

Keep going on.

But I want something extra.

some scumhunting on other players.

because what I have is pretty convincing.

[Om of the Nom]

Generalising. That's a fallacy. You're using one point that links them all together to try and portray my reasons for suspecting you as scummy, without paying attention to the cases and reasons I've given for all of them.

I mean seriously, that was a horribly weak attack and you must be scum for doing that instead of defending yourself.

PEDIT: I already am bro. And again, you willing to do a bork wagon?

[RedPanda]

RP, are you willing to do a bork lynch?

I'm not ready for anything yet.

not until absta and chrimi start interacting with us.

[RedPanda]

Lol there's another guy mcrawford, who hasn't even posted yet

[Potack-ruv]

Only just realised I was using the wrong account lol.

One is directly putting words in someone's mouth, the other is indirectly doing it. This is my point.
Also the general context of the words I mentioned normally point to strawmanning, and your question was no exception.

Why is arguing semantics anti-town?

Gut lol.
I've been getting a townie feel from Venmar's posts. Though again, I still haven't really read them in detail.
Why don't you go and point out the scummy things he has said and then I'll see?

RP, are you willing to do a bork lynch?

Generalising. That's a fallacy. You're using one point that links them all together to try and portray my reasons for suspecting you as scummy, without paying attention to the cases and reasons I've given for all of them.

I mean seriously, that was a horribly weak attack and you must be scum for doing that instead of defending yourself.

PEDIT: I already am bro. And again, you willing to do a bork wagon?

[Soben]

Gut lol. I've been getting a townie feel from Venmar's posts. Though again, I still haven't really read them in detail. Why don't you go and point out the scummy things he has said and then I'll see?

I absolutely

hate

gut reads but that may be because my gut is wrong a lot while I find logic extremely successful.

But sure, I'll explain the scum-read on him but you'll have to ISO him yourself as well. He thus far hasn't really attempted to scumhunt, he's stated one read and one read only and that's RedPanda which is pretty much a universally accepted read. He hasn't taken a stance or commented on the debate/argument between Shotgun and yourself but rather just came and focused on defending himself my from FoS and McStabs claim of him slipping. His earlier posts before that look primarily as an attempt to seem active - he asks questions with no real follow-through. All in all his posts show no signs of scumhunting.

PEdit: Om, if I see you attempt to say "X is scum for attacking their FoS rather than defending themselves" again be warned that I'll no longer read your opinions.

[TeChNoWC]

bork, why do you feel that shotty is town? If his reaction is alignment non-indicative, what towntells does he have?

And whats so bad about TAM?

Bork, your scumreads are crap. Go read meta on Om the Nom and Venmar, I strongly suggest it. Did you even read the game Venmar provided? Does this Venmar look the same as the Venmar in 399? Not to me.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1250 so now you have the link, Soben and bork.

Venmar, link us to one of your townie games so we can cut this shit down.

[Venmar]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21755

That is my only completed game as town. This was a newbie game though, so read it however you want.

@RedPanda
- I will try and get you the reads you wanted from me, and i will do some reading / hunting.

[Soben]

I've glanced at the game already and it really doesn't change my mind; the fact that he's only played one scum game in that fashion and was lynched relatively early on due to it is likely to lead towards him changing his scum play as he'd deem it unsuccessful.

[Potack-ruv]

Really, is that all? I thought maybe Venmar had done something really scummy.

Anyway, I can't really determine anything logically from Venmar's posts because he hasn't posted much yet. I'd rather give it time before looking at him again, so for now I'll stick with my gut (my gut is great btw, Techno can verify this is true). I feel Venmar's earlier posts were more scumhunting focused, but yes, I kinda do think his later ones are more focused on defending. But I don't really see that as a scumtell yet. I know as town sometimes I don't comment on fights that dominate the page. So I'm regarding that as null.

And that time he was scum because he made a really weak attack on me instead of defending himself. Which is really scummy, because he was focused on making me look bad instead of pointing out why I look bad.

[TeChNoWC]

Om's guts are very nice and juicy, and made of lots of potatoes.

And yes, also accurate. And the fact that a lot of my own personal reads in this game overlap with his, makes me even more confident that Potack is town and on a winning streak.