Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)


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Post Post #125 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:26 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Vote Count 1.3 - As of post 125

GreyICE (2) -Starbuck, Greenknight
Greenknight (4) - Acosmist, CryMeARiver, triangle123, Zang
jasont1981 (3) - Tierce, GreyICE, Iecerint
T-Bone (2) - kortul, Korlash

Not Voting (2) - jasonT1981, T-Bone

The Current deadline is July 17, 2012 at 10:00 am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-07-17 10:00:00).

With 13 active votes - 7 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

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Post Post #126 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:21 am

Post by Starbuck »

Acosmist wrote:
Starbuck wrote:greenknight's 85 just makes me feel like he's taking himself further and further into a hole with each post he makes. It also seemed like greenknight had jumped onto this "Zang must be scum" idea and was trying to find a way to roll with it, but there's really nothing to incriminate Zang with. Not to mention how far off that green's gone into WIFOM territory.

Nice work getting us out of RVS, Grey, but how exactly am I scum? Because I didn't get worked up over what I thought was a joke?


1. WIFOM = scum?

2. Your question to GreyICE is disingenuous. Lots of people didn't get worked up and that didn't make them scum in his eyes. So...why did you pick that answer to anticipate from Grey?

1. Sometimes, but also sometimes not. That's only a part of my suspicion of greenknight. He seemed (to me) to really be pushing hard on trying to get a case together on Zang with absolutely nothing to go on other than GreyICE's possible (now, real) joke/RVS exit. Even after GreyICE revealed that it wasn't true, he was still pushing it.

2. How is it not sincere? You say that lots of people didn't get worked up and that didn't make them scum, that's EXACTLY what I mean. Take a look back at GreyICE's 90. He said that he believes that I could possibly be scum, so I asked him why. It would do you well to read things thoroughly. I have noted that he has ignored my question. I also didn't pick an answer to anticipate. That was my stance on the entire thing, but now I do realize that it was a reaction test. Even still though, why would he pick someone like Zang that he has a blatant negative history with to do this test?


greenknight wrote:What case? I voted him based on one tell. I'd say it added pressure because it couldn't be dismissed as an "obvious joke."

I still don't believe you added any pressure with your vote because your reasoning had no backbone. In any case, quite a few people did dismiss it as an obvious joke. So you can not use "couldn't" in this scenario when it DID happen. Now you are just straight up denying things that happened and there's only 5 pages to read back through.

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Vote: greenknight
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Post Post #127 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:15 am

Post by T-Bone »

Korlash wrote:

Greenknight wrote:To me it's natural to get pissed off as town if someone fakeclaims against me, especially if it's someone I don't get along with in the first place, so I'd have read him going "you people are idiots or scum for believing that crap" as a likely town response.

On the other hand, if I was scum and got a claim against me I'd be worried even if the claim looked dubious because I would know the result was true. So yes, I do believe playing it passively to avoid drawing further attention and waiting for Grey to retract the claim to be a more likely scum response - and Zang has been in a purely reactive mode up to this point, only commenting on posts related to himself.


Except half the players in the game were voicing their doubts as to ICE's claim, it was made on page one, and the person making it has yet to back it up. No scum worth their mettle would freak out over that. In addition, I see more town going "You people are idiots" then I do scum...

Considering the only real discussion pertaining to the game so far has been the ICE-Zang thing... why is it weird that all of his posts have been responses to it?

I don't like T-Bones vote/unvote either. He explained it well but it's all wifom? Doesn't make sense being both mate.

And it seems my vote didn't count... Huh... I wonder if this ruins my self vote streak... Does it count? I'm gunna say it does... moving on then...

Vote: T-Bone


Going on a hunch.

Also ICE still not here... makes me sad... someone call in K-9 to track him down...

This
Korlash wrote:
Banna wrote:Mainly because I had the same thoughts as T-Bone going through my head when I read his first post with content.


Then you're missing the point. His 82 is in no way something coming from a townie...

Is
Korlash wrote:
Banna wrote:I'm referring to his post about greenknight.


I'm fairly certain you are talking about post 77 but for the record, when you're asked to clear something up like this try using post numbers. Both of his posts were about greenknight mate.

T-Bone wrote:Greenknight's explanation was good enough for me. My vote was to pressure him, not to try and go into a full head of steam lynch. I disagree with his reasons, but just because I disagree with him doesn't mean I have to think of him as scum.


A few things bothered me about your vote/unvote. For starters, you say Green's thing was the
only
thing that stood out to you in this early phase, yet you ran away from the vote after one single post. Not only that, but you 180 and seem to chastise the wagon you were just on. And on top of that, you seem to be in turn defending Greenknight himself. So the only thing that you thought worth commenting on in the early phase, you completely 180 on immediately... and you don't even have a strong belief in what green said because you say you disagree with him.

T-Bone wrote:Wow Triangle he just explained it. It's a good enough explanation for me.


This ^ has no basis coming from a townie. A second ago you were voting Green, but now you've stepped out to comment against someone who has a problem with his explanation. Why did you feel the need to single out Triangle here? Why are you calling out people voting the wagon you were just on, for seemingly no reason?

Pure
Korlash wrote:
T-Bone wrote:Because Triangle was the ONLY one to vote? Crazy I know!


Okay... Why did you even feel the need to comment on his vote at all?

Unadulterated
Korlash wrote:
Teirce wrote:Bleh. The possibilities were all pretty absurd and he ended it by poking at a 1v1. Still no likey.


I don't disagree he was being absurd, but I still don't see him as scum for it. I like T-Bone more...

Crap.

Just quickly lets go through this. First quote "it's just a hunch, vote T-Bone." Hasn't even stated a real reason for the vote.

2nd quote, apparently my explanation doesn't come from town, but he has not voiced WHY. WHY Korlash is one player not finding another player to be scum, scummy?

Third quote, my statements are pretty clear. Being wrong does not equal being scum, but Korlash doesn't seem to get it.

4th quote, trying to start some he said, she said crap. Why did you feel the need to comment on my vote? See, we could go in circles like that all day. This is one of those questions that scum can ask all day to pretend to scumhunt. Yes Korlash, you're scum.

5th quote...by the way for those keeping count Korlash has not explained why what I did was scummy, but now he's asking for votes on a lynch wagon just for the sake of getting a lynch.

Vote: Korlash


Just for the record. I think Greenknight's reasoning for finding Zang scummy is wrong. I don't think being wrong is scummy. Therefore being wrong doesn't equal being scum. I commented on Triangle because he voted after Greenknight made a post explaining his actions, and I felt nothing scummy coming from Greenknight. Acomist and CMAR voted well before my posts, so stop trying to misrepresent my attack.

Tl:DR version. Korlash is scum for, voting me without ever having a stated real reason other than a hunch, then proceeding to try and get more votes for me as if he made a case, to outright begging for votes. This reeks of scum trying to avoid the major wagons because he knows he won't get a lynch on me without a real push (which he won't make).

I'm not gonna beg for votes. I think people should really look at what Korlash is doing, not just with what I pointed out, but also his stances on the leading wagons. To me, it all looks like fake-scumhunting. Especially when it comes to the Jason wagon.

TBH the Jason vote looks pretty viable. More than Greenknight at this point.

Tierce wrote:CMAR is right--daycops are definitely not that prevalent in themes. Daycop
jokes
are much, much more common.
Do you want fries to go with that fence and water-testing? First you're saying that Grey has good reason to investigate Zang. Then that he can also be lying. Then you go on about a 1v1 that is OBVIOUS if Grey is telling the truth and makes no sense if he's not, so you're just testing how strong is the animosity between them. And end with a ridiculous lyncher notion, because everyone lynches off daycop claims on D1. :roll:

You're hardly inexperienced, jason. Why this post?
The protown behavior-reactions would be likely to be: 1) dismiss it as an obvious joke or 2)
ask
. You chose 3) sowing confusion.

Let's see if you understand what else is behind door #3:
UNVOTE: Iecerint
VOTE: jasonT1981


That's good posting, and if it weren't for people thinking bad reasoning = equals scum, this would probably be the leading wagon. So, why are people avoiding this wagon? It seems to have died down on page 4. The take away point from Tierce is that Jason took the opportunity presented by GreyIce to make the situation more confusing, and I agree that isn't protown. I'm not even sure how the Jason discussion became about fencesitting, because the issue I see with Jason is not the fencesitting, but in fact the stance he took on the GreyIce/Zang ordeal. According to #88, Korlash brought up the non-existant issue of fencesitting. Though maybe someone else brought it up before him, I'm not looking that deep. It bothers me that Jason is defending against fencesitting as opposed to what he was doing in regards to GreyIce/Zang that made him scummy.

#106 Zang. First, do you think that being wrong equals being scum? Second...ummm what case on me?

I don't like this Greenknight wagon at all. I don't understand why being wrong equals being scum. With that logic if Greenknight flips town, everyone on his wagon will be wrong, which means the 7 it takes to lynch will all be scum. Do you see why I have a problem with this reasoning? I could understand if Greenknight persisted with his faulty logic to try and get a lynch, but he hasn't. I think Greenknight is defending himself pretty well. Greenknight I'd like to see you move away from just defending yourself though.
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Post Post #128 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:20 am

Post by Korlash »

T-Bone wrote:Just quickly lets go through this. First quote "it's just a hunch, vote T-Bone." Hasn't even stated a real reason for the vote.

2nd quote, apparently my explanation doesn't come from town, but he has not voiced WHY. WHY Korlash is one player not finding another player to be scum, scummy?

Third quote, my statements are pretty clear. Being wrong does not equal being scum, but Korlash doesn't seem to get it.

4th quote, trying to start some he said, she said crap. Why did you feel the need to comment on my vote? See, we could go in circles like that all day. This is one of those questions that scum can ask all day to pretend to scumhunt. Yes Korlash, you're scum.

5th quote...by the way for those keeping count Korlash has not explained why what I did was scummy, but now he's asking for votes on a lynch wagon just for the sake of getting a lynch.


1- Saying my vote is based on a hunch is a promissory note of a reason with an addendum that there is something else at play. Yes, it is an unstated reason but it implies a reason exists that I will be held accountable for at a later time.

2 - I didn't voice why because I was still looking for a response from you. Notice you didn't post between my vote on you and this quote in question. (The second part of this seems like improper Engrish >< I'll respond to it if you can clarify what you mean)

3- Wow, my actual reason/explanation for the vote and your entire sum up of is is "Korlash doesn't get it". Very classy mate, unfortunately this type of thing doesn't work on me. If you can't find something legitimately 'bad' to talk about from a quote of mine, don't try to force one into existence please.

4- Pretending to scumhunt? Mate, You're going to need to take time off from work to try and defend that statement. And nice deflection, instead of answering my question you choose to make up a hypothetical situation in which I'm scum for asking it.

5 - Yes i did, in quote number 2 which you outright ignored. Then I asked you a question you refused to answer so I can't further elaborate on that one until you do.

So lets count, misrepresenting me as not explaining myself when in actuality I was waiting for you to post, then ignoring everything I posted saying I 'don't get it', then deflecting from something I asked and trying to paint it as a made up scum move, and finally outright lying in order to discredit me and insinuate scumminess that doesn't actually exist...

So all you people that mentioned how T-Bone looked like scum but the Green case was better... TA DA! Can we see some more votes now please?
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Post Post #129 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:47 am

Post by Korlash »

T-Bone wrote:Just for the record. I think Greenknight's reasoning for finding Zang scummy is wrong. I don't think being wrong is scummy. Therefore being wrong doesn't equal being scum. I commented on Triangle because he voted after Greenknight made a post explaining his actions, and I felt nothing scummy coming from Greenknight. Acomist and CMAR voted well before my posts, so stop trying to misrepresent my attack.


I get wrong =/= scummy, but this only means you are saying wrong = acceptable. For someone who say nothing else in the game worth commenting on, this is a pretty hard thing to accept.

Also, no one missrepresented you, if anything they missunderstood you but that's hardly the same thing. Resorting to trying to finger them for a wrongness is a far reaching over reaction mate. You said 'Triangle was the only one to vote' which is wrong, and someone mentioned that. What you meant was "Triangle was the only one to vote after me" so it's your own fault for being misunderstood.

Lastly, are you claiming your comment against Triangle was meant as an attack?

T-Bone wrote:Tl:DR version. Korlash is scum for, voting me without ever having a stated real reason other than a hunch, then proceeding to try and get more votes for me as if he made a case, to outright begging for votes. This reeks of scum trying to avoid the major wagons because he knows he won't get a lynch on me without a real push (which he won't make).


Avoid the major wagons? Last time I checked I was heavily into a lot of that discussion regardless of where my vote was. That's hardly avoiding them. And begging for votes on you? You've been more or less a brick wall I've been trying to talk to. I've spent most of this game waiting for you to respond to something I asked you or commented towards you. I think it's well within my right to ask the plethora of people who have claimed they also think you 'scummy' to vote in an attempt to get you more interested.

(Also, pssst... The only 'major wagon' you've been 'involved in' was the one where you simply made a fake vote and then ran away... People in glass houses mate... I forget the rest but it ends with me laughing and a tear welling up in your eye... I think it's for the best I forget it, eh?)

T-Bone wrote:I'm not gonna beg for votes. I think people should really look at what Korlash is doing, not just with what I pointed out, but also his stances on the leading wagons. To me, it all looks like fake-scumhunting. Especially when it comes to the Jason wagon.


Actually this could be legitimate. I could see how some people might get the wrong idea when looking at my stuff on Jason, I welcome the chance to go into it more if people feel the need for me to. You might want to cool it with the 'fake scumhunting' though mate, it's not going to end well for you. This post off yours is proof enough my 'scumhunting' bore fruits.

T-Bone wrote:That's good posting, and if it weren't for people thinking bad reasoning = equals scum, this would probably be the leading wagon. So, why are people avoiding this wagon? It seems to have died down on page 4. The take away point from Tierce is that Jason took the opportunity presented by GreyIce to make the situation more confusing, and I agree that isn't protown. I'm not even sure how the Jason discussion became about fencesitting, because the issue I see with Jason is not the fencesitting, but in fact the stance he took on the GreyIce/Zang ordeal. According to #88, Korlash brought up the non-existant issue of fencesitting. Though maybe someone else brought it up before him, I'm not looking that deep. It bothers me that Jason is defending against fencesitting as opposed to what he was doing in regards to GreyIce/Zang that made him scummy.


Excuse me for a moment... *walks outside* *laughter is heard echoing through the halls*

Ok, So you haven't actually looked into the Jason wagon at all. You're simply backing it so you can avoid being on Green. From my point of view, Green is likely town so scum wouldn't want to rush onto that sinking ship, it's too early in the game to speed out a mislynch. Pushing Jason is the far safer path, and you even manage to avoid voting him. Pretty clever, but ultimately damning.

See if you had been paying attention to the Jason wagon you would know it was Teirce that brought up the fence sitting and that at this point, it's pretty much the only thing on him. That is why the wagon died down, because the whole 'case' was simply 'a fence sit on the ICE/Zang' ordeal which isn't that scummy. You would also know the fence sit was about the Zang/ICe ordeal, which you just said was the best thing about his wagon... So you've just gone in a circle saying you don't like the biggest point against him, but you think the best thing against him is the (our words) fence sitting...

Lastly, You use it to throw more misinformation at me. Blaming me for something you call bad (to make me look worse) but ultimately was the same thing you called good (makes you look worse).

This whole thing is fake, Jason is town (90% sure of it) and you're scum (95% sure of it).

Here, answer this "What was Jason's stance that he took on the GreyIce/Zang ordeal, and why is it bad (scummy)?" Now, you're stuck trying to answer that in such a way that what you say isn't equatable to 'he fence sat'... Good luck mate, this is your one chance to prove all this you just posted wasn't fake... and I have no faith you're going to be able to do it.
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Post Post #130 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:50 am

Post by Korlash »

Starbuck wrote:1. Sometimes, but also sometimes not. That's only a part of my suspicion of greenknight. He seemed (to me) to really be pushing hard on trying to get a case together on Zang with absolutely nothing to go on other than GreyICE's possible (now, real) joke/RVS exit. Even after GreyICE revealed that it wasn't true, he was still pushing it.


Wait, what? ICE revealed it 'wasn't true' in post 90, Green unvoted in his next post...

WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE VOTING GREEN?!?!?!?!?!?!

*hangs head in hands*

Teirce... I need you... Explain to them...
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Post Post #131 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:35 am

Post by kortul »

First of all, thanks for the advices as to the best point where to start watching the series. Working on obtaining at least the first few episodes of the ninth doctor.

Back to the game. So far i believe my vote is in the right place. I find suspicious the following words of
T-Bone
, the bolded part is done
from scum perspective
:
T-Bone wrote:Your vote on Zang is all WIFOM because there is no 'proper' way to react.
If GreyICE did it to me, I'd blow it off, because freaking out attracts attention. But then of course I could freak out because that's the bvious thing to do and scum won't do that
...again etc.etc.etc.


I am confused by logic of greenknight, still trying to get a better read on him, not sure whether he is silly scum or illogical town.
greenknight wrote:With the exception of Starbuck, your list conveniently boiled down to "I'll just call people picking up votes scum and those who aren't town". So colour me unimpressed by this statement.

Vote: GreyIce
greenknight
, can you elaborate on this? Scum for GreyICE were JasonT1981, Greenknight and Starbuck. I fail to see the connection, since at the moment of Grey post you had 3 votes on you, jasont1981 had 1 vote, Starbuck had no votes. Some other players had 2 and 3 votes on them. And another question - what is the reason for your vote on Grey?


Also, i noticed that several people misread jasonT1981 post 63 warning to GreyICE:
jasonT1981 wrote:GrayICE are you prepared to go into a 1vs1 with Zang day 1... IE we lynch him and he flips town, we lynch you tomorrow for being proven to be lying?
This obviously is based on the belief that Grey claim is false, since 1vs1 scenario described assumes Zang flipping town, and that is possible only if Grey were lying. And that is consistent with his "I don't believe GrayICE". What i don't like about jason is that he is in a turtle position right now - no suspects, no questions, no thoughts (except for that scenarios), no opinions/votes. That will hardly nail any scum.
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Post Post #132 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:16 pm

Post by greenknight »

Here's the Greyice list.

GreyICE wrote:Zang is actually town folks. What can I say :P Hate his guts still.

It therefore follows that Iecerint is town.

Tierce is town because she's awesome again, although I have some misgivings.

Korlash gets to be town today, because he amuses me, even if he's not half as funny as he thinks he is.

This dude though, this dude is not town at all.

Vote: JasonT1981


Acosmist is town, probable other scum is Greenknight and Starbuck.


First, he calls Zang town. Pretty safe move since people already started attacking me at that point, so it's unlikely that there will be further momentum against Zang after he retracts his claim.

Next we have a bunch of empty town tells. Note that none of the people he calls town here are under suspicion at this point, so there isn't any actual need to defend them. By calling them town, he can attempt to gain town points with them without losing much maneuvering room. And by not giving any actual reasons for them being town, he leaves maximum flexibility to reverse his stance and attack them later if needed. The disclaimer "She's awesome, although I have some misgivings" regarding Tierce is particularly bad. Especially since Greyice then proceeds to follow her vote on Jason with no other explanation. So presumably if the Jason wagon goes bad, he should have trusted his "misgivings" and it's all Tierce's fault really.

Then calls me scum - trying to push another likely wagon without actually being on it. So if I happen to get quicklynched or something, he avoids any blame.

I've no idea why he called Starbuck scum, but note this is apparently another player he has some meta with.

So in summary, this post consists of attempts to score cheap town points, while pushing wagons without actually posting meaningful content or taking any responsibility for anything. Pretty scummy if you ask me.
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Post Post #133 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:23 pm

Post by greenknight »

Misquote deleted per request ...
Last edited by MagnaofIllusion on Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #134 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:32 pm

Post by greenknight »

Mod, delete the duplicate post #133 please.
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Post Post #135 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:39 pm

Post by T-Bone »

But you STILL haven't made a case Korlash. Why? because it's much easier to make up shit later. Reminds me of something DGB (I think) has in her sig, "it takes a second to claim a role but much more time to fabricate one" (or something like that). Same philosophy applies here. But I'm not going to waste too much more time with this. I want people to read you and your pretend scumhunting for themselves. "Promising" to have a case is NOT good enough for town. But it's pretty great for scum.

@Kortul that quote is out of context. I along with the other quote before it was demonstrating why Greenknight is wrong. It has nothing to do with me trying to tell you what my meta is. (Which would be a scum thing I agree) I was demonstrating the WIFOM circles that a player can put themselves through. Notice how I say "Oh if this happened to me I would react like this" but you know that about yourself so you react differently, but you know people will call you for it so you don't react differently, but then people will expect it...etc.etc.etc." right fucking before it. Learn to read.

And yes Kortul that Jason quote is scummy because Jason is asking in a roundabout way..."can we lynch GreyIce if Zang flips town?" Where's the town motivation in that?
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Post Post #136 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:40 pm

Post by Korlash »

green wrote:Next we have a bunch of empty town tells. Note that none of the people he calls town here are under suspicion at this point, so there isn't any actual need to defend them. By calling them town, he can attempt to gain town points with them without losing much maneuvering room. And by not giving any actual reasons for them being town, he leaves maximum flexibility to reverse his stance and attack them later if needed. The disclaimer "She's awesome, although I have some misgivings" regarding Tierce is particularly bad. Especially since Greyice then proceeds to follow her vote on Jason with no other explanation. So presumably if the Jason wagon goes bad, he should have trusted his "misgivings" and it's all Tierce's fault really.


Calling someone town =/= defending them. Calling people town 'might' net you town points from them but it also cements your reads on them early on. It's a risk for scum to do it, not unheard of, but hardly likely to be the case. Your point about Teirce is fine enough. And I caution you on presuming stuff.
maybe
, that would happen, but until it does it's just guesswork. You can voice stuff like that, but you shouldn't put any weight into it without other evidence to support your theory.

green wrote:Then calls me scum - trying to push another likely wagon without actually being on it. So if I happen to get quicklynched or something, he avoids any blame.


Ehh... no, see T-Bone for what that looks like. Just calling you possible scum doesn't really push your wagon. You can say it sets him up to hop onto your wagon at a future point, but that's about it.

green wrote:So in summary, this post consists of attempts to score cheap town points, while pushing wagons without actually posting meaningful content or taking any responsibility for anything. Pretty scummy if you ask me.


... no... You should join me on the T-Bone wagon mate... There is someone scummy if you ask me...
It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.

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Post Post #137 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:46 pm

Post by Korlash »

T-Bone wrote:But you STILL haven't made a case Korlash. Why? because it's much easier to make up shit later. Reminds me of something DGB (I think) has in her sig, "it takes a second to claim a role but much more time to fabricate one" (or something like that). Same philosophy applies here. But I'm not going to waste too much more time with this. I want people to read you and your pretend scumhunting for themselves. "Promising" to have a case is NOT good enough for town. But it's pretty great for scum.


Dude, don't throw the goddess' name at me... (it's paraphrasing takes seconds, fabricating takes an eternity btw... geeze...)

I did 'make a case' (provided explanations/reasons were my words for it but it's the same vernacular) I specifically told you you ignored them. Which you just did again. You need the noose
now
...

I gave you a full on response to your vote and you ignore that entirely. You do know my response to your vote counts as a case all on it's own right? I outlined four separate scummy things you did...
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Post Post #138 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:36 pm

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greenknight wrote:Because a bunch of people jumped in to disagree with me that it was a valid tell.


Right, but you stated that the primary reason for your vote was to pressure Zang and gain a reaction from him with which you can draw information. If that's the case, however, you wouldn't have conceded when people started accusing your argument of being flawed because you would have wanted to milk as much of Zang's reaction as possible. You admitted that it could just be a "clash of styles", which would essentially break any reaction test you could want to make, but you kept your vote on him, indicating that the main reason for your vote was not to serve as a reaction test.

Green's case on GreyICE is weak and equally forced.

greenknight wrote:Next we have a bunch of empty town tells. Note that none of the people he calls town here are under suspicion at this point, so there isn't any actual need to defend them. By calling them town, he can attempt to gain town points with them without losing much maneuvering room. And by not giving any actual reasons for them being town, he leaves maximum flexibility to reverse his stance and attack them later if needed.


Listing town reads is not even remotely close to being scummy. It's a null tell; in most cases, it doesn't give an indication towards either alignment.

greenknight wrote:Especially since Greyice then proceeds to follow her vote on Jason with no other explanation. So presumably if the Jason wagon goes bad, he should have trusted his "misgivings" and it's all Tierce's fault really.


This too is particularly weak. Grey didn't say anything to suggest his vote on Jason is a sheep of Tierce's reasoning or that he's blindly following her and entrusting his vote to whatever reasoning she gives without thinking about it. He said Tierce is probably town although he has some misgivings. He also said Jason is scum and voted for him. You're reaching, and it doesn't seem unintentional.

T-Bone's more recent posts are bothering me. I don't like the way he's bordering on misrepresentation with some of his statements, such as:

T-Bone wrote:by the way for those keeping count Korlash has not explained why what I did was scummy, but now he's asking for votes on a lynch wagon just for the sake of getting a lynch.


as well as his misrepresentation of the wagon on Green:

T-Bone wrote:I don't understand why being wrong equals being scum.


The case on Green is not because he's wrong, and his strange simplification of it as such makes me uneasy.
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Post Post #139 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:30 pm

Post by GreyICE »

Starbuck wrote:1. Sometimes, but also sometimes not. That's only a part of my suspicion of greenknight. He seemed (to me) to really be pushing hard on trying to get a case together on Zang with absolutely nothing to go on other than GreyICE's possible (now, real) joke/RVS exit. Even after GreyICE revealed that it wasn't true, he was still pushing it.

2. How is it not sincere? You say that lots of people didn't get worked up and that didn't make them scum, that's EXACTLY what I mean. Take a look back at GreyICE's 90. He said that he believes that I could possibly be scum, so I asked him why. It would do you well to read things thoroughly. I have noted that he has ignored my question. I also didn't pick an answer to anticipate. That was my stance on the entire thing, but now I do realize that it was a reaction test. Even still though, why would he pick someone like Zang that he has a blatant negative history with to do this test?




greenknight wrote:What case? I voted him based on one tell. I'd say it added pressure because it couldn't be dismissed as an "obvious joke."

I still don't believe you added any pressure with your vote because your reasoning had no backbone. In any case, quite a few people did dismiss it as an obvious joke. So you can not use "couldn't" in this scenario when it DID happen. Now you are just straight up denying things that happened and there's only 5 pages to read back through.



HEY STARBUCK

YOU'RE TERRIBLE SCUM

DISCUSS
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Post Post #140 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:50 pm

Post by Starbuck »

GreyICE wrote:
Starbuck wrote:1. Sometimes, but also sometimes not. That's only a part of my suspicion of greenknight. He seemed (to me) to really be pushing hard on trying to get a case together on Zang with absolutely nothing to go on other than GreyICE's possible (now, real) joke/RVS exit. Even after GreyICE revealed that it wasn't true, he was still pushing it.

2. How is it not sincere? You say that lots of people didn't get worked up and that didn't make them scum, that's EXACTLY what I mean. Take a look back at GreyICE's 90. He said that he believes that I could possibly be scum, so I asked him why. It would do you well to read things thoroughly. I have noted that he has ignored my question. I also didn't pick an answer to anticipate. That was my stance on the entire thing, but now I do realize that it was a reaction test. Even still though, why would he pick someone like Zang that he has a blatant negative history with to do this test?




greenknight wrote:What case? I voted him based on one tell. I'd say it added pressure because it couldn't be dismissed as an "obvious joke."

I still don't believe you added any pressure with your vote because your reasoning had no backbone. In any case, quite a few people did dismiss it as an obvious joke. So you can not use "couldn't" in this scenario when it DID happen. Now you are just straight up denying things that happened and there's only 5 pages to read back through.



HEY STARBUCK

YOU'RE TERRIBLE SCUM

DISCUSS


Hey, I'm not scum. Try again.

You always read me wrong anyways.
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Post Post #141 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:30 pm

Post by Acosmist »

I hate walls and I am not contributing to their existence.

post 126:

1. WIFOM is bad logic. You admit it's not necessarily scummy (is the correlation even above 0?). So, why even mention it? it's a throwaway line, and a useless thing to say. Unless it bears on alignment, it's irrelevant.

2. If you're going to feed GreyICE an answer that is demonstrably wrong, why bother? My point stands. "Why am I scummy? Because I did X?" Well, lots of people did X and GreyICE had a different opinion of them, so, no, it CAN'T be that he was taking X (not getting worked up) to indicate scuminess. You had to know that. I'm constructively saying you did. So, yep, that was disingenuous.

post 127:

Tone seems way off. The way that quote wall was broken up rubbed me the wrong way entirely. Also, lol talking about my random vote on greenknight, the FIRST VOTE ON HIM, as an attempted "TU QUOQUE!"

kortul:

yo, GreyICE posted, my question stands.
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Post Post #142 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:07 pm

Post by kortul »

T-Bone wrote:@Kortul that quote is out of context. I along with the other quote before it was demonstrating why Greenknight is wrong. It has nothing to do with me trying to tell you what my meta is. (Which would be a scum thing I agree) I was demonstrating the WIFOM circles that a player can put themselves through.
Ok, let's read with context. Below is full quote:
T-Bone wrote:However Greenknight all you're doing is inviting WIFOM. "Oh if this happened to me I would react like this" but you know that about yourself so you react differently, but you know people will call you for it so you don't react differently, but then people will expect it...etc.etc.etc. Your vote on Zang is all WIFOM because there is no 'proper' way to react.
If GreyICE did it to me, I'd blow it off, because freaking out attracts attention. But then of course I could freak out because that's the bvious thing to do and scum won't do that
...again etc.etc.etc.
You said that green is inviting WIFOM, then explained how, said that there's no proper way to react, and told us what would you do in such situation to demonstrate WIFOM. And it was done from scum perspective, that's how i read it. There's no "if i were scum" clause before your example.

T-Bone wrote:And yes Kortul that Jason quote is scummy because Jason is asking in a roundabout way..."can we lynch GreyIce if Zang flips town?" Where's the town motivation in that?
Strange interpretation. He is asking whether Grey is ready to be lynched, and as i said before, i can see scum motivations here mostly if Grey or Zang are scum.

@Acomist - ok, let's assume he decided not to answer. Grey first post, whether he did it intentionally or it was just a result of his style, indeed was a good reaction test. But to correctly interpret the reactions, it is necessary to know at least Zang alignment, that's why i asked the question. For some reason most of the players took the sequence of "I'm a daycop, I can't read his useless ass, so guess what I did?" followed later by "Zang is actually town folks" as a confirmation that the whole Grey initial post was a joke or gambit, and i don't know how they came to that conclusion. Looking at his later posts i suspect that i am the only one not familiar with his style, so maybe they are right. Then i'll return to analysis if Zang alignment will become known one day.
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Post Post #143 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:14 pm

Post by Tierce »

Post tonight, zoo day today.
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Post Post #144 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:27 pm

Post by kortul »

@
greenknight
- i still don't follow your logic. Why do you think that just saying "X is town" means defending X and/or trying to get towncred from X? Or let me ask it this way - imagine GreyICE did exactly the same post, only last sentence is "Greenknight is town, probable other scum is Acosmist and Starbuck." Would you give him towncred for this and vote someone else? If someone else, who would it be (ie who else do you think is scum)?

@
Acosmist
- your vote is on green from RVS post, you asked him a question but didn't follow it, and didn't comment on him after that either. What do you think about greenknight now?
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Post Post #145 (ISO) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:54 pm

Post by Korlash »

Why do I not see any T-Bone votes on this page? Come on people, *taps watch* I don't have a lot of time here...

I literally don't... O.O
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Post Post #146 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:57 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

CryMeARiver has been prodded.

jasonT1981 will be prodded if he does not post by this time Tuesday morning.
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Post Post #147 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:32 am

Post by Iecerint »

Sorry for low activity -- busy with grant-writing this weekend.

Post coming tomorrow -- I need to sit down and read some of these longer posts in more detail.
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Post Post #148 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:49 am

Post by Zang »

Greenknight- Please respond to my question in post 111. I have already asked twice and you have failed to respond to me. This is scummy.

Korlash wrote:I don't believe you would make a statement "if it were somebody else" without having a specific person that you were 'changing' (either yourself or ICE) so this feigned ignorance is suspect to me.


Why? Why would I have a specific person in mind? I was trying to show greenknight that in any situation, it is not unreasonable to vote. The specific person should not matter at all.

Korlash wrote:If I said "this vote of yours looks like a town post, BUT I THINK YOU ARE SCUM FOR IT, but we should lynch the person you are voting..." Would you fail to see how that is in and of itself a fence sit position?(hypothetically, the scenario I have illustrated is too vague to actually accuse one of fence sitting, but it's just an example so blah...) Taking a position means nothing if it's not a strong front. Saying you believe in one thing does not excuse comments that suggest you think the other way.


The whole scum motivation for fence sitting is to avoid taking a stance on something so that they can not be held responsible for it later. The fact that he took a position on it, even if it is not a strong one, ruins the whole scum motivation for it. That's why to me it looks to me more like town exploring the possibilities than scum fence sitting.

How is your opinion on Jason not fencesitting according to you? In that post alone, you say that he is fencesitting, then you say that he could be just exploring the possibilities, but then you say that he isn't and then you say that he isn't scum.

T-Bone wrote:#106 Zang. First, do you think that being wrong equals being scum? Second...ummm what case on me?


Being wrong is not scummy. Greenknight is scummy for his insistence on his wrong reasoning.

If he unvoted me a few posts later and admitted that his reasoning was bad or that it didn't apply in this case, then I would have even seen that as a town tell. But he didn't do that and even when it was clear to everyone else that his reasoning was bad, he kept trying to push his case on me. Even after he unvoted me, he still defends his reasoning. This is scummy.

The case is that your post where you unvoted greenknight is scum motivated.

Korlash wrote:1- Saying my vote is based on a hunch is a promissory note of a reason with an addendum that there is something else at play. Yes, it is an unstated reason but it implies a reason exists that I will be held accountable for at a later time.


How can you be held accountable for reasoning that you have not stated? Why not just post the reasoning with your vote?

greenknight wrote:Then calls me scum - trying to push another likely wagon without actually being on it. So if I happen to get quicklynched or something, he avoids any blame.


How does that push your wagon? Why would he be concerned about not quicklynching you but not be concerned about that when he voted for jason?
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Post Post #149 (ISO) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:30 am

Post by jasonT1981 »

Im back. catching up after dinner
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