Mini 1349: Words with Scum (Game over!)

vijay2vasandani · Post Post #150 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:24 am

Well okay, that's my two cents with the setup spec. I'm a fan of draft picking but yeah losing obvtown with powers might be too much a cost.

Somebody tell me when we decide but count this as a vote for my proposal. I have shocking letters X.X

As to actual scumhunting, I think I'm voting for Hoopla but I'm not sure. Reread time.

Unrelated: Hoopla, are you very smart? You sound like it.

whispersilk · Post Post #151 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:23 am

↑ AurorusVox wrote:
The point is scum will see what town has. Townpoints for not realising this though.

Of course I realised that. Who wouldn't?

Amrun · Post Post #152 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:26 am

I guess people are coming around to seeing things my way. We shoudl all just flip and then take whatever tiles.

Hoopla, re: Arugula, taking IceGuy's plan bothered me far less than apologizing for the plan as he posted it.

AurorusVox · Post Post #153 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:40 am

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
AV wrote: (i.e., if scum take a letter that is part of a scummy ability, we'll at least be tipped off a little. If they snatch and grab before seeing the letter, they have plausible deniability)

So LLD’s plan has netted her a Pro-Scum letter. What are your thoughts on that given the above?

My thoughts are she had no way of knowing she'd get the pro-scum letter and so she can't be blamed for that, but it reinforces my point that we shouldn't take before a we flip~

There's also the issue now that if scum have letter stealing capability they can snag it from LLD. Flip before you collect. Leave scummy letters on the board. I'd rather people took an invisible letter rather than a flipped scummy one.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
AV wrote: Vote: Hoopla

Didn't you "hope" LLD was scum earlier? Why then is the entrance townish?

Straight out – are you simply concocting a reason to bandwagon for bandwagonning’s sake here?

No. I think it's a contradiction. If I wanted to BW I'd have placed my vote on VM, the leading wagon at the time.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:Do you disagree with that logic?

(for reference, this is where you expounded upon taking unflipped tiles over useless ones)
I agree with the logic. There's no point in taking useless tiles as town. I think my concerns over taking unflipped tiles has lessened since I posted about forcing all players to only collect on flipped tiles.

↑ Arugula wrote:Is it that hard to accept the fact I made an honest mistake in not realizing my plan was similar to IceGuy's?
Is it that hard to accept that after having my previous plan beaten to death, I was a little wary of posting another one simply because I didn't want to come off as incompetent?

These could both still come from scum. They are not towntells.

↑ Arugula wrote:@DCL
When I posted my first plan, I didn't fully understand how the game worked, and I admit it is anti-town now. The reason for that little "qualifier" was genuinely that I was almost afraid of posting another plan because the last one was ripped apart and not good at all. I wasn't trying to put down the plan, I was just ready for backlash because of the backlash from the other one. I genuinely thought and still think my plan is pro-town.

Why did you post one then if you were "almost afraid"? Why not read the other plans carefully? Why do you have to be the ring leader?

whispersilk · Post Post #154 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:15 am

↑ Hoopla wrote:Massclaiming and/or only collecting exposed tiles turns the game into more of a logic puzzle. I don't think the benefits are substantial enough to make the game boring.

Fair enough.

↑ IceGuy wrote:
↑ Hoopla wrote:
I don't agree with this. Whispersilk has games as town that parallel his opening play so far - I remember when Mayo Clinic was an open setup, he dedicated a lot of time to structuring a winning strategy for town. I think he likes the logic puzzle aspect of the game, so I don't really think "scum trying to appear townish" is accurate. I've also seen him powerlurk quite heavily as scum, and although it's too early to tell in this game, I'm not worried.

Please re-read her ISO. Her posts have nothing to do with logic puzzling.

One of my posts does, and other than our mod (who played Mayo 2), Hoopla was probably going to be the only other person to see exactly where I was going with it, because I believe she was one of the people who altered the Mayo setup after I broke it with a winning plan, and then I think decided to scrap it completely when I promptly broke the new setup with another plan.

The plans were based on massclaiming and following strict night actions which forced scum and a SK to do what the town said, and we then used logic and deduction to catch them in two stunning, but somewhat boring victories.

I wasn't really expecting a thumbs up from everyone, because it's natural to be all like "whoa there" when faced with an idea that on the surface appears completely crazy, but sometimes I see potential flaws in a setup, and a part of me naturally wants to exploit them, even if it makes the game boring. I think this setup can be exploited to benefit the town, but as things have progressed this far, my idea is now moot and probably best saved for theory discussions.

That said,

Flip G2

Arugula · Post Post #155 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:40 am

AurorusVox wrote:

There's also the issue now that if scum have letter stealing capability
they can snag it from LLD. Flip before you collect. Leave scummy letters on the board. I'd rather people took an invisible letter rather than a flipped scummy one.

Since when can scum steal letters? When was the idea ever brought up?

Scumslip?

AurorusVox wrote:

↑ Arugula wrote:Is it that hard to accept the fact I made an honest mistake in not realizing my plan was similar to IceGuy's?
Is it that hard to accept that after having my previous plan beaten to death, I was a little wary of posting another one simply because I didn't want to come off as incompetent?

These could both still come from scum. They are not towntells.

They aren't scumtells either.

AurorusVox wrote:
↑ Arugula wrote:@DCL
When I posted my first plan, I didn't fully understand how the game worked, and I admit it is anti-town now. The reason for that little "qualifier" was genuinely that I was almost afraid of posting another plan because the last one was ripped apart and not good at all. I wasn't trying to put down the plan, I was just ready for backlash because of the backlash from the other one. I genuinely thought and still think my plan is pro-town.

Why did you post one then if you were "almost afraid"? Why not read the other plans carefully? Why do you have to be the ring leader?

I posted it because I wanted to contribute and I thought my plan was good.
I did read the other ones carefully, I just lost track of how IceGuy's was so similar.
I don't have to be the ringleader, and clearly I am not. When did I ever say that I had to be the ringleader?

AurorusVox · Post Post #156 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:47 am

↑ Quilford wrote:Letter Steal = LS [(A)
LS
: Target a player to steal the tiles they possess at the end of the Night. If two or more players target the same player with this ability, the action fails.]

Try harder.

You'd have been better to claim carelessness rather than saying you read it carefully and missed it~

And obv you wanna be a ringleader, or else you wouldn't mind following IG's plan.

Arugula · Post Post #157 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:54 am

Sorry, I was looking in the role PMs for that. I thought you were talking about a scum-only ability.

I don't mind following IceGuy's plan. Had I realized that it was so similar, I would not have posted mine and I would have just cheered on IceGuy's.

Voidedmafia · Post Post #158 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:43 am

Post 140 - I can somewhat attest to silk powerlurking as scum, if my memory isn't betraying me.

Also, even if we can call it a newbtell, it's just off-putting if the plan presented looks just like one from another player, unintentional or no. Not that his responses have made him any better to me.

Post 141 - Why Vijay?

Post 142 - [offtopic]Wedding venue? Who's getting married?[/offtopic]

Hoops/Vijay's plan isn't bad (not that I would be able to say it's good or bad with any certainity), and I could get behind it.

Post 145 - Well, MoI kinda did that first, so...

Post 155 - *tsk noises*

Quilford · Post Post #159 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:33 pm

Game Board

Spoiler: Hoopla's collect

Spoiler: whispersilk's flip

Spoiler: Final Board & Activity Log

Day 1

Arugula

(4) DCLXVI, Amrun, Voidedmafia, AurorusVox

Hoopla

(2) Lady Lambdadelta, vijay2vasandani

vijay2vasandani

(2) Robocopter87, Hoopla

whispersilk

(2) 2minds1soul, MagnaofIllusion

Voidedmafia

(1) Arugula

Not Voting

(2) IceGuy, whispersilk

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline hits in (expired on 2012-07-08 11:20:06).

2minds1soul is being prodded. They have (expired on 2012-06-26 02:32:59) to respond.

MoI has declared Limited Access during weekends.
Amrun has declared V/LA for over two weeks from Sat, Jun 23, 2012 12:57.44 pm (AEST).

Quilford · Post Post #160 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:48 pm

Mod Announcement

Hey. Just a heads up that if you trade in letters to purchase an active ability at night, you can now specify the target you will use that ability on at the same time. I've added a new action PM accordingly.

Thanks for reading! Hope you're enjoying the game.

Voidedmafia · Post Post #161 (ISO) » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:00 pm

Spoiler: Possibly optional summation of the board

Hoopla · Post Post #162 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:14 am

UNVOTE:
VOTE: 2minds1soul

Lurking scum.

vijay2vasandani · Post Post #163 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:18 am

^ casual.

what's the case on Arugula again?

whispersilk · Post Post #164 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:39 am

I think the case on Arugula is based on the fact he posted a plan that was similar, but not identical, to one already proposed (apparently for town cred), while expecting to get criticised, and his subsequent reactions to the comments that followed. I think the more he tries to defend himself, the worse he makes himself look. I'm not buying it, mainly because I think his actions are a null tell, and apart from Amrun, who I have a town read on, the other 3 on his wagon are null reads for me at best.

AurorusVox · Post Post #165 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:56 am

VOTE: whispersilk

"null at best" implies one or more of the three on the wagon other than amrun is a scumread of yours. Yet you have no vote placed. Stop posturing and keeping your options open, scumbag.

Robocopter87 · Post Post #166 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:35 am

Arugula, why the heck are you still voting Voided?

Your initial reasoning was terrible. Then it was crushed by Voided and Amrun. You even replied to their defense as, "Fair enough". Yet your vote remains. It seems more of an omgus vote than anything else. So why does your vote remain?

MagnaofIllusion · Post Post #167 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:36 am

I believe all flips have been used. Everyone who has yet to take a letter should indicate which letters they are interested in.

I would like to take P / V / T in that approximate order.

--

Vijay wrote: I don't see what the problem is. I voted Hoopla because of AV's points. So sue me because I sheep early on.

AV’s point was terribly bad and you trying just sheep it as your reasoning reminds me somewhat of how you operated Day 1 in MST3K Mafia … you voted into a the dominant conflict at the point (this games it was Hoopla / LLD) piggy-backing off someone else’s reasoning (AV’s in this case).

Am I wrong in having issues with that?

Furthermore I am against your “Let’s list everyone 1-13 and mix it all together” to take tiles as that will result in much diversion from actual scum-hunting and is, as Hoopla put it, “a little bureaucratic and a waste of a bit of time”.

Vijay wrote: Unrelated: Hoopla, are you very smart? You sound like it.

Oh look, over-the-top buddying …. but it leads me to the a question –

Why are you still voting Hoopla if given how Town and smart you find her recent posts?

--

IceGuy wrote:Because I don't consider her scummy enough to want her lynched (especially as her towniness has been increasing with every subsequent post). I just don't want to give her a powerful letter at this point.

By this point in the game if you find you think Hoopla shouldn’t have a powerful letter I see no reason you couldn’t justify voting her. I think this is a dodge.

IceGuy wrote:Yet you only produce generalities when pressed about it.

And yet there are no more than generalities for me to comment on. Your ‘scummy players should not get powerful letters’ is just that.

Did you go research Andrius’s Mafia in Mordor Mini Theme that I referenced? In that game Town basically mass-claimed fairly early and completely directed all Night actions. This allowed scum to spot the holes in the plan and kill in a manner that was best suited for them. For example Town failed to realize that leaving a player who could vote the next day after death did not increase the number of votes to lynch, allowing scum to kill said play and endgame. Despite losing both partners early the Mina / me Hydra rode the wave of “Lynch based on these Night actions as opposed to who is deemed scummy” plan that was being bandied about and won thanks to Town not having a full understanding of the set-up.

Iceguy wrote:Amrun is null - she's showing less activity than she would usually do, but she has declared V/LA. I don't particularly worry about the null read since she tends to give off scum vibes later in the game if she is scum.

Please link me to the completed games where you have caught / pointed this out about scum-Amrun.

Iceguy wrote:MoI, what do you think of LLD and Robocopter? How many scum do you think is hiding amongst the lurkers/no-content posters?

Once LLD answers my open question I will give my read on her slot.

Robocopter is in my ‘leaning scum’ pool. He hasn’t posted much so far that reads as actually scum-hunting. Too much of what I see as Faux Town fluff IMO. I don’t think he is aligned with LLD based on how quickly he jumped on her proposal despite it being very anti-Town.

Are you seriously asking me about lurkers 4 pages into the game?

--

Argula’s Post 89 is definitely scummy as he acknowledges Iceguy’s plan at the same time as basically repackaging it as his own ‘new plan’. Furthermore his responses to suspicion have dominated his posts. Aside from his “I think the Ladies are Town” I see little in the way of opinion from him on who is scum that isn’t OMGUS / defensive driven.

Arugula wrote:
@DCL
Basically, my response to you would have been "I wasn't trying to cover my ass and I didn't realize how similar my plan was to IceGuy's" and you would've said "Bullshit." There isn't anything I can really refute and prove.

The problem I have with this is you specifically acknowledged that you found Iceguy’s plan to be good in the post where you basically regurgitated it. Saying you ‘didn’t realize how close they were’ after acknowledging Iceguy’s plan doesn’t make sense.

Arugula wrote: Is it that hard to accept the fact I made an honest mistake in not realizing my plan was similar to IceGuy's?
Is it that hard to accept that after having my previous plan beaten to death, I was a little wary of posting another one simply because I didn't want to come off as incompetent?

Given 89? Yes, it is hard to believe. Given the vast number of plans out there already having one you supposedly believed in shot down I would think a reasonable Town player would go “OK, others are building plans I’ll just follow the one that is most Pro-Town and scum-hunt instead of putting together yet another plan”.

Arugula wrote: Since when can scum steal letters? When was the idea ever brought up?

Scumslip?

And this puts you over the top in my opinion. Looks like hunting for things you can frame as scummy as opposed to actually scum-hunting.

VOTE: Arugula

--

Voided wrote: Also, while that's true, it's not as dangerous as getting an "n" is. IMO, Ninja is a far better role for scum than PGO is, and scum have no need for Cops or CPR, so I suppose the most you've done as scum is give us one less chance to get a Cop.

No it isn’t. While Ninja is powerful PGO and CPR Doc (like Vig) are over-the-top powerful for scum as they give scum an additional kill (or potential kill) above their Factional Nightkill.

A Ninja on scum who gets tracked or watched results in the Tracker or Watcher getting a false negative and dead Town. A PGO on scum who gets tracked or watched results in two dead Town players.

--

Amrun wrote: MoI, her plan was "take an unflipped tile if you're not close to spelling a word." Which means scum would know who did and did not have powers, which is a terrible, terrible idea, and all of the other ideas are just as terrible for this same reason.

I disagree in that I see it as “Take an unflipped tile if the available tiles don’t help you form a word”. Given that there are enough useless tiles (and we have several flipped already) for Town it isn’t indicative at all of who can’t be a Powerrole. Furthermore it is pretty clear (FMPOV anyway) that forming Pro-Town abilities is not going to be easy and happen every night.

Hoopla · Post Post #168 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:49 am

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:I believe all flips have been used. Everyone who has yet to take a letter should indicate which letters they are interested in.

I would like to take P / V / T in that approximate order.

I don't think people should indicate what letters they want, because I can pretty much tell what you have now.

Just take what you need without leaving too many clues. If you miss out on what you wanted, too bad. Be quicker next time.

AurorusVox · Post Post #169 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:58 am

Collect: A1

MoI; thoughts on Whispersilk slip?

MagnaofIllusion · Post Post #170 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:03 am

Collect: B2

Whispersilk is scummy. I'm not sure your 'slip' is any actually a slip. Null at best means just that - his behavior isn't necessarily a slam dunk. My issue is the fact that Whisper doesn't have any significant Scum-reads that I can see and doesn't seem to find issue with any of the non-Hoopla players on Arugula's wagon despite her thoughts that Arugula's behavior is not directly scummy.

IceGuy · Post Post #171 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:12 am

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:

IceGuy wrote:Because I don't consider her scummy enough to want her lynched (especially as her towniness has been increasing with every subsequent post). I just don't want to give her a powerful letter at this point.

By this point in the game if you find you think Hoopla shouldn’t have a powerful letter I see no reason you couldn’t justify voting her. I think this is a dodge.

No, it's called not dealing in absolutes.

IceGuy wrote:Yet you only produce generalities when pressed about it.

And yet there are no more than generalities for me to comment on. Your ‘scummy players should not get powerful letters’ is just that.

Did you go research Andrius’s Mafia in Mordor Mini Theme that I referenced? In that game Town basically mass-claimed fairly early and completely directed all Night actions. This allowed scum to spot the holes in the plan and kill in a manner that was best suited for them. For example Town failed to realize that leaving a player who could vote the next day after death did not increase the number of votes to lynch, allowing scum to kill said play and endgame. Despite losing both partners early the Mina / me Hydra rode the wave of “Lynch based on these Night actions as opposed to who is deemed scummy” plan that was being bandied about and won thanks to Town not having a full understanding of the set-up.

This is an open setup. If Mafia can find a flaw, so do we.

Iceguy wrote:Amrun is null - she's showing less activity than she would usually do, but she has declared V/LA. I don't particularly worry about the null read since she tends to give off scum vibes later in the game if she is scum.

Please link me to the completed games where you have caught / pointed this out about scum-Amrun.

Worst Role Mafia (read dead QT). Other games were lost in the crash or [redacted]

Are you seriously asking me about lurkers 4 pages into the game?

Yes.

↑ Hoopla wrote:
I don't think people should indicate what letters they want, because I can pretty much tell what you have now.

I expect people to muddy the waters.

↑ Hoopla wrote:
Just take what you need without leaving too many clues. If you miss out on what you wanted, too bad. Be quicker next time.

Good idea ... if we want scum taking important letters and justifying it with "but I had to be quick".

Nobody takes anything without asking.

I'd like to take an R, a T or a D. Any objections?

VOTE: whispersilk

Also willing to vote Hoopla as she keeps pushing plans that look good on the outside but are actually anti-town. One shitty plan can be bad thinking, two shitty plans are scummy.

Hoopla · Post Post #172 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:23 am

↑ IceGuy wrote:Good idea ... if we want scum taking important letters and justifying it with "but I had to be quick". Nobody takes anything without asking.

If scum want to be brazen enough to try and take the "best" letters at the start of each round, let them try. It's going to look awfully suspicious when they've picked first many days in a row but strangely haven't been targeted for the nightkill. It's like if scum want to be brazen enough to hammer each town wagon that gets to L-1 or L-2, they can, but they'll give themselves away.

I know Magna's exact hand now because of him floating his interest and I think I know yours now as well. Any half intelligent scum are capable of putting the pieces together.

We're not going to be rejecting anyone from taking specific letters, so there's no point voicing interest for letters that help you.

IceGuy · Post Post #173 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:26 am

↑ Hoopla wrote:
I know Magna's exact hand now because of him floating his interest and I think I know yours now as well. Any half intelligent scum are capable of putting the pieces together.

And any half intelligent town is capable of choosing his choices so even more-than-half intelligent scum can't reconstruct the hand.

Hoopla · Post Post #174 (ISO) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:28 am

↑ Hoopla wrote:We're not going to be rejecting anyone from taking specific letters, so there's no point voicing interest for letters that help you.

Respond to this, IceGuy.