Mini 1348- Dragon Ball Z: Saiyan Saga Mafia (Game Over)

[Acosmist]

OK, but even if you flip town I'm using my own basis to decide investigations, which will be between me and the mod. I was soliciting advice on whom to lynch and why.

[Yates]

I know precisely one role. This provides me prima facie evidence that good dudes = town. It's only one role, so for me to get locked into the belief of a perfect correspondence among other roles would be a hasty generalization, but surely THAT is a more plausible belief than what syndrome said.

And yet you are voting for Town? I find your vote to be intellectually equivalent to the nonsense that syndrome just espoused.

PE: Fair enough. I would expect nothing less. I'm voting for Ben and posted why so there's your answer.

[Thor665]

@Yates

- What are your reads on Agent Ireland, BK201 and Syndrome ...

Dopey, Lazy and Sneezy. What do you care? According to you I'm scum, right?

That's actually scummy. What the hell, Yates?

[Acosmist]

I know precisely one role. This provides me prima facie evidence that good dudes = town. It's only one role, so for me to get locked into the belief of a perfect correspondence among other roles would be a hasty generalization, but surely THAT is a more plausible belief than what syndrome said.

And yet you are voting for Town? I find your vote to be intellectually equivalent to the nonsense that syndrome just espoused.

PE: Fair enough. I would expect nothing less. I'm voting for Ben and posted why so there's your answer.

OK then. Can't see unvoting you with this attitude.

[Acosmist]

@Yates

- What are your reads on Agent Ireland, BK201 and Syndrome ...

Dopey, Lazy and Sneezy. What do you care? According to you I'm scum, right?

That's actually scummy. What the hell, Yates?

Whoa, we agree on something. I've been trying to solicit

anything

from Yates for us to use if/when he dies, and he's offered nothing.

[BK201]

I'm surprised there's no Krillin counter-claim. Even though we don't know which characters are in here for sure, I'm under the impression Krillin is probably is in here. Need someone to make fun of after all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m going to tie this up in a nice little post to demonstrate how Yates’s post doesn’t make sense from a Town perspective.

He’s provided two interlinked premisese –

A. That the major characters (Goku in his example) from a series MUST be power-roles.
B. That all characters fit based on “flavor”

From this he drew the following conclusion – that Slandaar was either lying and was either a Town PR or Scum with a Goku fake-claim.

I’ll address first why his premises are wrong and then why his conclusion and follow-up actions don’t make sense from a logical Town perspective.

Premise 1

- The major characters from a Series MUST be power-roles.

I’ve already addressed how this is incorrect in Post 850 and Post 856 but to summarize –

From his own direct game experience (Ghostbusters 2) of the four Ghostbusters (and eliminating Winston as a Main character is just dissembling on his part to shore up his lacking defense) we have the following –

2 VTs
1 Town PR
1 Fake-claim

Furthermore John Connor (who is a main character from whatever source material you choose be it T2, T3, or Sarah Connor Chronicles) in Sci Fi Mafia (his own role) was a VT.

So he’s seen clearly in games he has played that being a major character from the source material does not mean that they must be VT here on MS.

As to Goku being ‘THE’ main character from the Saiyen Saga that would be up for debate. Gohan is just as important a figure as Goku. I’d probably assess Gohan, Goku and Piccollo as the top three characers.

Premise 2

– Roles must match their characters via flavor.

This also bad as ‘flavor matching’ as he’s relied on is completely subjective. Take for example Red Robin from DC Mafia. He argues being a VT makes sense while ignoring the rather salient point that three other characters in the DC Universe who were also Robin to Batman were all power-roles. He doesn’t want to argue whether they make sense or not as it undermines his case – if Nightwing and Damien Wayne Robin make sense as Cops then Red Robin doesn’t make sense as VT logically. Furthermore he avoids completely that Stephanie Brown (who was briefly Robin and also Spoiler) was a Doctor which doesn’t make a bit of flavor sense.

Now let’s talk Ghostbusters 2 – The Statue of Liberty as a PGO? Maybe Bulletproof makes a bit of flavor sense (it’s large and pretty much indestructible by the Movie’s standards). Louis Tully as a Tracker? He’s a terrible lawyer and really doesn’t have any part in the movie that you could reliably trace to being a Tracker under Yates’s standards.

Which further cements that assigning characters from flavor to roles can be done in any way the Mod wishes and clearly doesn’t have to ‘make sense’/

Conclusion – Slandaar has to be lying and thus is either a Town Powerrole or scum

And I’ve address this already – his reaction doesn’t make sense.

Slandaar is being voted by Yates and pushed as scummy. Slandaar claims VT Goku.

What is the normal reaction to this from Town? Continuing to vote and push for lynch the person in question as someone claiming VT has no reason to not be lynched if they are scummy.

Yates’s reaction is not this. It is “OMGZ GOKU CAN’T BE VT YOU ARE EITHER LYING TOWN OR LYING SCUM” with an accompanying unvote. Which makes no sense.

A Town PR has zero incentive to claim VT. Because they will likely be lynched with such a claim the vast majority of the time.
B. If he’s a scum why bother unvoting?

All Yates’s reaction served was to allow him an excuse to get off the wagon which eventually leads to claimed PR Acosmist being wagonned to claim.

[Yates]

Whats with this flavor knowledge discussion? All b/c claimed Goku is claiming VT? Mod can give lesser characters the PRs instead just for fun, its his/her game.
Honestly I'm not even reading those walls.

Yes. This is the only tenet of the Yates wagon. Acosmist holds that I am scum because I didn't believe the Goku claim and said I wasn't sure if I would counter [he is assuming there would be a 1 for 1 trade] if there was a counter to be made. He's also ignoring, of course, the part where I also mentioned that Goku could be a fakeclaim. This is where everyone else jumped on my wagon. They think the fact that I believe a Cop claim [Acosmist] easier than a NAME claim [Slandaar] is somehow scummy. MoI, on the other hand, is claiming I'm scummy because I think Goku [as the main character] would be a power role and Slandaar claimed to be a VT. All these walls have been showing evidence of every game that I've been in that either substantiates or refutes my personally stated beliefs.

That's the nut of it. Also, you are the only one that seems to have noticed there is no Krillin counter. Cheers for that.

[Acosmist]

[quote="In post 882, Yates"]Acosmist holds that I am scum because I didn't believe the Goku claim/quote]

This is entirely, 100% false and I am done even entertaining the notion that you could be town. Vote is not moving.

[Acosmist]

woo quotes

[Yates]

@Yates

- What are your reads on Agent Ireland, BK201 and Syndrome ...

Dopey, Lazy and Sneezy. What do you care? According to you I'm scum, right?

That's actually scummy. What the hell, Yates?

Whoa, we agree on something. I've been trying to solicit

anything

from Yates for us to use if/when he dies, and he's offered nothing.

I'm tired and the wagon is OBVIOUSLY not moving. Go read my posts and figure it out yourself as I've already stated my opinions on EVERYONE. I can't lead everyone to water in this game.

[Acosmist]

BK has been really really useless lately, I'm thinking he's a good day 2 candidate.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Honestly I'm not even reading those walls.

@BK - WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTING YATES? YOU SAID THE ONLY REASON YOU WERE NOT IS HE CLAIMED COP. HE DIDN'T CLAIM COP?

Is that clear enough for you BK? Answer the damn question ...

[Yates]

Acosmist holds that I am scum because I didn't believe the Goku claim

and said I wasn't sure if I would counter [he is assuming there would be a 1 for 1 trade] if there was a counter to be made.

This is entirely, 100% false and I am done even entertaining the notion that you could be town. Vote is not moving.

You FUCKING LIAR.

He said GOKU SHOULD NOT COUNTERCLAIM

[Acosmist]

He's doing the "gotta say something but wanna make it tangential so no one can nail me for it" thing at the end here.

[Yates]

Honestly I'm not even reading those walls.

@BK - WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTING YATES? YOU SAID THE ONLY REASON YOU WERE NOT IS HE CLAIMED COP. HE DIDN'T CLAIM COP?

Is that clear enough for you BK? Answer the damn question ...

He did. It's called POST 880, chump.

[syndromeofadown]

I can't lead everyone to water in this game.

No I think the saying is you CAN lead us to water but you can't make us drink... so lead us to the water. I'm thirsty.

[Yates]

He's doing the "gotta say something but wanna make it tangential so no one can nail me for it" thing at the end here.

No. You lied. I called you out on it.

[Acosmist]

Acosmist holds that I am scum because I didn't believe the Goku claim

and said I wasn't sure if I would counter [he is assuming there would be a 1 for 1 trade] if there was a counter to be made.

This is entirely, 100% false and I am done even entertaining the notion that you could be town. Vote is not moving.

You FUCKING LIAR.

He said GOKU SHOULD NOT COUNTERCLAIM

Yep. The first conjunct of your conjunction was false, so the conjunction was false. Doesn't matter if another conjunct was true. BASIC LOGIC WOO

THIS is the kind of post that gives me warm fuzzies about lynching you. Thanks for the validation.

[Acosmist]

He's doing the "gotta say something but wanna make it tangential so no one can nail me for it" thing at the end here.

No. You lied. I called you out on it.

??? BK I was talking about.

And Yates, I have a higher opinion of you than to think you don't know the truth-conditions for conjunction. Hence, my vote stays. FOREVEEEEEEEEER

[syndromeofadown]

No wait I think I screwed up the analogy. I'm not supposed to drink the water until you flip? and then we decide the quality of the water and whether its worth drinking? I don't know someone help me here

[BK201]

I'm not going to be bullied into voting. I think Yates is town for now. I also don't like how Acosmist is lining up lynches, so he can go back tomorrow and quote himself followed by a vote for myself.

[Acosmist]

I'm not going to be bullied into voting. I think Yates is town for now. I also don't like how Acosmist is lining up lynches, so he can go back tomorrow and quote himself followed by a vote for myself.

Tomorrow I will still be King Kai, town cop. What is not to like about

anything

I do?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes. You'll note that the issue that bugged me happened there, and it was an exceedingly odd interaction. Plus, and

you have to recognize this, we do want a decent counter even if we're going to lynch Yates no matter what.

Stop whining, this stuff will be gold if he flips scum or town.

In regards to the bolded – we again clearly disagree and I don’t have a really good feeling seeing it. There is never a need for a ‘good counterwagon’ to someone you think is scum so FMPOV I don’t have to agree at all.

Reading your guys debates of roles, I have to say my feeling is Yates is holding even. I think his point about the Peter/Gozer thing even strengthens his call. The biggest win you have is the John Connor/Sarah Chronicles thing (and I don't know enough about that show to even begin to comment intelligently on who is right) but all of the other ones he brought up I feel hold solid to his perceptions as stated here. Do you really see it as totally hash?

I see it as completely stupid given everything I presented. I don’t think Town Yates would bother sticking so strongly to such a moronic stance. Thus I think it is scum Yates who floated a theory he really doesn’t believe (as evidenced by his hap-hazard and cherry-picked response) and now is stuck defending it when I called him on it.

He can be scum, but I don't think he's scum for his attitude towards the role claim - is that the whole basis of why you think he's scum? Or are we just lynching him because he's the more suspect VT?

I showed exactly why I suspected him when I voted him. Not good enough for you? Just call it gut then … that’s an acceptable reason to vote him right?

Also, what do you think about my call on his replies to Benmage where he said he'd claimed VT even when he hadn't - you see that as an intentional setup trick performed by scum? Or just a VT who thought he had claimed and forgot he hadn't full claimed?

I don’t see it as Town who thought he claimed given nothing in his post as you highlighted even hints at VT status other than his “Krillan has to be VT” theory that came out after the fact (and I clearly think is stupid).

Given my read I think he’s scum who screwed up. Meh.

--

Dopey, Lazy and Sneezy. What do you care? According to you I'm scum, right?

See as Thor said this is scummy. The only reason not to give those reads is if you are Scum worried about leaving relational tells to their partners.

You’ve already claimed you are ‘Town’ who knows he is getting lynched. Why bother to not leave your thoughts on record?

--

[BK201]

Forgot Acosmist claimed King Kai Cop, but still.