Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[T-Bone]

Greenknight's explanation was good enough for me. My vote was to pressure him, not to try and go into a full head of steam lynch. I disagree with his reasons, but just because I disagree with him doesn't mean I have to think of him as scum.

[Korlash]

I'm referring to his post about greenknight.

I'm fairly certain you are talking about post 77 but for the record, when you're asked to clear something up like this try using post numbers. Both of his posts were about greenknight mate.

Greenknight's explanation was good enough for me. My vote was to pressure him, not to try and go into a full head of steam lynch. I disagree with his reasons, but just because I disagree with him doesn't mean I have to think of him as scum.

A few things bothered me about your vote/unvote. For starters, you say Green's thing was the

only

thing that stood out to you in this early phase, yet you ran away from the vote after one single post. Not only that, but you 180 and seem to chastise the wagon you were just on. And on top of that, you seem to be in turn defending Greenknight himself. So the only thing that you thought worth commenting on in the early phase, you completely 180 on immediately... and you don't even have a strong belief in what green said because you say you disagree with him.

Wow Triangle he just explained it. It's a good enough explanation for me.

This ^ has no basis coming from a townie. A second ago you were voting Green, but now you've stepped out to comment against someone who has a problem with his explanation. Why did you feel the need to single out Triangle here? Why are you calling out people voting the wagon you were just on, for seemingly no reason?

[T-Bone]

Because Triangle was the ONLY one to vote? Crazy I know!

[Starbuck]

greenknight's 85 just makes me feel like he's taking himself further and further into a hole with each post he makes. It also seemed like greenknight had jumped onto this "Zang must be scum" idea and was trying to find a way to roll with it, but there's really nothing to incriminate Zang with. Not to mention how far off that green's gone into WIFOM territory.

Nice work getting us out of RVS, Grey, but how exactly am I scum? Because I didn't get worked up over what I thought was a joke?

[Korlash]

Because Triangle was the ONLY one to vote? Crazy I know!

Okay... Why did you even feel the need to comment on his vote at all?

[jasonT1981]

be still my beating hearts! LOLGrayICE

I call it BS

, he admits it and votes me..

yawn, hows that butt hurt?

Did you?

Because from where I'm standing, you even claimed you weren't laughing off the possibility of a daycop, just 'analyzing all the possibilities', ridiculous as they were:

Yes

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p4152755]
On Serious note, I don't believe GrayICE for a second on his claim.[/quote]


Im pretty sure thats not fence sitting, but taking a position on it.

my follow up post, was simply putting forward some possible scenarios for what is going on in regards to Gray. Low and behold,

Don't like it, deal with it...

But to push I was fence sitting is BS. Now, im off to wash my long blonde hair (yes, its been dyed) and I am away for weekend...I plan on being so drunk I end up on the planet Messaline (or find myself in a void HAHAHA)

tootdles!

[Zang]

I assume GreyICE is admitting that the whole cop thing wasn't real.

I don't really think Jason is that scummy. It is important for town to consider all possibilities and as long as he took a position, I fail to see how it is fence sitting. What he did might be seen as scummy combined with other reasoning but for now, it is not very scummy.

greenknight's reasoning is terrible and he seems to be incapable of viewing things from other perspectives.

Unvote
Vote: greenknight

Also:

Yes, to some extent there's WIFOM and different people play differently. I don't have specific meta on Zang so it might be style clash. However my opinion is that on average, town are more likely to be aggressive in the early game than scum are because they feel like they have less to lose, and I'm willing to vote for more info on this basis when there's not much else to go on.

What data do you base that off of? In this game alone, several people have said that they think otherwise.

It does matter. So you're saying when you said you might have voted were it somebody else you were not talking about either the investigator or the investigated specifically? I find that hard to believe...

Why? I didn't think a lot about the situation itself, my point was that the people who are voting me are not scum or idiots for voting me.

Because Triangle was the ONLY one to vote? Crazy I know

What do you mean? Acosmist and CryMeARiver were also voting for him.

The case on T-bone also makes sense but I think that greenknight is a better vote.

[greenknight]

@Greyice: Posting a list of reads with no reasoning at all? Seriously?

greenknight's 85 just makes me feel like he's taking himself further and further into a hole with each post he makes. It also seemed like greenknight had jumped onto this "Zang must be scum" idea and was trying to find a way to roll with it, but there's really nothing to incriminate Zang with. Not to mention how far off that green's gone into WIFOM territory.

The point was more to pressure Zang and get a reaction.

greenknight's reasoning is terrible and

he seems to be incapable of viewing things from other perspectives.

Bolded part is wrong, I already admitted in a previous post it might be a clash of styles. I've just had to explain why I voted for you a few times because people asked me. It's just my experience that scum are more likely to keep their heads down in the early game because people are quicker to jump on minor things, and I'm aware not everyone agrees with this.

re. Zang 86

I asked whether you thought Grey would actually use abilities at start of d1, because you mentioned that if he'd called a guilty on someone else you might well have followed him.

In any case I didn't find any further scum tells in our back and forth, so

unvote

for now.

[GreyICE]

@Greyice: Posting a list of reads with no reasoning at all? Seriously?

If you were town you'd understand my reasoning.

Unless you're Icerint.

[T-Bone]

@Zang, Triangle was the only one to vote between my posts.

[greenknight]

@Greyice: Posting a list of reads with no reasoning at all? Seriously?

If you were town you'd understand my reasoning.

Unless you're Icerint.

With the exception of Starbuck, your list conveniently boiled down to "I'll just call people picking up votes scum and those who aren't town". So colour me unimpressed by this statement.

Vote: GreyIce

[Zang]

Bolded part is wrong, I already admitted in a previous post it might be a clash of styles. I've just had to explain why I voted for you a few times because people asked me. It's just my experience that scum are more likely to keep their heads down in the early game because people are quicker to jump on minor things, and I'm aware not everyone agrees with this.

But what experience is that? As I pointed out, you seem to just be going off of your own playstyle rather than what is common. You stated that the average townie does that but several townies have already stated that that is not how they do that. That makes it a terrible scum tell.

It's like lurking, scum may do it but enough town also do it to make it ineffective at catching scum.

I asked whether you thought Grey would actually use abilities at start of d1, because you mentioned that if he'd called a guilty on someone else you might well have followed him

As I said to Korlash, I though of it as a general scenario and it was just used to prove the point that the people who believed his claim were not idiots or scum.

If you were town you'd understand my reasoning.

Unless you're Icerint.

This is terrible reasoning.

@Zang, Triangle was the only one to vote between my posts.

Why does that mean that you had to address him? He saw greenknight's post and read whatever made you unvote and he voted anyway. What did you think that pointing that out would do? It would have been more likely to have an affect on acosmist or CryMeARiver who had not yet read his post.

What effect did you expect it to have anyway?

[triangle123]

I said "avoid drawing" attention, not actively deflecting.

The same idea still applies, though. If Zang was trying to avoid attention, he wouldn't have all his posts center around it. Your reasoning seems inconsistent.

The point was more to pressure Zang and get a reaction.

This feels forced to me. What exactly did you gain from his reaction? What is your opinion of his alignment right now? You unvoted him saying that you didn't see him making any "other scumtells" (implying that you still feel what you originally voted him for is a scumtell) but earlier you conceded that it very well could have been a "clash of styles". Even putting the semantic contradiction aside, if you were really reaction-fishing, why would you have admitted it could have just been a clash of styles rather than an actual scumtell?

Green's latest vote on Grey also feels somewhat contrived and weak.

I am not the biggest fan of T-Bone's unvote of Green, especially when his unvote is followed up by a paragraph showing that he's not satisfied with Green's explanation. I also don't particularly see what about Green's explanation made him suddenly seem town (or at least town-er) to T-Bone when he was just expanding on his initial reasoning rather than clarifying a misunderstanding or something of that nature. I'm happier with my vote on Green for now, but I find T-Bone as possible scum too. T-Bone, who do you think is scum right now?

[kortul]

Just came from the AntiAIDS concert of Elton John, Queen and Lambert - both tired and excited! So will be doing thorough reading tomorrow, going to sleep now. T-Bone is even more suspicious for me now, will explain tomorrow too.

And a quick thought - when GreyICE claimed scum check on Zang there were lots of speculations and most players thought this a joke/lie, but there were some doubts too. After the second claim (post 90) that Zang is town, only Korlash asked a question whether this still a real claim, or just the "show must go on". Iecerint comment is vague (don't understand whether you believe Grey or not), and Zang for some reason took it as "I assume GreyICE is admitting that the whole cop thing wasn't real.", as if the scenario where Grey could have a real town result on him isn't possible. Everyone else just ignored the second claim.

@Grey, what was the meaning of 90 after all - you just dropped the whole claim thing with a bad wording (ie you don't know Zang alignment after all), you claim the town check on Zang (then answer the rest of Korlash questions, since this is claim establishing two alignments), or you continue messing with everyone not telling anything definite?

[Iecerint]

Iecerint comment is vague (don't understand whether you believe Grey or not)

I assumed it was a joke on page 1. When he kept it going on page 2+ and added additional details, I assumed it was real.

He has now clarified that it was all a gambit.

[Korlash]

Im pretty sure thats not fence sitting, but taking a position on it.

taking what amounts to a 'fake' position does not excuse the fence sit mate. You start off the post with reasons he could be telling the truth, say you think he is lying, then suggest a play that relies on him telling the truth.

Why? I didn't think a lot about the situation itself, my point was that the people who are voting me are not scum or idiots for voting me.

I don't believe you would make a statement "if it were somebody else" without having a specific person that you were 'changing' (either yourself or ICE) so this feigned ignorance is suspect to me.

I don't really think Jason is that scummy. It is important for town to consider all possibilities and as long as he took a position, I fail to see how it is fence sitting. What he did might be seen as scummy combined with other reasoning but for now, it is not very scummy.

If I said "this vote of yours looks like a town post, BUT I THINK YOU ARE SCUM FOR IT, but we should lynch the person you are voting..." Would you fail to see how that is in and of itself a fence sit position?(hypothetically, the scenario I have illustrated is too vague to actually accuse one of fence sitting, but it's just an example so blah...) Taking a position means nothing if it's not a strong front. Saying you believe in one thing does not excuse comments that suggest you think the other way.

The fact is Jason's position in disbelieving ICE was not strong at all and it doesn't save him from the fence sitting he did over the claim. However, the explanation of "I was keeping an open mind to all possibilities" does. You are allowed to take up a stance on one side while still playing around on the other side providing you can still provide evidence that you are sticking to that stance. Jason can't (his 'calling it BS' comment proves that enough) but I'm still not seeing him as scum for this.

@Zang, Triangle was the only one to vote between my posts.

Why did you feel the need to comment on his vote at all? (2)

I am not the biggest fan of T-Bone's unvote of Green, especially when his unvote is followed up by a paragraph showing that he's not satisfied with Green's explanation. I also don't particularly see what about Green's explanation made him suddenly seem town (or at least town-er) to T-Bone when he was just expanding on his initial reasoning rather than clarifying a misunderstanding or something of that nature. I'm happier with my vote on Green for now, but I find T-Bone as possible scum too. T-Bone, who do you think is scum right now?

Yeah... I hate it when my hunches play out accordingly... Makes me think someone is trying to play me... *looks at Teirce* You're not trying to string me along with a siren's Song are you? huh? *shifty eyes* watching you...

Seriously though, less votes on green and Jason and more on T-Bone! woot woot!

[Tierce]

@Greyice: Posting a list of reads with no reasoning at all? Seriously?

If you were town you'd understand my reasoning.

Unless you're Icerint.

With the exception of Starbuck, your list conveniently boiled down to "I'll just call people picking up votes scum and those who aren't town". So colour me unimpressed by this statement.

Vote: GreyIce

What makes you think that GreyICE would make that list as scum? You were trying for a reaction from Zang and have this whole elaborate argument for it... but can't see GreyICE doing the same, and instead jump on it as if it makes him scum?

Hint: it's a reaction test, and you're failing it badly.

I said "avoid drawing" attention, not actively deflecting.

The same idea still applies, though. If Zang was trying to avoid attention, he wouldn't have all his posts center around it. Your reasoning seems inconsistent.

The point was more to pressure Zang and get a reaction.

This feels forced to me. What exactly did you gain from his reaction? What is your opinion of his alignment right now? You unvoted him saying that you didn't see him making any "other scumtells" (implying that you still feel what you originally voted him for is a scumtell) but earlier you conceded that it very well could have been a "clash of styles". Even putting the semantic contradiction aside, if you were really reaction-fishing, why would you have admitted it could have just been a clash of styles rather than an actual scumtell?

Green's latest vote on Grey also feels somewhat contrived and weak.

I am not the biggest fan of T-Bone's unvote of Green, especially when his unvote is followed up by a paragraph showing that he's not satisfied with Green's explanation. I also don't particularly see what about Green's explanation made him suddenly seem town (or at least town-er) to T-Bone when he was just expanding on his initial reasoning rather than clarifying a misunderstanding or something of that nature. I'm happier with my vote on Green for now, but I find T-Bone as possible scum too. T-Bone, who do you think is scum right now?

This post gave me deja vu--pretty much the same things that were going through my head while reading the latest page, up to and including the question to T-Bone. triangle gains townpoints.

The fact is Jason's position in disbelieving ICE was not strong at all and it doesn't save him from the fence sitting he did over the claim. However, the explanation of "I was keeping an open mind to all possibilities" does. You are allowed to take up a stance on one side while still playing around on the other side providing you can still provide evidence that you are sticking to that stance. Jason can't (his 'calling it BS' comment proves that enough) but I'm still not seeing him as scum for this.

Bleh. The possibilities were all pretty absurd and he ended it by poking at a 1v1. Still no likey.

Yeah... I hate it when my hunches play out accordingly... Makes me think someone is trying to play me... *looks at Teirce* You're not trying to string me along with a siren's Song are you? huh? *shifty eyes* watching you...

Silly Korlash, Ten meets no sirens. Plus, the green, singing shark in a dress was only trying to help.

[Starbuck]

The point was more to pressure Zang and get a reaction.

Zang had already been responding and reacting though. The pressure was already there. To me, it felt like you were grasping at straws for a means to put a case together when there really wasn't one.

What did you learn from this foray?

I said "avoid drawing" attention, not actively deflecting.

The same idea still applies, though. If Zang was trying to avoid attention, he wouldn't have all his posts center around it. Your reasoning seems inconsistent.

Agreed. He keeps flip flopping and a lot of his posts seem very forced.

[Acosmist]

@Grey, what was the meaning of 90 after all - you just dropped the whole claim thing with a bad wording (ie you don't know Zang alignment after all), you claim the town check on Zang (then answer the rest of Korlash questions, since this is claim establishing two alignments), or you continue messing with everyone not telling anything definite?

What is the possible town motivation of your persistence about this?

[Acosmist]

greenknight's 85 just makes me feel like he's taking himself further and further into a hole with each post he makes. It also seemed like greenknight had jumped onto this "Zang must be scum" idea and was trying to find a way to roll with it, but there's really nothing to incriminate Zang with. Not to mention how far off that green's gone into WIFOM territory.

Nice work getting us out of RVS, Grey, but how exactly am I scum? Because I didn't get worked up over what I thought was a joke?

1. WIFOM = scum?

2. Your question to GreyICE is disingenuous. Lots of people didn't get worked up and that didn't make them scum in his eyes. So...why did you pick that answer to anticipate from Grey?

[kortul]

Quick post from kindle.
@Acomist - don't ruin the question, i would like to heat Grey answer first (or the lack of it).

[Korlash]

Bleh. The possibilities were all pretty absurd and he ended it by poking at a 1v1. Still no likey.

I don't disagree he was being absurd, but I still don't see him as scum for it. I like T-Bone more...

Silly Korlash, Ten meets no sirens. Plus, the green, singing shark in a dress was only trying to help.

Yeah that's me, silly ol black spot... Ten does meet witches though, that's kinda like sirens if you don't think about it... And if you do think about it then they are pretty much the exact same... except for the gun thing... and the beardiness...

[greenknight]

What makes you think that GreyICE would make that list as scum? You were trying for a reaction from Zang and have this whole elaborate argument for it... but can't see GreyICE doing the same, and instead jump on it as if it makes him scum?

Because the list looks like he is just trying to agree with as many people as possible.

Hint: it's a reaction test, and you're failing it badly.

Oh, so you don't think a player who rode a joke claim through the RVS should post some actual reasoning once the joke is done?

Tell me, how am I "failing" this so-called reaction test?

[greenknight]

The point was more to pressure Zang and get a reaction.

Zang had already been responding and reacting though. The pressure was already there. To me, it felt like you were grasping at straws for a means to put a case together when there really wasn't one.

What case? I voted him based on one tell. I'd say it added pressure because it couldn't be dismissed as an "obvious joke."

What did you learn from this foray?

To be honest? As far as Zang's alignment goes, it was pretty null - he didn't make any arguments that indicated a clear town or scum perspective to me. At least I think I got a decent handle on Zang's approach to the game.

[greenknight]

Even putting the semantic contradiction aside, if you were really reaction-fishing, why would you have admitted it could have just been a clash of styles rather than an actual scumtell?

Because a bunch of people jumped in to disagree with me that it was a valid tell.