Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 1.7 - As of post 275

GreyICE (1) - Greenknight
Greenknight (4) - Acosmist, triangle123, Zang, Starbuck
jasont1981 (3) - Tierce, GreyICE, Iecerint
Acosmist (1) - T-Bone
T-Bone (2) - kortul, Korlash

Not Voting (2) - CryMeARiver, jasonT1981

The Current deadline is July 17, 2012 at 10:00 am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-07-17 10:00:00).

With 13 active votes - 7 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

Mod Notes - I will be LA as usual Saturday and Sunday for family weekend duties. Vote Counts will still appear but I may have some delay in answering PMs.

[greenknight]

Now, that's interesting. Can you explain how did you come to this conclusion?

Starbuck's case is that I'm scum who was trying to get town Zang mislynched. But if that was the case I'd know that Zang was town and therefore Grey was lying.

[Zang]

Jason- Please answer my question. Who do you think is scum?

If you have Zang, it was such an amazing game I forgot it.

I really think the two times we were scum together were the only two times we've played together.

I checked and I guess you're right.

Zang, I already admitted the tell was wrong by answering "both", not sure why you have to ask again...

I wanted it to be as clear as possible.

Unvote

It is very possible that your vote was scum motivated. But as long as you admit that your reasoning was flawed and because you haven't done anything recently that is very scummy, I think it is more likely that you had bad reasoning.

I am still suspicious of you but I do not think it is voteworthy.

I was trying to at least get something out of the investigation, and besides it took me a while to decide that the original tell I had on zang was wrong. I'm not the sort of person to immediately assume that I am wrong just because people tell me I am, especially not in a mafia game.

Do you think that your opinion is better than that of the town?

Also, do you still think that GreyICE is scum?

X behaviour is null tell == you don't go after people for this behaviour == it's acceptable. Acceptable pretty much DOES mean null tell.

That's not what it means at all. Posting reads without reasoning is reprehensible and anti-town but that does not neccesarily mean that it indicates something about that person's alignment so it is a null tell but that does not make it acceptable.

I have to unvote Vote: Acomist because it's too much of a coincidence for me. Irregardless of Jason's and Greenknight's alignment, this stance on the leading wagon screams scum to me.

Did you ever respond to Korlash's responce to your case on him? Do you think that he is still scum?

As for Acosmist, I guess he could be scum but I don't think he should be lynched today. I think he should be given more of a chance to provide conttent.

Zang (His reactions towards the 't-bone case', the irksome post and his reaction to it, his push of green)

How is my reaction to his case scummy? You have still failed to explain how that post is scummy.

[Korlash]

How is my reaction to his case scummy? You have still failed to explain how that post is scummy.

You seem to be keeping him as a viable 'suspect' apparently seeming to think the case some merit, yet you overall seem to ignore him.

the post was 'irk'some and only became scummy as you strung me along failing to answer the simplest of questions. The problem I had is that you have a problem with ICE as a player, yet would still vote with him if he had claimed to have targeted someone other than you. If you truly have a problem with ICE as a player then you should 'think' he is lying regardless of who he claims to have target seeing as how early and unlikely the claim is.

This was a minor bothersome point that should have been easily cleared up when I first asked yet you choose to skirt answering my question. So now a minor bothersome point has been made scummy due to your reaction to it.

[Iecerint]

Greenknight, why are you still voting GreyICE?

[Zang]

the post was 'irk'some and only became scummy as you strung me along failing to answer the simplest of questions. The problem I had is that you have a problem with ICE as a player, yet would still vote with him if he had claimed to have targeted someone other than you. If you truly have a problem with ICE as a player then you should 'think' he is lying regardless of who he claims to have target seeing as how early and unlikely the claim is.

This was a minor bothersome point that should have been easily cleared up when I first asked yet you choose to skirt answering my question. So now a minor bothersome point has been made scummy due to your reaction to it.

No, I answered it. You just didn't accept my answer.

My point was that if I was in a situation similar to Iecerint and did not really know either the person who claimed or who he stated was guilty, it was not unreasonable to vote for the person who was claimed to be guilty.

I still have absolutely no idea why this matters.

[CryMeARiver]

Tell all post tomorrow, just been super busy working and everything.

[triangle123]

The thing I don't like now is that Triangle is keeping the possibility of switching over to me alive. Keeping the justification open incase my wagon picks up steam. I find that to be a little scummy.

Um, well, of course I'm keeping it alive, because I think you're scum. I thought I made that pretty clear earlier but just in case I'm saying it now. However, I only have one vote and right now I like it on Green because I find him scummier to a greater magnitude than you, but that definitely does not mean I don't think you're scum. The way things are standing right now, if this day were to close with a T-Bone lynch, I would not have a problem with that.

T-Bone's post did, however, prompt me to take a look at Acosmist's iso. He had originally posted something insinuating he finds Green scummy for his Zang vote, but did not address Green for the rest of his posts. Given the large portion of his posts that are content-less, I don't think this in and of itself makes him scummy, but what does strike me as suspicious is that he seemed to trying to make a more meaningful attack on Starbuck - much fuller than his attack of sorts on Green - but then never mentioned her again and only said that Jason and Green are both scummy. This feels almost inconsistent.

Acosmist, why is Jason scum? Why is Green? What do you think of Starbuck?

To be clear, I don't think T-Bone and Acosmist are scum together but I find them independently scummy to varying degrees. Right now, I find Acosmist less scummy than T-Bone primarily because he doesn't seem to have completely caught up with the game yet but I would like to hear his answers to my questions.

@triangle - can you answer my question in 175? It is one of the points why i am voting T-Bone, i am reassessing it and want to make sure my understanding of his post is correct.

My apologies, I forgot to address this. T-Bone's post was in response to Green's post, where he discussed what he viewed as potential town and scum responses of Zang to Grey's daycop claim. Since he was accusing Zang of being scum, Green's post was geared more towards the idea of how Zang would act as scum (and this was also the ending part of his post), so to me it makes sense that T-Bone's response to that would have the idea of from a scum perspective implied.

I reviewed Jason's iso, and I still see him as town. I do want to hear more content from him, though, and less posts focused on defense.

[kortul]

green answer was good, now waiting for Starbuck answer.

Triangle, thanks for the opinion. While i still think this was a possible scum slip, there is a possibility of it being just an example based on different general impression of previous conversations, so i will drop the point. Combined with a recent post from T-Bone that mirrors some of my thoughts, i am no longer sure about him being scum.

UNVOTE: T-Bone

I will try to do ISO's during next couple of days to get fresh look at the picture.

As for Acosmist, I guess he could be scum but I don't think he should be lynched today. I think he should be given more of a chance to provide conttent.

And who, in your opinion, doesn't deserve such a chance?

[Acosmist]

@Acomist 141 - I mentioned nothing about your vote, other then the entire bandwgaon is bad.

oh ok, you need to be taken to the woodshed. All right.

Here is what you said:

Acomist and CMAR voted well before my posts, so stop trying to misrepresent my attack.

So, you stomped up and down and screamed shrilly "IT'S NOT FAIR THAT I'M BEING SINGLED OUT WHEN OTHER PEOPLE VOTED GREENKNIGHT NONONO" and then you held your breath until someone apologized for pointing out that your actions are scummy. And then your mother wiped your nose. Because you are 4 years old and people who are 4 years old believe the Tu Quoque Fallacy is not a fallacy, but some sort of ironclad rule of logical consequence.

As a matter of fact your vote is from RVS and you've done nothing to even support your vote.

Nothing?

Content to sit on a lynch hoping it'll go through?

, he asked, loadedquestioningly. Have

you

stopped beating your wife, T-Bone?

Actually just a quick look through your ISO...yea you don't seem to think Greenknight is scum at all but you're voting for him.

[citation needed]

The first time you outright say Green is scum is #194, a few pages later.

Wait what? My ISO reveals that I don't think Greenknight is scum at all but I say he's scum? Is this Moore's Paradox or are you a dialetheist?

This is the same reason I have a problem with Korlash, voting without backing it up, and then acting like you have a reason.

how does that make sense at all

I say this as evident from your 141 where you tell GK "My point stands". You never made a point in the first place.

post 141? This?

I hate walls and I am not contributing to their existence.

post 126:

1. WIFOM is bad logic. You admit it's not necessarily scummy (is the correlation even above 0?). So, why even mention it? it's a throwaway line, and a useless thing to say. Unless it bears on alignment, it's irrelevant.

2. If you're going to feed GreyICE an answer that is demonstrably wrong, why bother? My point stands. "Why am I scummy? Because I did X?" Well, lots of people did X and GreyICE had a different opinion of them, so, no, it CAN'T be that he was taking X (not getting worked up) to indicate scuminess. You had to know that. I'm constructively saying you did. So, yep, that was disingenuous.

post 127:

Tone seems way off. The way that quote wall was broken up rubbed me the wrong way entirely. Also, lol talking about my random vote on greenknight, the FIRST VOTE ON HIM, as an attempted "TU QUOQUE!"

kortul:

yo, GreyICE posted, my question stands.

Where is

any of what you just said

in that post?

Really considering changing my vote here.

I can practically see you stroking your chin, face locking in a grimace as you consider whether to vote me. "SHOULD I VOTE THE GUY I AM TRYING TO RAILROAD OR NOT? BETTER PRETEND THIS WAS A TOUGHIE."

I'm interested as to what Korlash thinks about you though.

^I totes believe you actually care about what Korlash thinks.

Appearance of Acomist again, someone I am liking less and less, especially looking at his posts in context.

Predetermined opinions. You have them.

So Acomist you think that the two leading wagons are both scum?

Yeah that's crazy talk! I should instead vote Korlash and then solicit his opinion! Like you!

You know, I JUST did that in another game and rode that to LyLo, and that is sending alarm bells off to me now.

People who say things are setting off alarm bells are lying.

It's not the exact same situation but the similarities makes me uneasy.

NUANCED OPINION. I AM UNEASY AND NOT TOTALLY CONVINCED I WANT TO VOTE YOU. THAT IS WHY I AM SO VOTING YOU.

However, based on what I cited about Acomist earlier, I'm seeing a link between him and Jason.

fever dreams, they exist! I star in yours!

He completely avoids the Jason issue when pressured by GreyIce, but apparently holds the belief that both Greenknight and Jason, the two leading wagons are scum.

False and, so? You're acting like people aren't allowed to do this.

This is an odd stance to take, because it is highly improbable we've managed to nail two scum one day 1.

Did we nail anyone? Magna, get in here! We have a lynch! Two of them! In a day!

And I just did that in my previous game

I'm not your alt. You're not my alt.

...while I won't go into details, it was a case where one wagon was on my scumbuddy and the other on a townie, and I spent my day saying they were both scum and then bussed my buddy, and was able to ride that town credit to LyLo. I don't want to go so far as to say "if Jason/Greenknight flip scum, then Acomist is scum", but it's something that is weighing heavy on my mind right now.

Oh so what you're saying is that Jason is your scumbuddy, and you are trying to make it seem like he is mine.

I have to

unvote Vote: Acomist

because it's too much of a coincidence for me. Irregardless of Jason's and Greenknight's alignment, this stance on the leading wagon screams scum to me.

1. irregardless :scanners-like head explosion:

2. You just said you didn't want to go so far as to connect our alignments, and not you're saying there is no connection. Pick a view.

Anyone wish to offer their thoughts on Acomist?

I am 100% sure he's town.

[Acosmist]

Also really, I say it's a monstrous pain for me to post due to my computer and you immediately launch a wall against me.

[Acosmist]

Acosmist, why is Jason scum? Why is Green? What do you think of Starbuck?

Jason's attitude in response to GreyICE and more seems to be more about procedure than substance. He's mad. He's flipped out. In fact, he's still flipping out about "fence-sitting". I'm going to butcher a joke about alternative pleading to explain what I mean. Someone is busted for possession. His defenses are "I never had anything on me" and "The cops who found the drugs I had on me didn't have a warrant." Jason seems to be mad about being caught, about the

way

people have come around to the belief that he's scum.

Green, from his initial handling of the GreyICE claim. He really badly wanted it to say something about Zang. He wanted a Zang lynch off it, and interpreted Zang's reaction in a distorted way to justify it. When he finally unvoted Zang, his very next post was to vote GreyICE. He was trying to massage the interaction between them into one lynch or another.

I see Starbuck agreed with me about this.

Starbuck asked GreyICE a loaded question (and apparently hasn't backed down from that) and I called her on it. I haven't seen anything else to concern me in that direction. I mean, doubling down on it isn't great, but whatever. My opinion on Starbuck is that I don't know what her loaded question says about her alignment.

[Starbuck]

From CMAR's #153:

Let's see what has happened so far from page 4.

Starbuck finally decides to acknowledge Grey's claim.

That is wrong. I acknowledged it in my #62. I bring this up because reading over Jason, I really don't feel this fence-sitting accusation. I asked the following question in 62:

So this could be a deliberate farce just because GreyICE hates your playstyle?

Jason was the next person to respond via this post:

The fact Zang/Gray have history is reason for Gray to investigate him off the bat.

It is also a reason why he would lie....

I believe this to be the case.

GrayICE are you prepared to go into a 1vs1 with Zang day 1... IE we lynch him and he flips town, we lynch you tomorrow for being proven to be lying?

Am also thinking GrayICE maybe a 3rd party lyncher.

He gave reasons as to why GreyICE would investigate Zang (if that was the case) and also why he would lie. He stated in this post that, of the possibilities given, that he believed GreyICE to be lying. Now, it definitely could have been his word choice or general layout of his grammar, but it also could have been someone looking for a reason to start a wagon. I had to re-read it a few times this go-round just to comprehend it. But he did, indeed, take a stance here, as well as at the very beginning in post #38:

On Serious note, I don't believe GrayICE for a second on his claim.

So this moves me onto Tierce, who caused this whole rush onto Jason with her #70, and she's still riding this train as is GreyICE who hasn't even given a reason for voting Jason.

These two posts are written with completely different frames of mind.

This bothers me. You cannot assume that you know where Jason's mind is when he posts. Also, given the above and the fact that he DID take a stance, it debunks your entire case.

And Korlash is just as bad...

I am pretty sure that saying I don't believe GrayICE is not fence sitting, but taking a position.

I merely pointed out some of the possible scenarios which has been twisted to fence sitting.

The fact Zang/Gray have history is reason for Gray to investigate him off the bat.

It is also a reason why he would lie.... I believe this to be the case.

Regardless of which side you toss your coin into, putting both of these side by side is a clear fence sit. You destroy all creditability you gained by picking a side when you reneged on that choice by talking about the 1v1, meaning you are still giving rise to the idea his claim isn't a lie.

Saying "I believe such and such" means nothing if your actions still show you strongly entertaining both possibilities. As it stands though, it's a rather dull fence sit that means very little given the circumstance which is why I paid it little mind.

Jason is saying the same thing in each of those quotes. Obviously, he could use better grammar to get his point across, but he says the same thing. That he believes GreyICE is lying.

You can take a stance such as Jason did by saying "I don't believe GreyIce" and still acknowledge that you could be wrong. I find that to be more of a town action than say greenknight not admitting the possibility of being wrong.



So Iecerint, to answer your questions and your accusations that I was ignoring Jason (when I really needed to give it more time due to re-reading and such), based on the above I am leaning town on Jason. I do think that his words have been twisted and misrepresented to make him look scummy, and that a closer look at Tierce and Korlash is needed, maybe even CMAR. He's stuck to his guns from the beginning but didn't come across as well as he hoped. He shouldn't be getting strung up because of other people's misrepresentation.

[Iecerint]

Understood @ Starbuck.

V/LA until Monday evening

[Starbuck]

@Starbuck 226 - But he backed off! He didn't really stretch to make a case of it because everyone went "lolol you're wrong" and he went "yea maybe alright". He conceeded the point on Zang and moved to Greyice long ago. Do you believe his reasons for voting Greyice is also scummy?

No, he didn't go "yea maybe alright", he said that "it might be a clash of styles" as per 107. He only conceded when, in 107 again, that he "didn't find any further scum tells in our back and forth, so unvote for now". He only stated it as wrong a long time after in #251 after being called out about it.

He only seemed to vote GreyICE because Grey listed him as scum without reasoning. It's an OMGUS vote. Look at his reasoning in 110:

With the exception of Starbuck, your list conveniently boiled down to "I'll just call people picking up votes scum and those who aren't town". So colour me unimpressed by this statement.

With nothing else going on in the game and nothing else to incriminate Zang, how can you say that you were adding a vote that wasn't based on Grey's claim being true?

Starbuck

, so you think that greenknight believed the Grey claim and voted based on it?

I don't think green would have focused on Zang if not for Grey's gambit. Also, green never said that he didn't believe it. When he voted for Zang, he said the following in #64:

Gray is probably faking, but Zang is taking the fact that people are voting him based on an "obvious lie" from a player he has history with too calmly imo.

I mean, if we are going to call anyone out on fencesitting it should be Green because he never took a clear stance. At some points, he's calling it a fakeclaim and then asks Zang the following:

Do you think Grey is a player who would recklessly use day abilities at the start of d1 in this way?

It's still not a scum tell. Besides, the entire game since RVS has (not by choice) centred around me.

Whoa there, drama queen. The game has NOT centered on you as much as you want to think it has.

Again you are not just making an observation, you are presenting it as a scum tell by saying "if X flips scum then Y's probably scum." from my POV it looks like you are just assuming I am scum and trying to build a case by fitting everything around that assumption.

What's your read on Greyice? You keep mentioning his unexplained scum read on yourself, but your actual stance on him has been very soft even though he ignores you when you ask him to explain it. Why? Are you afraid of being accused of OMGUS?

I am making an observation because you two are defending each other pretty valiantly, and it should be noted.

I am also not assuming that you are scum. I believe that you are scum. I am not "trying to build a case", I have built a case. That's how this game goes, buck-o. Do you have any idea how many times that I've been mislynched Day 1 as town? Go take a look at my MafiaWiki, it's not completely up-to-date, but you'll get an idea. I do apologize if that is what is happening to you, but it's part of the game. If you are town, maybe you'll work harder next time at not appearing so scummy. If you are scum, maybe you'll work harder next time at not appearing so scummy.

GreyICE is still null to me. He hasn't given me a reason either way to put him as scum or town. I would like him to explain himself so that I can get a better read on him. I'm not afraid of OMGUS, but it sure looks like you are now.

Now, that's interesting. Can you explain how did you come to this conclusion?

Starbuck's case is that I'm scum who was trying to get town Zang mislynched. But if that was the case I'd know that Zang was town and therefore Grey was lying.

That's not all of it, just some of it.

You never explicitly took a side when it came to Grey's gambit on Zang. You left it at "probably faking" so that you could easily swap to either side depending how the wind turned.

Starbuck asked GreyICE a loaded question (and apparently hasn't backed down from that) and I called her on it. I haven't seen anything else to concern me in that direction. I mean, doubling down on it isn't great, but whatever. My opinion on Starbuck is that I don't know what her loaded question says about her alignment.

Which? The question from 103?

I don't understand how asking for some reasoning for scum reads is a loaded question.

[GreyICE]

See posts like 284, 287, and 289?

I'm not reading those

[GreyICE]

Oh fuck this.

Vote: Kortul

[jasonT1981]

Acosmist, why is Jason scum? Why is Green? What do you think of Starbuck?

Jason's attitude in response to GreyICE and more seems to be more about procedure than substance. He's mad. He's flipped out. In fact, he's still flipping out about "fence-sitting". I'm going to butcher a joke about alternative pleading to explain what I mean. Someone is busted for possession. His defenses are "I never had anything on me" and "The cops who found the drugs I had on me didn't have a warrant." Jason seems to be mad about being caught, about the

way

people have come around to the belief that he's scum..

Im sorry, but where have I shown I am mad at 'getting caught' IF you bothered to even read the game you will see my frustration was

1)With GrayICE being... well, GrayICE
2) The whole 'OMG Jason is fence sitting' thing still being brought up when its been clearly proven, and stated by many I was taking positions.

If you look at Team Mafia, I let GrayICE coast without really calling him out on his random scum reads with no substance, because as scum I knew he was town and going in the wrong direction and leading us to a win. Here I am very frustrated with him, as I don't know his alignment and as town his actions really irritate me to high dough
You sir, are full of crap and for once I do agree with GrayICE.

[jasonT1981]

See posts like 284, 287, and 289?

I'm not reading those

you should. Stop being a GrayICE, if you were truly town, you would be reading everything so as to absorb all information. As scum, you don't have to read everything.

[Starbuck]

It's not like mine are really walls. They are mostly quotes.

[greenknight]

So, this paragraph.

Do you have any idea how many times that I've been mislynched Day 1 as town? Go take a look at my MafiaWiki, it's not completely up-to-date, but you'll get an idea. I do apologize if that is what is happening to you, but it's part of the game. If you are town, maybe you'll work harder next time at not appearing so scummy. If you are scum, maybe you'll work harder next time at not appearing so scummy.

1) Your day 1 mislynch record is irrelevant.

2) Given that you've been saying that I am scum for pretty much the entire game, and are trying to call me out for fencesitting, that "apology" for a possible mislynch is completely artificial.

3) You are now saying that I appear scummy, so if I'm town and happen to be mislynched that's just "part of the game"? That's not town reasoning. In fact this paragraph reads more like "if you're town you're a bad townie, so we should lynch you anyway and it's your own fault not mine." I don't need to explain why that point of view is scummy.

GreyICE is still null to me. He hasn't given me a reason either way to put him as scum or town. I would like him to explain himself so that I can get a better read on him. I'm not afraid of OMGUS, but it sure looks like you are now.

Right... You would like him to explain himself, which is why you put no actual pressure on him even when he repeatedly ignores you, and instead pat him on the back for "ending RVS"? How does that make any sense?

The case on me is getting increasingly contrived too. On what planet is calling something "probably fake" fencesitting? How does questioning Zang about HIS opinion imply that I am fencesitting? If I wanted to try and get zang lynched based on Grey's claim as alleged while leaving myself an out, why would I discredit it by calling it "probably fake" instead of "probably true"?

Vote: Starbuck

I don't think Starbuck and grey are scum together because of the above interaction. I need to do a reread at some point (hopefully tomorrow) because I haven't gotten strong scum vibes from anyone else recently, and I need to see Acos/Kortul posts in context to make sense of them.

[Tierce]

So many things to do, so little time. Knowing how to fly a TARDIS is a bit irrelevant when you don't have one accessible at the moment.

TL;DR: Post tomorrow, must review T-Bone, and was that a kortul vote I saw somewhere? Grey, you should know better.

[Starbuck]

1. I never said my mislynch record was relevant.

2. However, you want to take it.

3. I'm not "now saying" that you appear scummy. I *HAVE* been saying that you appear scummy, but you could definitely be a mislynch. I'm not ruling that out, but it still doesn't make you less scummy than what you are. If you are town, you sure aren't acting like it, that's the point of that statement.


He did end RVS, that is a fact. With his claim and he spawned your asinine case on Zang and also the ridiculous one on Jason that got us to where we are now. Take off the blinders, buddy.

I would like Grey to explain more. I've played games with him where he has explained and hasn't been this anti-town. No matter how much I harp on it, Grey isn't going to give his point of view until he is ready. This I just know from meta. That isn't me not putting pressure, it's me going off prior experience.

Using the word "probably" makes it so that you can swing either way. You never did say with vehemence whether or not you believed it.

And now, you place the vote. Welcome to your second OMGUS vote with a weak-as-can-be case.

[GreyICE]

It's not like mine are really walls. They are mostly quotes.

That's why I'm not reading them.

Quote
-Reply
Quote
-Reply
Quote
-Reply

Yeah that shit is completely pointless. No one cares. No one reads it, no one wants to read it. I can read a well constructed paragraph. Or a dozen. But I'm not going to try and follow some thread of some dinky little conversation you're having that's veering off course. If you wanted me to read it, you'd make it readable.

[GreyICE]

So many things to do, so little time. Knowing how to fly a TARDIS is a bit irrelevant when you don't have one accessible at the moment.

TL;DR: Post tomorrow, must review T-Bone, and was that a kortul vote I saw somewhere? Grey, you should know better.

HE'S SCUM

DAMMIT

LOOK AT HIM

SCUM