Mini 1348- Dragon Ball Z: Saiyan Saga Mafia (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

I find Yates’s “look at the flavor to see if it matchs .. Goku is a main character so he has to be a PR” to be a contrived load of crap. Let’s look at two completed Theme games that Yates has played in …

Ghostbusters 2 –

Ray & Winston (two of the Ghostbusters and obv Main character) – VTs
Judge Stephen Wexler (minor character from a single scene) – Town Lyncher
Statue of Liberty (a nice plot point but clearly not a main character) – Town PGO
Louis Tully (secondary character used for comic relief) – Tracker

So here we have two of the Ghostbusters are VTs while secondary to completely minor characters are power-roles. So his “Goku doesn’t make sense as a VT” argument is directly refuted by his own experience.

Although it was Tiger Eaten

JasonT’s “Sci-Fi Mafia

” also refutes his experience.

There he was John Connor (pictured as the main character from T3), a VT.
I was Sarah Connor, Town Watcher.
Woodruff was Luke Skywalker, Town Hider
Zang was Admiral Adama, Town Rolecop

This refutes his thesis that “Characters should match roles” thesis. Luke a Hider? Sarah Connor a Watcher while John is a VT?

So we have two games that Yates has directly played in where his direct experience contradicts that stance he is taking. Having seen this on MS several times (and maybe more … Ghostbusters 1 was mostly Tiger eaten and I don’t know enough about Metroid to know what relevance all those characters have) he shouldn’t as Town be sticking so strongly to his “roles must match characters” and “more important characters must be PRs” stances.

This whole process is probably a fishing expedition whereby he’s trying to fish out reactions from players saying “My role PM doesn’t match my character”.

Lynch him …

[Acosmist]

No, Metroid correlated character importance and role importance well. But the other examples are well taken.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – Is Peregrine actually in this game or has he been replaced and I missed it?

@BK

– where did you go and why did you NOT vote Yates?

--

The Benmage counterwagon looks pretty damn desperate.

Yup. Now on to your thoughts since you hate both wagons … why aren’t you doing more to actually push the person you are voting? You seem to have just parked your vote and are riding out the day.

--

And *you* are saying *others* are derping? This is TERRIBLE logic. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe both claims are true? I don't know what *your* role pm said but *mine* suggests using my vote to lynch SCUM is the right thing to do in order to advance my win condition.

Nope.jpg.

You are scummy and claimed VT. Your rhetoric attempt is noted for the record. Eat rope.

--

Oh dear gawd, what the hell do quotes have to do with making a case or not?

Gut and dislike of the Yates wagon.

Well being able to present why you find him scummy is pretty important if you are Town. I went and found your case that boiled it down in a ‘clear and functional way” for everyone's benefit.

So are you saying that between Post 741 where you said you didn’t want to lynch Benmage on principle and Post 829 where you voted him that his page 31 interaction with you was enough to overcome your principle?

[pappums rat]

Votecount 1.27

Yates - 5 (Slandaar, Benmage, Agent_Ireland, MagnaofIllusion, Acosmist)
Acosmist - 1 (mcqueen)
Agent_Ireland - 1 (snifit)
snifit - 2 (BK201, PeregrineV)
Benmage - 4 (Yates, Thor665, syndromeofadown, JohnnyFarrar)

Not voting - ()

PeregrineV is V/LA until Tuesday.

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is 1 AM EST on July 11, 2012.

MOD – Is Peregrine actually in this game or has he been replaced and I missed it?

He told me that he will be V/LA until Tuesday night.

[Yates]

Is Peregrine actually in this game or has he been replaced and I missed it?

Why are you half-assing your way through this game? PV is V/LA until tonight as per this post made Sunday:

PeregrineV is V/LA until Tuesday night.

Yes. That is an intentional post to discredit you. It perfectly illustrates the amount of effort you are putting into this game and should help me disprove your lazy attempt at trying to discredit me in your bs argument re flavor as posted here:

I find Yates’s “look at the flavor to see if it matchs .. Goku is a main character so he has to be a PR” to be a contrived load of crap.

You are so incredibly wrong that I actually took the time to show you just how wrong you are.

1. In SciFi I *was* John Connor [you got that much right] - the

BOY

- not grown up John Connor. Since the game was eaten by Tigers, I don't remember who the PR's were but they were much bigger characters than kid John Connor. Using your OWN role you know Sarah Connor made WAY more sense as a PR since these characters were from? What show? Oh right, Terminator: The

Sarah *fucking* Connor

Chronicles. What was her role in that TV show? Main character? And John was what? Supporting character? Sarah's sole mission was to what?

Look out for

John Connor so he can fulfill his destiny? So, yeah, flavor and role matched.
This is the image that was sent to me in my role pm as a reminder:

I'm guessing yours looked something like this?

2. Starfox 64 I was General Pepper. I had the ability to stop a lynch. Flavor and role matched.
3. HIMYM I was James Stinson [Barney's brother]. I was VT. Flavor and role matched.
4. Ghostbusters I was Egon. I was 3-shot-cop. Flavor and role matched.
5. GBII I was Wexler. I was a Town Lyncher that also won if I lynched the Scolari Brothers. Flavor and role matched. I'll just link the game that shows 11 out of 13 roles matched while the other two [Ray and Winston] at least made sense and were Town. Further, that game proves that the OTHER main character [Egon] was a strong fakeclaim. So you just disproved your own point.

Spoiler:

Link to post 839

ROLES

Match 1.Yates - Judge Wexler Lyncher

Match 2.Benmage - Dr. Peter Venkman - Psuedo Psychic x2

Match 3.Pine - Baby Oscar - Enabler

Match 4.jasonT1981 - Louis Tully - Tracker

Match 5.seanald - [STRONG fakeclaim]

Egon Spengler

/Scoleri Bros - Scum

Match 6.greyICE - Slimer VT

Match 7.riceballtail - Dana Barrett - Recruiter

Match 8.Zeek - Statue of Liberty - PGO

Town 9.drmyshotgun - Ray Stantz VT

Match 10.DeltaWave - Janosz Poha - Recruiter

Town 11.Dutch one - Winston Zeddemore - VT

Match 12.Thomith - Vigo The Carpathian - Possessor

Match 13.Amrun - [weak fakeclaim] Janine Melnitz/Running Ghost

6. Metroid Mafia I was Queen Metroid. I was BP Mafia. Flavor and role matched.
7. DC Universe I was Red Robin. I was VT. Flavor and role matched.

That's SEVEN theme games [and 20 characters?] I played in where flavor and role matched. Yes. Seven out of... seven.

But you're right. Despite the fact that flavor and roles have matched in 100% of the theme games I have played in, I know that this doesn't happen in bastard games. I suppose there is 1/10th of 1% of a chance we are in a bastard game and weren't made aware of it. So why haven't you taken the

easy

litmus test? Does

YOUR

flavor and character match

THIS GAME

?? Mine does. That's 8 for 8.

So in summary, you are wrong. Or lying. Period.

[Acosmist]

What do we do after we lynch you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. In SciFi I *was* John Connor [you got that much right] - the BOY - not grown up John Connor. Since the game was eaten by Tigers, I don't remember who the PR's were but they were much bigger characters than kid John Connor. Using your OWN role you know Sarah Connor made WAY more sense as a PR since these characters were from? What show? Oh right, Terminator: The Sarah *fucking* Connor Chronicles. What was her role in that TV show? Main character? And John was what? Supporting character? Sarah's sole mission was to what? Look out forJohn Connor so he can fulfill his destiny? So, yeah, flavor and role matched.
This is the image that was sent to me in my role pm as a reminder:

Well let’s start with this gem and everything that is wrong with it …

1. Well that picture of John Connor is from T-3 not Sarah Connor Chronicles. So you are wrong on that account. Are you stating that your Role PM from that game specified you were from the Sarah Connor Chronicles?

2. You are wrong on my picture as well …



My role PM actually paraphrases the plot of Terminator 1 (while the pic is from Terminator 2) but does not specify a particular source.

3. John Connor was arguably the main role in Sarah Connor Chronicles. He's not a little kid but a High Schooler and a strong role. I watched every episode of that series. He’s not some helpless kid. He fights and kills Terminators, makes tough decisions (including abandoning his mother to go to the future to retrieve Cameron’s body and defying Sarah in keeping Cameron around), and even saves his mother when she is kidnapped and drugged. Arguing he’s a secondary character to her is ludicrous and undermines your whole “he made sense as a VT” argument.

In fact that whole of your response completely dodges addressing “Goku couldn’t be a VT” argument. John Connor from Sarah Connor Chronicles (or T2 and T3, take your pick) is a main character. Yet you are comfortable arguing that you are VT. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

2. Starfox 64 I was General Pepper. I had the ability to stop a lynch. Flavor and role matched.

4. Ghostbusters I was Egon. I was 3-shot-cop. Flavor and role matched.

So in Ghostbusters 1 were all the Ghostbusters who were Town Powerroles? I don’t know since it was Tiger eaten.

I also can’t find Starfox in your Thread history – were any characters better known than General Pepper VTs?

3. HIMYM I was James Stinson [Barney's brother]. I was VT. Flavor and role matched.

That’s the game where Barney Stinson was a Vig, correct? Are you arguing that makes flavor sense? If you had to find a Vig Marshall makes the only sense if you are relying on flavor (since he is the only man who can actually fight).

5. GBII I was Wexler. I was a Town Lyncher that also won if I lynched the Scolari Brothers. Flavor and role matched. I'll just link the game that shows 11 out of 13 roles matched while the other two [Ray and Winston] at least made sense and were Town. Further, that game proves that the OTHER main character [Egon] was a strong fakeclaim. So you just disproved your own point.

Once again you are ignoring your own argument in this. Wexler is a minor character. Your whole argument is that Goku can’t be a VT because he is a main character. Yet two of the four Ghostbusters were VTS. Again … DOES NOT COMPUTE.

7. DC Universe I was Red Robin. I was VT. Flavor and role matched.

And here we go over the top with your flailing. Red Robin (aka Tim Drake) made sense as a VT while every other Robin related character in the game [Damien Wayne Robin and Nightwing (the first Robin) as Cops and Stephanie Brown (briefly Robin) as a Doctor] are all Powerroles?

See you aren’t arguing from any standpoint of believability but just cherry-picking whatever points you think you can make.

That's SEVEN theme games [and 20 characters?] I played in where flavor and role matched. Yes. Seven out of... seven.

The fact that you try to only use your own roles (and then do it badly) to prove your point while blatantly ignoring other roles in the game only adds to the fact you are dodging the “Goku can’t be VT” argument as evidence you are just making it up.

Eat rope!

[Yates]

What do we do after we lynch you?

Investigate then lynch Ben. I'm guessing scum is going to kill either Slandaar tonight [if Town] as Goku is too tempting of a target to pass up and will not be doc protected over a claimed cop [you] or one other person who shall remain nameless [until dead QT] for their own well being as they are the only other person playing this game with any level of competence and the only hope we have of pulling our heads out of our asses and salvaging a victory.

1. You're right. That pic was from T3. Who cares? He still wasn't a major player in terms of the Sci Fi game and VT absolutely made sense just as Sarah made sense as a watcher. You know it. I know it. I'm done talking about a game eaten by Tigers since I can't link people to the truth.

In fact that whole of your response completely dodges addressing “Goku couldn’t be a VT” argument. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

This is a complete lie and misrep. That entire post addresses that specific argument. What do you think was the point in correlating flavor and characters? YOU are the one dodging the ONLY PERTINENT QUESTION:

Does YOUR role match flavor?

Another question:

Does YOUR role match flavor?

So in Ghostbusters 1 were all the Ghostbusters who were Town Powerroles? I don’t know since it was Tiger eaten.

No. Peter was a PR but Ray wasn't in the game [he was a fakeclaim]. Winston was also a PR. Actually, I think Peter was a fakeclaim for Gozer so in that sense yes.

I also can’t find Starfox in your Thread history – were any characters better known than General Pepper VTs?

James McCloud was the cop and Peppy Hare was some other PR [doc, maybe?]. I don't know flavor for this game either but that's what I remember. Main character had a PR. This was my point, yes?

That’s the game where Barney Stinson was a Vig, correct? Are you arguing that makes flavor sense? If you had to find a Vig Marshall makes the only sense if you are relying on flavor (since he is the only man who can actually fight).

??? This isn't even a point worth arguing. Barney was a PR, which one doesn't really matter. Main character had a PR. This was my point, yes?

Once again you are ignoring your own argument in this. Wexler is a minor character. Your whole argument is that Goku can’t be a VT because he is a main character. Yet two of the four Ghostbusters were VTS. Again … DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Goku is *THE* main character. Two of the THREE main characters [I don't think Winston is on par with "Doe, Ray, Egon" but we can agree to disagree] in GBII *WERE* PR's. You can't make all 4 Ghostbusters Cops in a 13 person game for balance.

Red Robin (aka Tim Drake) made sense as a VT while every other Robin related character in the game [Damien Wayne Robin and Nightwing (the first Robin) as Cops and Stephanie Brown (briefly Robin) as a Doctor] are all Powerroles?

I didn't remember that. I was in the game for all of 48 real hours before being NKed. But yes, Tim Drake [my role] made sense as VT. Nightwing absolutely made sense as cop [doesn't he still have his own comic?] given the character list that flipped [waaaay to "Robin" heavy]. That game should have been called "Robin and Green Lantern Mafia."

The fact that you try to only use your own roles to prove your point...

Proves only that I posted what I could remember and quickly point to. The rest of that line is complete bullshit. Hell, I even linked to the entire player list where I could. It's unfortunate that so many of my games were eaten by Tigers but you play the hand you are dealt. There are a number of people in this game that may have been in these other games that can speak to the veracity of my claims.

Also,

Does YOUR role match flavor?

[syndromeofadown]

I think I can solve this flavor problem. I remember watching DBZ and in the saiyan saga the enemies with the huge power levels were vegeta and nappa so if someone claims either we lynch them. Well that's all I got, unless this is one of those bastard games where character alignment in show =/= alignment in mafia.

[Acosmist]

I think I can solve this flavor problem. I remember watching DBZ and in the saiyan saga the enemies with the huge power levels were vegeta and nappa so if someone claims either we lynch them. Well that's all I got, unless this is one of those bastard games where character alignment in show =/= alignment in mafia.

That is a startling admission.

[syndromeofadown]

hey I actually watch the show. Whats your flavor knowledge, nothing?

[Yates]

What do we do after we lynch you?

Actually, it's almost getting to the point where you can flip a coin between investigating Ben and MoI. MoI is misrepping and twisting logic like crazy.

[syndromeofadown]

MoI is misrepping and twisting logic like crazy

MoI always does that.

[Acosmist]

What do we do after we lynch you?

Actually, it's almost getting to the point where you can flip a coin between investigating Ben and MoI. MoI is misrepping and twisting logic like crazy.

OK, no one is directing my investigation.

[Acosmist]

hey I actually watch the show. Whats your flavor knowledge, nothing?

Hey, you claimed scum.

[syndromeofadown]

not this again...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm guessing scum is going to kill either Slandaar tonight [if Town] as Goku is too tempting of a target to pass up and will not be doc protected over a claimed cop [you] or one other person who shall remain nameless [until dead QT] for their own well being as

they are the only other person playing this game with any level of competence

and the only hope we have of pulling our heads out of our asses and salvaging a victory.

The bolded is quite funny. To quote Homer Simpson (who I imagine is a role model of yours) – “Everyone is stupid but me”.

I’d respond to parts of the rest of Post 857 if it wasn’t completely garbled. As to your “DOES YOUR ROLE FLAVOR MATCH” … again nice fishing.

Actually, it's almost getting to the point where you can flip a coin between investigating Ben and MoI. MoI is misrepping and twisting logic like crazy.

Nope.jpg. Try again.

--

Syndrome again claims VI at Post 858 …

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Yates

- What are your reads on Agent Ireland, BK201 and Syndrome ...

[Acosmist]

not this again...

OK, so you just want us to think you're too stupid to be worth holding to your word? It's a really annoying position to be in, having to dismiss what you say as being unbound by the normal requirements of discourse (here, the requirement that someone have a reasonable basis to assert each thing asserted).

[Acosmist]

Let me make it explicit since there's no a whole lot of time and I shouldn't be vague.

I am King Kai. Claim already out there, so this is nothing new. Would I EVER say something like "You know, I wonder if villains from DBZ are town and the heroes are scum in this game"? I could say it, could certainly think it, but with objective evidence of its falsity in my possession, why would I entertain it for long?

I know precisely one role. This provides me prima facie evidence that good dudes = town. It's only one role, so for me to get locked into the belief of a perfect correspondence among other roles would be a hasty generalization, but surely THAT is a more plausible belief than what syndrome said.

SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Thor665]

The Benmage counterwagon looks pretty damn desperate. I don't see it. Can anyone make it not look awful to me?
Pretty tired right now and not thinking very clearly. Looks like the A_I wagon is a no go and I don't want to lynch Yates or Benmage. I'll be able to check in once more before deadline. Willing to compromise and make a shit vote to lynch Yates if necessary though.

I think the core of the Benmage wagon is at least as solid as the Yates one - is it just the speed of it that bugs you, or do you have specific issues?
Also, why do you like the Yates wagon better?

So are you saying that between Post 741 where you said you didn’t want to lynch Benmage on principle and Post 829 where you voted him that his page 31 interaction with you was enough to overcome your principle?

Yes. You'll note that the issue that bugged me happened there, and it was an exceedingly odd interaction. Plus, and you have to recognize this, we do want a decent counter even if we're going to lynch Yates no matter what. Stop whining, this stuff will be gold if he flips scum or town.

Reading your guys debates of roles, I have to say my feeling is Yates is holding even. I think his point about the Peter/Gozer thing even strengthens his call. The biggest win you have is the John Connor/Sarah Chronicles thing (and I don't know enough about that show to even begin to comment intelligently on who is right) but all of the other ones he brought up I feel hold solid to his perceptions as stated here. Do you really see it as totally hash?

He can be scum, but I don't think he's scum for his attitude towards the role claim - is that the whole basis of why you think he's scum? Or are we just lynching him because he's the more suspect VT?

Also, what do you think about my call on his replies to Benmage where he said he'd claimed VT even when he hadn't - you see that as an intentional setup trick performed by scum? Or just a VT who thought he had claimed and forgot he hadn't full claimed?

[Acosmist]

And since I've seen this kind of crazy insane thing said by town before, I am not completely sold on syndrome being scum, but, like

you don't want me to compare your intellect to the intellect of the person in that game

I don't want the town's survival to potentially be up to such a person.

[Thor665]

I know precisely one role. This provides me prima facie evidence that good dudes = town. It's only one role, so for me to get locked into the belief of a perfect correspondence among other roles would be a hasty generalization, but surely THAT is a more plausible belief than what syndrome said.

SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Meh, the only thing that matters is he forgot about Raditz so he's a chump when it comes to knowing DBZ.

[BK201]

Whats with this flavor knowledge discussion? All b/c claimed Goku is claiming VT? Mod can give lesser characters the PRs instead just for fun, its his/her game.
Honestly I'm not even reading those walls.

[Yates]

@Yates

- What are your reads on Agent Ireland, BK201 and Syndrome ...

Dopey, Lazy and Sneezy. What do you care? According to you I'm scum, right?

I’d respond to parts of the rest of Post 857 if it wasn’t completely garbled.

By all means, allow me to fix that for you so we can get right down to business...

Spoiler:

Words

1. You're right. That pic was from T3. Who cares? He still wasn't a major player in terms of the Sci Fi game and VT absolutely made sense just as Sarah made sense as a watcher. You know it. I know it. I'm done talking about a game eaten by Tigers since I can't link people to the truth.

In fact that whole of your response completely dodges addressing “Goku couldn’t be a VT” argument. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

This is a complete lie and misrep. That entire post addresses that specific argument. What do you think was the point in correlating flavor and characters? YOU are the one dodging the ONLY PERTINENT QUESTION:

Does YOUR role match flavor?

Another question:

Does YOUR role match flavor?

So in Ghostbusters 1 were all the Ghostbusters who were Town Powerroles? I don’t know since it was Tiger eaten.

No. Peter was a PR but Ray wasn't in the game [he was a fakeclaim]. Winston was also a PR. Actually, I think Peter was a fakeclaim for Gozer so in that sense yes.

I also can’t find Starfox in your Thread history – were any characters better known than General Pepper VTs?

James McCloud was the cop and Peppy Hare was some other PR [doc, maybe?]. I don't know flavor for this game either but that's what I remember. Main character had a PR. This was my point, yes?

That’s the game where Barney Stinson was a Vig, correct? Are you arguing that makes flavor sense? If you had to find a Vig Marshall makes the only sense if you are relying on flavor (since he is the only man who can actually fight).

??? This isn't even a point worth arguing. Barney was a PR, which one doesn't really matter. Main character had a PR. This was my point, yes?

Once again you are ignoring your own argument in this. Wexler is a minor character. Your whole argument is that Goku can’t be a VT because he is a main character. Yet two of the four Ghostbusters were VTS. Again … DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Goku is *THE* main character. Two of the THREE main characters [I don't think Winston is on par with "Doe, Ray, Egon" but we can agree to disagree] in GBII *WERE* PR's. You can't make all 4 Ghostbusters Cops in a 13 person game for balance.

Red Robin (aka Tim Drake) made sense as a VT while every other Robin related character in the game [Damien Wayne Robin and Nightwing (the first Robin) as Cops and Stephanie Brown (briefly Robin) as a Doctor] are all Powerroles?

I didn't remember that. I was in the game for all of 48 real hours before being NKed. But yes, Tim Drake [my role] made sense as VT. Nightwing absolutely made sense as cop [doesn't he still have his own comic?] given the character list that flipped [waaaay to "Robin" heavy]. That game should have been called "Robin and Green Lantern Mafia."

The fact that you try to only use your own roles to prove your point...

Proves only that I posted what I could remember and quickly point to. The rest of that line is complete bullshit. Hell, I even linked to the entire player list where I could. It's unfortunate that so many of my games were eaten by Tigers but you play the hand you are dealt. There are a number of people in this game that may have been in these other games that can speak to the veracity of my claims.

As to your “DOES YOUR ROLE FLAVOR MATCH” … again nice fishing.

We have very different definitions of "fishing." I didn't ask for a name or roleclaim. I just asked you to see if your role matches flavor. Yes/No is pretty sufficient. Mine does. Acosmist's does. My guess is the answer is "yes" or you would have thrown it in my face already.

Look, I am resigned to the fact I'm getting lynched. All things being equal, it's not a huge loss to the Town and this game has been as enjoyable as icy hot in the jock strap so I'm cool with it. Would I rather see scum getting lynched? Obviously. I just think some of you need to get your heads out of your asses because this game isn't going to end well.

@Acosmist - I'm not "directing your investigations," I'm answering the specific question you asked of me. I'm saying if *I* were the cop, these are the people *I* would look at. Make of that what you will.