Mini 1349: Words with Scum (Game over!)

[whispersilk]

Voided how does whisper prove herself town? She calls 2minds out for misrepping but doesn't call them scum - look at the end of the post where she reveals she knows 2minds is town by pushing for actual scum hunting from them.

How does me telling a lurker to get in the game and do some real scumhunting instead of wasting his time making a case on me, make me scum? I'd love to know. Also, misrepping does not always mean scum. Yes, he did misrep me, but whether that is due to him simply not reading my posts properly because he's lazy or because he's scum remains to be seen.

As scum, do you always make a habit of creating shit out of nothing then slinging it at people you're trying to get lynched?

[AurorusVox]

Yawn~

[whispersilk]

How does everyone feel about AurorusVox's refusal to answer the questions I've asked him now, and the ones from yesterday?

[Robocopter87]

wasting his time making a case

on me

Yep, that makes sense. Because scumhunting is a waste if the case is made on you and not someone else. Because pointing out three people, explaining why they are scummy, and connecting them to each other is a total waste of time if you are involved.

[Robocopter87]

You make a nice case. Well, case that recaps on all the other cases but you linked them together. However, I would like to ask, if you think that out of those three that if it wasn't for those three, you would think Whisper is town. Why did you want Whisper to be the first one to go?

That's a really good point. I'd like to know why too.

Wow. Suck up much?

You are getting worse and worse by the minute.

I'm down for a whipser lynch, Vijay isn't really going anywhere. I'm more willing to put pressure on.

UNVOTE: Vijay
VOTE: Whisper

[whispersilk]

From my POV, yes. He is wasting time trying to connect dots between me and two other players when none exist. I didn't say he should stop investigating anyone else. I said his case on me was bad and I showed why.

[Robocopter87]

Exactly, no dots exist, that was the entire point of his connection.

[whispersilk]

No, this is what he said:

The main thing we noticed that made us believe this is the scum team is the interaction. There is almost no interaction between them at all. One thing odd about it is that argula has mentioned almost every other person, except vijay and whisper. The first time a cross mention is made is...

He then proceeded to show two instances of me interacting with vijay, and one of me with Arugula. So tell me, how does his theory of me being scum with those two make any sense given his it's based on no interaction between us, and he completely ignored the several other players that I had no interaction with at that point, yourself, Amrun and Voided included? He's only just started contributing to the game, and he comes up with a theory where I am scum, while not bothering to read my posts, and misrepping me at the same time. You'd either have to be stupid or scum to sheep him.

So which are you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The point remains I am an easy target, because I am too passive to fight people who think I'm scummy.

Personally I find this stance to be bewilderingly absurd …

Since your definition of an easy lynch seems very fluid can you list those players on the playerlist who aren’t easy lynches?

--

Wow. Suck up much?

You are getting worse and worse by the minute.

I'm down for a whipser lynch, Vijay isn't really going anywhere. I'm more willing to put pressure on.

Um whut? You just finished telling 2for1 that out of his scum list Whisper was the most likely to be Town.

Now you turn around and vote Whisper (who you just said was most likely to be Town of the three) for “buddying” you?

--

I realise this, but it's not the only role M makes, and it could also be a very pro-town letter. In addition, my choice could have little to do with me trying to make up an ability, and more to do with preventing scum from snatching it today. The only person that knows why I chose it is obv me.

All of these are reasonable points but none of them address why you feel answering “I don’t have an S” wasn’t viable or how Voided was not being Town oriented in his question.

I'm not the only person to pick a letter that would benefit scum

, but no one else has been asked about their other letters. This coupled with what I said just said, means there is a specific reason why I'm being asked, and the fact it came from the one person who seems to really believe I am town, and not someone else, say yourself for example, just doesn't sit right quite right with me. I expected Voided to either have nothing to say about it, or to express some kind of relief at the most. I still don't know if he's just doubting himself in a similar way to my doubts about IG, or if he's being clever scum. I'm still leaning towards him being town.

Well given that multiple letters have both Pro Town and Pro Scum combinations makes the bolded dicey. Do you think anyone else has made a pick that can ONLY be beneficial to Scum (like S)? If so who are they?

As for the massclaim part of your question. I would have had no problem at all coughing up my letters if we were all doing that, and then following my idea of structuring night actions, but we are not. And I see no reason why I should now be the only person to have to reveal either of their letters just because I chose the M. I won't be doing it because revealing either of my other letters will be a detriment to the town. That is all I'm prepared to say.

Revealing that you do not have an S is not the same as revealing your other letters and attempting to suggest they are is logically invalid. Thus any objections to saying “I don’t have an S” can’t be grounded in this logic.

Sorry, I should have used a different word. My problem is not that I think the people who joined his wagon after me are scum, it's that most of them are either town or null reads. The players I find scummiest are not on his wagon, which worries me somewhat. I have Amrun as a town read, both you and Arugula are leaning town, and Voided is a null - leaning town. So I'm confused at to whether this is a town driven scum wagon (with scum trying to divert attention to other people such as myself), or a town driven town wagon with scum distancing themselves. When taking into account the fact that IG came up with a plan, can you see why I'm doubting myself?

I understand your line of thought but can’t say I really ascribe to it. I guess this line of thought means regardless of whether you think Iceguy is scum there are FYPOV at least 2 scum off the wagon. I guess I would like your thoughts on those most likely to be scum (in two groups … scum diverting from a partner and scum simply staying off the wagon) who are not on Iceguy’s wagon.

[IceGuy]

Well given that multiple letters have both Pro Town and Pro Scum combinations makes the bolded dicey. Do you think anyone else has made a pick that can ONLY be beneficial to Scum (like S)? If so who are they?

Do you sincerely believe that S is a letter that can only be beneficial to scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do you sincerely believe that S is a letter that can only be beneficial to scum?

Read Post 86. It has already been explained there.

Do you

NOT

consider S to be only beneficial to scum?

[IceGuy]

Read Post 86. It has already been explained there.

Okay, so it's just your typical shitty reasoning.

Do you

NOT

consider S to be only beneficial to scum?

Obviously not.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Explain why you could possibly consider S as anything other than Pro-scum.

Your continual reliance on insults and "No U" as opposed to being able to reason is further noted.

[IceGuy]

Explain why you could possibly consider S as anything other than Pro-scum.

Letter Steal can be used in conjunction with a vig, a planned lynch, or as a "weak vig". Share can duplicate a pro-town power. Strongman is the most anti-town of the three, but it's not the usual Strongman which would be very anti-town - it's a modifier to any action,

Your continual reliance on insults and "No U" as opposed to being able to reason is further noted.

Hearing this from you is almost funny.

[AurorusVox]

@whisperscum: Is 2minds stupid?

Um whut? You just finished telling 2for1 that out of his scum list Whisper was the most likely to be Town.

Now you turn around and vote Whisper (who you just said was most likely to be Town of the three) for “buddying” you?

You're not this stupid MoI. You're scum, aren't you? Scum with Whisper?

Damn, bro. Your distancing-vote earlier had me convinced for a while, though the hop off was a little suspicious. But you've given it away here now. Sadface.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Letter Steal can be used in conjunction with a vig, a planned lynch, or as a "weak vig". Share can duplicate a pro-town power. Strongman is the most anti-town of the three, but it's not the usual Strongman which would be very anti-town - it's a modifier to any action,

Letter Steal only can benefit Scum in any effective way. Scum aren't going to leave useful letters around to be stolen and furthermore you should be lynching players you find scummy not leaving them alive to steal their letters. The rest of your argument revolves around 'directing' powers which aids scum as well as it does Town.

Share is only possibly useful in late game as it requires you to use two letters to send any remaining letters to another player. This requires coordination between Town players and is only useful in specific situations late-game

Given that scum are required to form combinations to roleblocker / JK players Town worrying about getting a Strongman to get off an ability use unblocked means they have to wait for Night 2 at the earliest (and any strong Town powers would require Night 3) to make any use out of it. Scum on the other hand can use it in conjunction with their Nightkill as early as Night 1.

Your line of thought shows you aren't thinking in any depth about the topics in question but are simply trying through rhetoric to undermine me which is quite scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You're not this stupid MoI. You're scum, aren't you? Scum with Whisper?

Damn, bro. Your distancing-vote earlier had me convinced for a while, though the hop off was a little suspicious. But you've given it away here now. Sadface.

Lulz ...

[Voidedmafia]

Post 284 A) They can save it for N2 or N3 or whatever.

B) as MoI said, "s" is a pretty pro-scum letter (out of the three possible combinations it makes, only one is in any way protown (share). Unless you're going to say you have an H, I don't see why I shouldn't be worried whether or not I believe you to be a townread.

(Now, while it's true that "m" has it the other way around (2 of the three combinations it makes are in the pro-town range and the only other is a pro-scum one (Strongman)), one requires 2 other letters, and the other requires a C, assuming you don't have that in your starting tiles.)

Post 285 - ...Do you REALLY believe I'm active lurking?

Post 287 - THat means, she knows they're town? I never knew that...

But realy, I found her reaction to her case to be town.

Post 298 - The only two other people I can really question about are Robo an dLLD, but since they collected without know the letters, I can really only hope they don't have the letters for the pro-scum roles. Or the others have 1 letter for 3-letter combinations, and it's kinda useless to ask about that at this point as having the right opening tiles IMO is possibly, but unlikely.

Post 301 - Scratch that townread, Whisper. He's gone down to null now.

Post 303 - Pretty sure that's a misrep?

Post 304 - Magna responded better than I could, so I'll suffice by saying I agree with him.

Post 309, 311, 311 - Did IceGuy just knock himself off the "smart guy" ladder? yeesh, man, be more scummy, will you?

Post 314 - aaaand now he's nullscum. Way ta go.

[IceGuy]

Scum aren't going to leave useful letters around to be stolen

Of course they are, or do you think scum will magically always be able to use all their letters? Letters (currently) useless to one player can be useful to another player.

and furthermore you should be lynching players you find scummy not leaving them alive to steal their letters.

So let's never vig or RB scummy players because we should be lynching them!

The rest of your argument revolves around 'directing' powers which aids scum as well as it does Town.

Both parts of that statement are wrong - this power does not necessary need to be directed, and directing can benefit town more than scum.

Share is only possibly useful in late game as it requires you to use two letters to send any remaining letters to another player. This requires coordination between Town players and is only useful in specific situations late-game

It's generally useful if one has no good combination except for SH and a strong townread. Or if one worries about getting lynched or NK'd.

Given that scum are required to form combinations to roleblocker / JK players Town worrying about getting a Strongman to get off an ability use unblocked means they have to wait for Night 2 at the earliest (and any strong Town powers would require Night 3) to make any use out of it. Scum on the other hand can use it in conjunction with their Nightkill as early as Night 1.

That's why I said Strongman is the most anti-town of the three powers. It's still not only anti-town as you claimed.

Your line of thought shows you aren't thinking in any depth about the topics in question but are simply trying through rhetoric to undermine me which is quite scummy.

*yawn*

You're a broken record. And still a shitty reasoner.

[Voidedmafia]

1.) The point is that scum aren't going to allow themselves to give away letters that could potentially help town just as much as town aren't going to do the same for scum. (correct me if I'm wrong, MoI)

2.) You're missing the point. Yes, RBing or Vigging is fine, but leaving someone alive

just so you can kill them at night and steal their letters

instead of

trying to get them lynched

is not.

3.) Sure sounded like you wanted it directed.

4.) If the only good combination you have is SH, either you got the bad end of the stick or you're just that bad at choosing your tiles. Also, the last point is situational.

5.) Don't quite get what you're saying here.

6.) So you agree with what he said about you?

[IceGuy]

1.) The point is that scum aren't going to allow themselves to give away letters that could potentially help town just as much as town aren't going to do the same for scum. (correct me if I'm wrong, MoI)

Letter

Steal

has nothing to do with "giving away letters".

2.) You're missing the point. Yes, RBing or Vigging is fine, but leaving someone alive

just so you can kill them at night and steal their letters

instead of

trying to get them lynched

is not.

In this case, you missed my point.

3.) Sure sounded like you wanted it directed.

That's one possibility.

4.) If the only good combination you have is SH, either you got the bad end of the stick or you're just that bad at choosing your tiles. Also, the last point is situational.

Okay.

5.) Don't quite get what you're saying here.

I said Strongman is the most anti-town of the three S powers, but it is not completely anti-town (it can help town under certain circumstances).

6.) So you agree with what he said about you?

Yes, of course. I totally agree that I'm scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Of course they are, or do you think scum will magically always be able to use all their letters? Letters (currently) useless to one player can be useful to another player.

List all letters that are useless to scum (aka they will not use them) that they will actively select and just hold in their hand. Because your argument is “It’s Pro-Town because we can steal letters from scum” when you don’t seem to have a clue about why there will not be loads of letters sitting around. Your whole argument seems to resolve around "Scum will be stupid and make sure they don't utilize their letters. We can safely assume that they are just going to sit on their ass".

So let's never vig or RB scummy players because we should be lynching them!

Nice straw-man argument. I never said we shouldn’t be vigging or RBing scum. You are trying to take the position that Letter Steal is equivalent to either of these when it clearly is not.

Vig makes target dead.
RB blocks all ability use of the target (barring Strongman) that Night.
Letter Steal nets most likely one or two letters that may or may not be useful. So you are trading L and S for unknown other letters.

One of these things is not like the other …

Both parts of that statement are wrong - this power does not necessary need to be directed, and directing can benefit town more than scum.

If you are going to continue to “No U” then I don’t know what else to do. Stating something doesn’t make it true.

I’ve already shown (and I assume you ignored so you could pretend it does not exist) a clear example by which mass direction of Powers fucked over Town royally.

It's generally useful if one has no good combination except for SH and a strong townread. Or if one worries about getting lynched or NK'd.

That's why I said Strongman is the most anti-town of the three powers. It's still not only anti-town as you claimed.

You are arguing niche and very limited application scenarios that are unlikely to actually occur in a limited duration game. Strongman overwhelmingly is only going to be of use to scum. Hopping up and down saying "But if the Moons align just right Town can us it too therefore it’s not Pro-scum” is poor reasoning.

[IceGuy]

Reading that post, my first question:

Are you really that stupid or do you misinterpret me on purpose?

List all letters that are useless to scum (aka they will not use them) that they will actively select and just hold in their hand. Because your argument is “It’s Pro-Town because we can steal letters from scum” when you don’t seem to have a clue about why there will not be loads of letters sitting around. Your whole argument seems to resolve around "Scum will be stupid and make sure they don't utilize their letters. We can safely assume that they are just going to sit on their ass".

That's not what I said. I said scum is going to have some letters lying around because they will not always be able to utilize them at the current moment. If you have a C and a B you can use both letters but just not currently because there's nothing you get for CB or BC.

Nice straw-man argument. I never said we shouldn’t be vigging or RBing scum.

You said we should be lynching scum, instead.

You are trying to take the position that Letter Steal is equivalent to either of these when it clearly is not.

Vig makes target dead.
RB blocks all ability use of the target (barring Strongman) that Night.
Letter Steal nets most likely one or two letters that may or may not be useful. So you are trading L and S for unknown other letters.

One of these things is not like the other …

Yeah, vig makes them dead, the others leave them alive.

Letter Steal is a weak RB for possible future powers.

Both parts of that statement are wrong - this power does not necessary need to be directed, and directing can benefit town more than scum.

If you are going to continue to “No U” then I don’t know what else to do. Stating something doesn’t make it true.

Quoting my statement and yours to show that I wasn't actually saying "No U", but rather making clear that you pulled assumptions out of thin air.

I’ve already shown (and I assume you ignored so you could pretend it does not exist) a clear example by which mass direction of Powers fucked over Town royally.

The fact that one example fucked over town does not mean directing is anti-town in general. Contrary to what you said, I acknowledged this. It's you who claims that this one example makes all directing efforts magically anti-town.

You are arguing niche and very limited application scenarios that are unlikely to actually occur in a limited duration game. Strongman overwhelmingly is only going to be of use to scum. Hopping up and down saying "But if the Moons align just right Town can us it too therefore it’s not Pro-scum” is poor reasoning.

They are just as "niche" or "very limited" as the scum applications of those powers would be. Share is only of use to scum if you share between scum players and make sure town doesn't catch you because letters aren't where they should be, and Strongman is only of use if there is actually something that would inhibit your action. They're just not strong powers.

[Amrun]

Why is everyone missing the very basic fact that town having letters like S is good because then scum don't have them?

And who asked whispersilk if she had an s? That's scummy as fuck.

[Amrun]

It was voided. Why would you do that shit, man.