Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[Starbuck]

You said that "people actually consider it acceptable" which people consider it acceptable? Which players in this game said that they found it acceptable?

Also, you may want to re-read Triangle's post. He didn't say it was acceptable. He said it was a null-tell. Stop changing people's words to fit your own agenda.

[greenknight]

1. You said you did things to keep pressure on Zang, pressure was already on him, what else were you going to add to it?

Yes, there were 3 votes on zang at the time but all he was saying is "Grey's obviously lying", I felt adding a vote that was NOT based on grey's claim being true would result in a more useful response.

2. You tried your best to roll with that wagon until you absolutely couldn't

I was trying to at least get something out of the investigation, and besides it took me a while to decide that the original tell I had on zang was wrong. I'm not the sort of person to immediately assume that I am wrong just because people tell me I am, especially not in a mafia game.

3. You've only stated suspicion of Zang (because of GreyICE's "claim"), myself (because I find you suspicious), and GreyICE (because he listed you as scum). Can you say OMGUS six times fast? Because that's exactly what you are doing.

Now you are just making up reasons: I never believed Grey. You're suspicious not because you are accusing me but because of the way you're going about it. Greyice is suspicious not because he listed me but because of his reluctance to explain any reads in the early game. I have quite clearly stated all these already. Also, OMGUS is not a scum tell.

4. The aid that you and T-Bone seem to be giving each other is giving me warning bells. I'm going to safely say that if one of you flips scum than the other might as well.

Right, because it's common practice for scum to mutually openly defend each other on day 1... And you claim I am reaching.

Also, you may want to re-read Triangle's post. He didn't say it was acceptable. He said it was a null-tell. Stop changing people's words to fit your own agenda.

X behaviour is null tell == you don't go after people for this behaviour == it's acceptable. Acceptable pretty much DOES mean null tell.

[Acosmist]

I will post more when it doesn't take 5 minutes to load a new tab (virus).

[Starbuck]

With nothing else going on in the game and nothing else to incriminate Zang, how can you say that you were adding a vote that wasn't based on Grey's claim being true? The whole reason suspicion was placed on Zang was because of that claim, and thus the whole reason behind your case.

I'm making things up? You NEVER believed Grey? That's a load of bollocks. So you still don't give decent cases on myself or Grey.

That's your opinion, I think it all depends on the situation when it comes to OMGUS. The same as WIFOM. But you have to admit that other than Zang, you don't have any suspicion on anyone else except others who have displayed suspicion of you. That is a fact.

On the T-Bone/you link, I am noting something that I feel needs to be noted. That's not reaching, that's making an observation. It's a feeling that I have and it should be explored. If I'm wrong that's fine, but I'm definitely going to lay it on the table.

You have a pretty wonky definition of acceptable.

[triangle123]

1) That's a strawman argument, I never claimed it was infallible.

I never said anything to insinuate you said it was infallible; in fact, I said the opposite. My point with that statement was that you admitted the tell was wrong but did not unvote. And before you jump on me with some claim that I'm saying you're scum solely because you didn't unvote or something, that statement needs to be taken in context with the paragraph I wrote it in.

2) Your arguments are inconsistent. First I'm scummy because I didn't keep pushing, now I'm scummy because I didn't unvote immediately? What would be a town tell then?

Neither of those are actually things I have said, and the misrepresentation here is getting a little ridiculous. You said something early about how you didn't keep pushing because it was a pressure/reaction test, and I gave an argument that included the fact that you didn't unvote immediately and showed that it could not have been a pressure/reaction test. A town tell in these circumstances would either having a genuine case on someone or performing a genuine reaction test.

3) Related to the above, WHY is T-bone's vote/unvote of me scummy?

This is what I originally posted:

I am not the biggest fan of T-Bone's unvote of Green, especially when his unvote is followed up by a paragraph showing that he's not satisfied with Green's explanation. I also don't particularly see what about Green's explanation made him suddenly seem town (or at least town-er) to T-Bone when he was just expanding on his initial reasoning rather than clarifying a misunderstanding or something of that nature.

X behaviour is null tell == you don't go after people for this behaviour == it's acceptable. Acceptable pretty much DOES mean null tell.

This is most certainly a stretch, but I won't bother arguing semantics. It's a waste of time and clutters the thread needlessly. Incidentally, though, and unrelated to my statement that it's a null tell, I do think listing town reads are okay.

I need to re-read and re-think Jason.

[T-Bone]

Okay. Catch-up time. From page 6...

@Acomist 141 - I mentioned nothing about your vote, other then the entire bandwgaon is bad. As a matter of fact your vote is from RVS and you've done nothing to even support your vote. Content to sit on a lynch hoping it'll go through? Actually just a quick look through your ISO...yea you don't seem to think Greenknight is scum at all but you're voting for him. The first time you outright say Green is scum is #194, a few pages later. This is the same reason I have a problem with Korlash, voting without backing it up, and then acting like you have a reason. I say this as evident from your 141 where you tell GK "My point stands". You never made a point in the first place.

Really considering changing my vote here. Need to see what Korlash has done in the meantime. I'm interested as to what Korlash thinks about you though.

I see that Jason is 'fencesitting' is still being discussed at this point. But he wasn't! Not at all! He clearly took a position on the GreyICE/Zang thing by voting Zang. He also decided to add to the confusion too. Now that's scummy. But the 'fencesitting' case is 1000% WRONG! I'm gonna freak if it continues to be discussed. Just to quote myself real quick Jason "took the opportunity presented by GreyICE not to help the situation but to make it more confusing". Since then I feel Jason's posting has been more townie, but that could be as a result of being voted by a few people. I reserve my judgement.

Why is GreyIce posting in Haikus? O.O (page 8)

Appearance of Acomist again, someone I am liking less and less, especially looking at his posts in context. So Acomist you think that the two leading wagons are both scum? You know, I JUST did that in another game and rode that to LyLo, and that is sending alarm bells off to me now. It's not the exact same situation but the similarities makes me uneasy.

@Starbuck 226 - But he backed off! He didn't really stretch to make a case of it because everyone went "lolol you're wrong" and he went "yea maybe alright". He conceeded the point on Zang and moved to Greyice long ago. Do you believe his reasons for voting Greyice is also scummy?

Jason's sudden change of heart on Greyice makes me feel it's disingenuous, and that he did it to get the heat off of him rather than because he suddenly reads Greyice as town.

My stance on Triangle, since people want it. I didn't like his vote because I felt Greenknight explained himself sufficiently and thought that would be obvious to everyone. Apparently that's not the case. The thing I don't like now is that Triangle is keeping the possibility of switching over to me alive. Keeping the justification open incase my wagon picks up steam. I find that to be a little scummy.

Still don't like Korlash's 'case' on me, but there's nothing further that can be explored there right now.

However, based on what I cited about Acomist earlier, I'm seeing a link between him and Jason. He completely avoids the Jason issue when pressured by GreyIce, but apparently holds the belief that both Greenknight and Jason, the two leading wagons are scum. This is an odd stance to take, because it is highly improbable we've managed to nail two scum one day 1. And I just did that in my previous game...while I won't go into details, it was a case where one wagon was on my scumbuddy and the other on a townie, and I spent my day saying they were both scum and then bussed my buddy, and was able to ride that town credit to LyLo. I don't want to go so far as to say "if Jason/Greenknight flip scum, then Acomist is scum", but it's something that is weighing heavy on my mind right now.

I have to

unvote Vote: Acomist

because it's too much of a coincidence for me. Irregardless of Jason's and Greenknight's alignment, this stance on the leading wagon screams scum to me.

Anyone wish to offer their thoughts on Acomist?

[Iecerint]

Starbuck, you accepted my point on you, apologized/explained the failure to comment on/mention Jason...and then continued the same pattern of ignoring Jason while kinda sidelining for Greenknight....

Do you think Jason is scum, or town, or are you indifferent?

[Korlash]

Hey all, sorry I've been awol. Preparing for my trip and focusing in other game.

Ok so long story short... I'm going V/la for a family reunion that will last nearly two weeks and I plan on not being online for any of it... so... Odds are I won't be with you guys very much longer.

I want to make sure to get this posted while I'm here:

Scum:
T-Bone (Not only very obviously scum, but the overall best lynch for our day one)
Zang (His reactions towards the 't-bone case', the irksome post and his reaction to it, his push of green)
Jason (His reaction actually suggesting the 'fence sit' was scum motivated, Zang connections)

Maybe scum:
Triangle (T-Bone connections, push on green while still keeping t-bone as potential possibility.)

Intentional Null: (Has done something that gives me a 'null' reading)
Crymeariver
Banna (Iecerint)
Kortul

Unintentional Null: (Has done nothing to give me a read, and thus defaults to null)
Acosmist
Starbuck

Town:
ICE (of the grey variety)
Teirce
Greenknight

If I have time I'll do more but I'm dead tired, have things to pack, and other things coming up... so... We'll see... This is where I stand right now... I can only say that at this juncture our best move is to lynch T-Bone. Highest chance of flipping scum, huge links all over the place for increased information, and well... it would make me happy, which is just swell...

[Iecerint]

Zang is confirmed town (unless that was a gambit, too), shenanigans notwithstanding.

[Iecerint]

Also, given your read on Green and how you're handling that elsewhere, why are you null on Starbuck? O.o

[T-Bone]

Posts like that is why we should lynch Korlash.

I'd like some thoughts on Acomist though.

[Starbuck]

Starbuck, you accepted my point on you, apologized/explained the failure to comment on/mention Jason...and then continued the same pattern of ignoring Jason while kinda sidelining for Greenknight....

Do you think Jason is scum, or town, or are you indifferent?

As I said, I need to re-read that. I caught up, went to karaoke, and am now watching the Season 2 finale of Doctor Who before I go to bed. Figured I'd do that re-read in the morning when I have a bit of a clearer mind.

[Korlash]

Zang is confirmed town (unless that was a gambit, too), shenanigans notwithstanding.

Explain, what did I miss? seriously? Now I feel dumb...

Also, given your read on Green and how you're handling that elsewhere, why are you null on Starbuck? O.o

Pushing of green isn't in and of itself a scum trait, he wouldn't be town if only scum pushed him. It's doing that in conjunction with other things. Thus, no other things, star is simply null.

Posts like that is why we should lynch Korlash.

And the ones where you ignore everything I brought up against you and all the explanations I ask of you... those are reasons we should lynch you.

[Korlash]

You're not talking about ICE's post 90 are you Banna? His 242 suggests he wasn't claiming to have information suggesting Zang is town, i.e. daycop with innocent, otherwise zang would be more than just 'prob town'.

[T-Bone]

.As I explained in my last post, nothing further can be explored there. I'm not trying to change your mind, and I'm not wasting everyone else's time with your shit. When you have good reasons for wanting my lynch other than being butthurt that I won't give you the time of day, call me. I honestly don't even remember why you want me lynched because all you ever say is "we should lynch Bone now." It's getting old.

[kortul]

@

triangle

- can you answer my question in 175? It is one of the points why i am voting T-Bone, i am reassessing it and want to make sure my understanding of his post is correct.

@

Iecrint

, after Grey made his second claim at post 90, i made a comment. You answered it with:

Iecerint comment is vague (don't understand whether you believe Grey or not)

I assumed it was a joke on page 1. When he kept it going on page 2+ and added additional details, I assumed it was real.

He has now clarified that it was all a gambit.

So what do you mean now by Zang being a confirmed town then?

@

Grey

, what prompted you to think that i were pushing greenknight? I don't think he is scum, i have problems understanding his logic, and asked him questions to understand him better. I don't agree with most of his views on what is and what isn't scummy, but that doesn't make him scum and so far he is consistent with his claimed beliefs. If he is scum, sooner or later he will be caught within his own explanations, and if he is town - he gives us view from a different angle and based on his own experience. As for Jason - i don't think him scummy for what others are attacking him, i just don't like his behavior (and explained why already). He opened just a bit attacking you, but now is mostly back to his turtle stance. I want to see what he will be doing next.

I care about what i ask, you are the only one that whom i let go without answering. I noticed that you ignored my question and commented on it, but at that moment you were much less talkative, didn't even mention my existence and i saw no reason to talk to a wall. It seems i was right and you deliberately ignored my question, but incidentally, you answered it in the same post where you finally noticed me (242).

[Iecerint]

You're not talking about ICE's post 90 are you Banna? His 242 suggests he wasn't claiming to have information suggesting Zang is town, i.e. daycop with innocent, otherwise zang would be more than just 'prob town'.

Ah, good catch. That's indeed what I was talking about. My bad.

@

triangle

- can you answer my question in 175? It is one of the points why i am voting T-Bone, i am reassessing it and want to make sure my understanding of his post is correct.

@

Iecrint

, after Grey made his second claim at post 90, i made a comment. You answered it with:

Iecerint comment is vague (don't understand whether you believe Grey or not)

I assumed it was a joke on page 1. When he kept it going on page 2+ and added additional details, I assumed it was real.

He has now clarified that it was all a gambit.

So what do you mean now by Zang being a confirmed town then?

In the bit you quoted I was referring to GreyICE's original claim. I had assumed that everyone was taking his reclaim at face value (at least, I had been).

[Tierce]

If Iecerint ever flips scum, Zang and GreyICE are town forever.

[kortul]

With nothing else going on in the game and nothing else to incriminate Zang, how can you say that you were adding a vote that wasn't based on Grey's claim being true?

Starbuck

, so you think that greenknight believed the Grey claim and voted based on it?

I actually quite like T-Bone post 255.

@Iecrint - ok, though in my comment i was clearly asking about the second claim, since it could be read that way and your first comment back then wasn't clear too.

@Tierce, my initial reaction to your 267 was "why?", but after thinking at it from different angles i came to the same conclusion. That actually gives me town read on you, since i don't see scum coming quickly to such conclusion and then sharing it.

[Tierce]

The reasoning is simple enough: Iecerint thought that GreyICE had declared a real innocent on Zang. This means nothing if Iecerint flips town, since as town he doesn't know others' alignments. If he ever flips scum, though, it's a sign of having knowledge of alignments that tipped his belief of a real daycop claim; it's that bit of "too much knowledge" that comes from scum knowing other people are town and falling into patterns of too-much-belief in their claims.

This is not a reason to lynch Iecerint, but yeah--

if

Iece eventually flips scum, Grey and Zang are untouchable and I would only review this read in LyLo.

[kortul]

CryMeARiver

, what are your thoughts and suspicions as of today? You have like 2 real posts so far, no vote and will be V/LA for a week. Your real posts were actually good, so don't let other games distract you

Hmm, i guess i am just afraid of deja-vu - in one of my last games two players had exactly the same pattern (rare posts but with good content), and both were scum. Hope that's not the case here.

[Iecerint]

@Iecrint - ok, though in my comment i was clearly asking about the second claim, since it could be read that way and your first comment back then wasn't clear too.

I think it's pretty clear that I'm talking about the first claim, because "he has since made it clear that it was all a gambit [so I believe him]" wouldn't make any sense otherwise. I'd have to simultaneously believe that he was still gambiting and believe the gambit (which is nonsensical).

I had thought you were confused about the difference between my attitude toward his claim on page 1 vs. page 2+ vs. the initial retcon. It didn't even occur to me that anyone wouldn't take the second-claim at face-value. ^^;

[jasonT1981]

Seriously, we are still on the fence sitting shit, long after its been shown I took a clear position? wow talk about grasping at straws

[greenknight]

I'm making things up? You NEVER believed Grey? That's a load of bollocks.

You do realise that if I was scum I'd have KNOWN FOR CERTAIN that Grey was lying?

That's your opinion, I think it all depends on the situation when it comes to OMGUS. The same as WIFOM. But you have to admit that other than Zang, you don't have any suspicion on anyone else except others who have displayed suspicion of you. That is a fact.

It's still not a scum tell. Besides, the entire game since RVS has (not by choice) centred around me.

On the T-Bone/you link, I am noting something that I feel needs to be noted. That's not reaching, that's making an observation. It's a feeling that I have and it should be explored. If I'm wrong that's fine, but I'm definitely going to lay it on the table.

Again you are not just making an observation, you are presenting it as a scum tell by saying "if X flips scum then Y's probably scum." from my POV it looks like you are just assuming I am scum and trying to build a case by fitting everything around that assumption.

What's your read on Greyice? You keep mentioning his unexplained scum read on yourself, but your actual stance on him has been very soft even though he ignores you when you ask him to explain it. Why? Are you afraid of being accused of OMGUS?

[kortul]

I'm making things up? You NEVER believed Grey? That's a load of bollocks.

You do realise that if I was scum I'd have KNOWN FOR CERTAIN that Grey was lying?

Now, that's interesting. Can you explain how did you come to this conclusion?