Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[Starbuck]

Kortul, I'm a brand new Whovian and I was directed to start with the 9th Doctor (Christopher Eccleston) and work through the current seasons, then go back and watch the older stuff.


On the GreyICE "claim", I would like to see what Grey has to say for himself, but as of right now, I'm of the opinion of it being a joke or a means to ruffle Zang's feathers.

[jasonT1981]

CMAR is right--daycops are definitely not that prevalent in themes. Daycop

jokes

are much, much more common.

The fact Zang/Gray have history is reason for Gray to investigate him off the bat.

It is also a reason why he would lie.... I believe this to be the case.

GrayICE are you prepared to go into a 1vs1 with Zang day 1... IE we lynch him and he flips town, we lynch you tomorrow for being proven to be lying?

Am also thinking GrayICE maybe a 3rd party lyncher.

Do you want fries to go with that fence and water-testing? First you're saying that Grey has good reason to investigate Zang. Then that he can also be lying. Then you go on about a 1v1 that is OBVIOUS if Grey is telling the truth and makes no sense if he's not, so you're just testing how strong is the animosity between them. And end with a ridiculous lyncher notion, because everyone lynches off daycop claims on D1.

You're hardly inexperienced, jason. Why this post?
The protown behavior-reactions would be likely to be: 1) dismiss it as an obvious joke or 2)

ask

. You chose 3) sowing confusion.

Let's see if you understand what else is behind door #3:
UNVOTE: Iecerint
VOTE: jasonT1981

Simply analyzing and pointing out all possible reasons for it. I never once laughed off role cop idea, I just said I don't but believe GrayICE.

with that...

UNVOTE:

I want GreyICE to put his money were his mouth is, and see if he is willing to back it up.

Back on Monday. Travelling all day tomorrow, wont have access to a computer until I get home Sunday night.

[T-Bone]

Gray is probably faking, but Zang is taking the fact that people are voting him based on an "obvious lie" from a player he has history with too calmly imo.

Vote: Zang

This, left a bad taste in my mouth. "Oh he isn't freaking out he must be scum".

What if he was freaking out, would you use that as an excuse to vote?

Vote: greenknight

What is the proper reaction to getting called scum....scum?

That's the one thing that sticks out to me in this early phase.

[kortul]

@kortul: Is this post scummy since I largely ignored RVS as well then?

Hmm, there is no connection between this post and you skipping RVS. I actually liked the post, since our thought process seem to be mostly the same so far. As for the RVS, do i understand you correctly and you ignored it intentionally? If yes, what was the reason?

I don't like greenknight's made-up scumtell or the fact that he's bandwagoning despite admitting Grey is faking.

The fact that Grey may be faking doesn't mean that Zang can't be a scum. So the question is if the reason for greenknight vote good or not. Zang asked him a good question, and i would like to hear the answer first before coming to conclusions.

Yes, Completely. We both hate the other's playstyle and usually want them lynched.

I haven't played with him in a while but from what I can remember, he is very overly aggressive.

So you don't remember exactly why do you hate his playstyle? Maybe it's time then to reassess the "see him - lynch him" approach?

@GreyICE - what is your side of the story?

Simply analyzing and pointing out all possible reasons for it. I never once laughed off role cop idea, I just said I don't but believe GrayICE.

I assumed that were your thoughts aloud. If that was an analysis - it is lacking. I can imagine at least several other possible reasons from the start, but once again - why speculate when you can ask?

@Tierce - i don't like jasonT1981 analysis part, but his warning "GrayICE are you prepared to go into a 1vs1 with Zang day 1" sound more townish, imho.

Hmm, wait, if he knows for sure that at least one of Grey/Zang is scum, then this can be a subtle warning to a partner or "i dare you" attempt to save a partner from a possible personal attack that actually nailed him. But that's too many ifs, and based on unknown alignments.

[greenknight]

This, left a bad taste in my mouth. "Oh he isn't freaking out he must be scum".

What if he was freaking out, would you use that as an excuse to vote?

To me it's natural to get pissed off as town if someone fakeclaims against me, especially if it's someone I don't get along with in the first place, so I'd have read him going "you people are idiots or scum for believing that crap" as a likely town response.

On the other hand, if I was scum and got a claim against me I'd be worried even if the claim looked dubious because I would know the result was true. So yes, I do believe playing it passively to avoid drawing further attention and waiting for Grey to retract the claim to be a more likely scum response - and Zang has been in a purely reactive mode up to this point, only commenting on posts related to himself.

[triangle123]

I'm typing this on a phone and I'm absolutely terrible at it so I apologize for any typos as well as formatting fails. I'll hold off commenting on Grey's claim until after he responds to the question that was asked of him.

As for Jason's post, while I agree it certainly was not the best of posts, I don't see it as necessarily scummy. The beginning of his post did not really appear that fencesitty to me because he did end up stating an opinion and it seemed like he was considegring the two most straightforward possibilities.

vote: greenknight

I do, however, take issue with greenknight's vote. The reasoning felt contrived, and his explanation did not really improve mattefrs. Green, if you think scum are more likely to try and deflect attention in this scenario, then why do you find it scummy that zang's posts focus on the claim?

[Acosmist]

This, left a bad taste in my mouth. "Oh he isn't freaking out he must be scum".

What if he was freaking out, would you use that as an excuse to vote?

To me it's natural to get pissed off as town if someone fakeclaims against me, especially if it's someone I don't get along with in the first place, so I'd have read him going "you people are idiots or scum for believing that crap" as a likely town response.

On the other hand, if I was scum and got a claim against me I'd be worried even if the claim looked dubious because I would know the result was true. So yes, I do believe playing it passively to avoid drawing further attention and waiting for Grey to retract the claim to be a more likely scum response - and Zang has been in a purely reactive mode up to this point, only commenting on posts related to himself.

You...have an extremely bizarre view of how GreyICE's claim should be handled. You've put a lot of thought into how Zang should react and not as much in GreyICE's motivation for making the claim in the first place. Explain.

[T-Bone]

unvote

Wow Triangle he just explained it. It's a good enough explanation for me.

However Greenknight all you're doing is inviting WIFOM. "Oh if this happened to me I would react like this" but you know that about yourself so you react differently, but you know people will call you for it so you don't react differently, but then people will expect it...etc.etc.etc. Your vote on Zang is all WIFOM because there is no 'proper' way to react. If GreyICE did it to me, I'd blow it off, because freaking out attracts attention. But then of course I could freak out because that's the bvious thing to do and scum won't do that...again etc.etc.etc.

[Zang]

So you don't remember exactly why do you hate his playstyle? Maybe it's time then to reassess the "see him - lynch him" approach?

I told you that he is overly aggressive, that's reasoning enough not to like him. I also don't like his attitude towards me.

I don't have a "see him - lynch him" approach. I only lynch people that I think is scum. GreyICE does a lot of stuff that I would normally consider a scumtell which is why I try to lynch him often. However, I would not lynch him just because he is GreyICE. My current vote on him is mostly RVS.

To me it's natural to get pissed off as town if someone fakeclaims against me, especially if it's someone I don't get along with in the first place, so I'd have read him going "you people are idiots or scum for believing that crap" as a likely town response.

On the other hand, if I was scum and got a claim against me I'd be worried even if the claim looked dubious because I would know the result was true. So yes, I do believe playing it passively to avoid drawing further attention and waiting for Grey to retract the claim to be a more likely scum response - and Zang has been in a purely reactive mode up to this point, only commenting on posts related to himself.

Maybe that's because most of the posts are related to myself and GreyICE's claim. There isn't much else to respond to.

Can you understand how the opposite is true for some people? I think it's more likely for scum to act aggresively towards the people on his wagon because if they die then it is a huge blow to the scum faction. While town would have no reason to get worried.

Also, I never called the people who believe his claim idiots or scum. In fact, I clearly stated that I might have done the same thing if he claimed that he got a guilty against someone else.

You have pretty bad reasoning.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 1.2 - As of post 84

GreyICE (2) - Zang, Starbuck
Greenknight (3) - Acosmist, CryMeARiver, triangle123
jasont1981 (1) - Tierce
T-Bone (1) - kortul
Zang (3) - GreyICE, Iecerint, Greenknight

Not Voting (3) - Korlash, jasonT1981, T-Bone

The Current deadline is July 17, 2012 at 10:00 am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-07-17 10:00:00).

With 13 active votes - 7 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

Mod Notes -
I will be LA this weekend. I will be making updates but may be slow to respond to PMs.

jasonT1981 is V/LA Saturday 6/30 and Sunday 7/1.

[greenknight]

I do, however, take issue with greenknight's vote. The reasoning felt contrived, and his explanation did not really improve mattefrs. Green, if you think scum are more likely to try and deflect attention in this scenario, then why do you find it scummy that zang's posts focus on the claim?

I said "avoid drawing" attention, not actively deflecting.

You...have an extremely bizarre view of how GreyICE's claim should be handled. You've put a lot of thought into how Zang should react and not as much in GreyICE's motivation for making the claim in the first place. Explain.

I think joke claims are a null-tell regarding alignment, and we shouldn't discuss Grey's motivation until he explains himself.

However Greenknight all you're doing is inviting WIFOM. "Oh if this happened to me I would react like this" but you know that about yourself so you react differently, but you know people will call you for it so you don't react differently, but then people will expect it...etc.etc.etc. Your vote on Zang is all WIFOM because there is no 'proper' way to react. If GreyICE did it to me, I'd blow it off, because freaking out attracts attention. But then of course I could freak out because that's the bvious thing to do and scum won't do that...again etc.etc.etc.

Yes, to some extent there's WIFOM and different people play differently. I don't have specific meta on Zang so it might be style clash. However my opinion is that on average, town are more likely to be aggressive in the early game than scum are because they feel like they have less to lose, and I'm willing to vote for more info on this basis when there's not much else to go on.

Can you understand how the opposite is true for some people? I think it's more likely for scum to act aggresively towards the people on his wagon because if they die then it is a huge blow to the scum faction. While town would have no reason to get worried.

In the context of you saying that Grey is overaggro I can see where you're coming from, although like I said above, I think town usually feel they have less to lose by sticking their neck out.

Also, I never called the people who believe his claim idiots or scum. In fact, I clearly stated that I might have done the same thing if he claimed that he got a guilty against someone else.

I didn't say you did, I said I might have (called people idiots.)

Do you think Grey is a player who would recklessly use day abilities at the start of d1 in this way?

[Zang]

In the context of you saying that Grey is overaggro I can see where you're coming from, although like I said above, I think town usually feel they have less to lose by sticking their neck out.

But scum have more to lose by staying silent.

I didn't say you did, I said I might have (called people idiots.)

But they aren't idiots or scum just because they believe his claim. So why would I call them that?

Do you think Grey is a player who would recklessly use day abilities at the start of d1 in this way?

Why do you ask? I already stated that his claim is an obvious lie.

Also, I assume you are retracting the point about me only commenting on stuff about myself since you did not respond to that.

[Korlash]

So Jason has the 'fencesitting' and Green has the backwards logic... Zang's 65 irks me...

I might have even voted if it was somebody else.

If it was somebody else that was investigated or someone else doing said investigation?

Consider me persuaded to give it a try. Is it worth to start from the beginning (First Doctor), or are those seasons independent and later seasons will give better initial impressions? (will be watching with a wife and kid).

I would start with the ninth doctor, season 1, and go from there. You don't need to know Eccleston when you start watching Tennant, but it's good to know Rose's backstory so the references make sense.

To me it's natural to get pissed off as town if someone fakeclaims against me, especially if it's someone I don't get along with in the first place, so I'd have read him going "you people are idiots or scum for believing that crap" as a likely town response.

On the other hand, if I was scum and got a claim against me I'd be worried even if the claim looked dubious because I would know the result was true. So yes, I do believe playing it passively to avoid drawing further attention and waiting for Grey to retract the claim to be a more likely scum response - and Zang has been in a purely reactive mode up to this point, only commenting on posts related to himself.

Except half the players in the game were voicing their doubts as to ICE's claim, it was made on page one, and the person making it has yet to back it up. No scum worth their mettle would freak out over that. In addition, I see more town going "You people are idiots" then I do scum...

Considering the only real discussion pertaining to the game so far has been the ICE-Zang thing... why is it weird that all of his posts have been responses to it?

I don't like T-Bones vote/unvote either. He explained it well but it's all wifom? Doesn't make sense being both mate.

And it seems my vote didn't count... Huh... I wonder if this ruins my self vote streak... Does it count? I'm gunna say it does... moving on then...

Vote: T-Bone

Going on a hunch.

Also ICE still not here... makes me sad... someone call in K-9 to track him down...

[jasonT1981]

So Jason has the 'fencesitting' and Green has the backwards logic... Zang's 65 irks me...

I am pretty sure that saying I don't believe GrayICE is not fence sitting, but taking a position.

I merely pointed out some of the possible scenarios which has been twisted to fence sitting.

[Zang]

Zang's 65 irks me...

How?

If it was somebody else that was investigated or someone else doing said investigation?

I don't think it really matters. In my mind I just imagined it as a general situation where someone claimed daycop and said that someone else was guilty in that situation.

[GreyICE]

Zang is actually town folks. What can I say Hate his guts still.

It therefore follows that Iecerint is town.

Tierce is town because she's awesome again, although I have some misgivings.

Korlash gets to be town today, because he amuses me, even if he's not half as funny as he thinks he is.

This dude though, this dude is not town at all.

Vote: JasonT1981

Acosmist is town, probable other scum is Greenknight and Starbuck.

[jasonT1981]

be still my beating hearts! LOLGrayICE

I call it BS, he admits it and votes me..

yawn, hows that butt hurt?

[Tierce]

be still my beating hearts! LOLGrayICE

I call it BS

, he admits it and votes me..

yawn, hows that butt hurt?

Did you?

Because from where I'm standing, you even claimed you weren't laughing off the possibility of a daycop, just 'analyzing all the possibilities', ridiculous as they were:

CMAR is right--daycops are definitely not that prevalent in themes. Daycop

jokes

are much, much more common.

The fact Zang/Gray have history is reason for Gray to investigate him off the bat.

It is also a reason why he would lie.... I believe this to be the case.

GrayICE are you prepared to go into a 1vs1 with Zang day 1... IE we lynch him and he flips town, we lynch you tomorrow for being proven to be lying?

Am also thinking GrayICE maybe a 3rd party lyncher.

Do you want fries to go with that fence and water-testing? First you're saying that Grey has good reason to investigate Zang. Then that he can also be lying. Then you go on about a 1v1 that is OBVIOUS if Grey is telling the truth and makes no sense if he's not, so you're just testing how strong is the animosity between them. And end with a ridiculous lyncher notion, because everyone lynches off daycop claims on D1.

You're hardly inexperienced, jason. Why this post?
The protown behavior-reactions would be likely to be: 1) dismiss it as an obvious joke or 2)

ask

. You chose 3) sowing confusion.

Let's see if you understand what else is behind door #3:
UNVOTE: Iecerint
VOTE: jasonT1981

Simply analyzing and pointing out all possible reasons for it. I never once laughed off role cop idea, I just said I don't but believe GrayICE.

with that...

UNVOTE:

I want GreyICE to put his money were his mouth is, and see if he is willing to back it up.

Back on Monday. Travelling all day tomorrow, wont have access to a computer until I get home Sunday night.

These two posts are written with completely different frames of mind. The first one was trying to appease me, and now he's straight out attacking Grey for... butthurt? Really? Where is the conclusion to that carefully crafted analysis of lynchers and daycops and stuff, that was riddled with rolefishing and so nicely placed to allow you to lynch one today and the other tomorrow?


We can simply push this one out into the xtonic surface of Midnight.

[Iecerint]

I don't understand the logic where ZangTown->IecTown....

If GreyICE and Zang are both town, I think Jason looks bad, especially for the "But the 1/1 looks good!" point that kortul noted above (before GreyICE's retcon).

Unvote
Vote: Jason

[Iecerint]

I think T-Bone is town.

[Korlash]

I am pretty sure that saying I don't believe GrayICE is not fence sitting, but taking a position.

I merely pointed out some of the possible scenarios which has been twisted to fence sitting.

The fact Zang/Gray have history is reason for Gray to investigate him off the bat.

It is also a reason why he would lie.... I believe this to be the case.

Regardless of which side you toss your coin into, putting both of these side by side is a clear fence sit. You destroy all creditability you gained by picking a side when you reneged on that choice by talking about the 1v1, meaning you are still giving rise to the idea his claim isn't a lie.

Saying "I believe such and such" means nothing if your actions still show you strongly entertaining both possibilities. As it stands though, it's a rather dull fence sit that means very little given the circumstance which is why I paid it little mind.

How?

See the question I asked you for more details...

I don't think it really matters. In my mind I just imagined it as a general situation where someone claimed daycop and said that someone else was guilty in that situation.

It does matter. So you're saying when you said you might have voted were it somebody else you were not talking about either the investigator or the investigated specifically? I find that hard to believe...

Korlash gets to be town today, because he amuses me, even if he's not half as funny as he thinks he is.

I only think I'm half funny to begin with... ;_; You hurt me sir, uncalled for...

Zang is actually town folks. What can I say Hate his guts still.

Are you still sticking with your fake daycop shtick, or is this just a hunch?

I think T-Bone is town.

Explain...

[Iecerint]

Mainly because I had the same thoughts as T-Bone going through my head when I read his first post with content.

[Korlash]

Mainly because I had the same thoughts as T-Bone going through my head when I read his first post with content.

Then you're missing the point. His 82 is in no way something coming from a townie...

[Korlash]

also, read who's first post? T-Bones? Which post do you consider his first with content? Just so I know I'm on the same page...

[Iecerint]

I'm referring to his post about greenknight.