Mini 1349: Words with Scum (Game over!)

[whispersilk]

You mean that was't a rhetorical question? Wow.

VOTE: whispersilk

"null at best" implies one or more of the three on the wagon other than amrun is a scumread of yours. Yet you have no vote placed. Stop posturing and keeping your options open, scumbag.

[AurorusVox]

No. I want it in YOUR words. Jeez.

[whispersilk]

This is a bit much coming from someone who has refused to answer pretty much everything I've asked of him.

You think I'm scum because on day 1, I called 3 people "null at best" and you thought it scummy that I wasn't voting any of them, even tho I stated

[whispersilk]

wtf

even tho I stated I would vote someone when I decided who was most scummy.

Other than that I have no idea because you refused to answer anything. Maybe you can fill me in now.

[IceGuy]

Okay. I see I made a mistake there. You still lied about me not collecting though D:<

@ICE, can you give an example

from this game

of MoI doing each of the things you claim he does in this post?

First, he'll latch onto you for whatever you say. He'll pretend he has a genuine read by ramping it up with every post. In reality, he has already decided he'll try and get you lynched, so everything you do or say will be considered proof of your scumminess.

ISO #11 is the start. It continues with ISO #12 and culminates in a FoS in ISO #14. ISO #15 is another attack post, and at ISO #16 he places a vote on me. The only post he has not mentioned me inbetween is ISO #13, where he collects.

He'll then start a war of attrition with a constant stream of wallposts attacking you.

I don't think I have to source that.

- Blatant lie. Rare because it's generally obvious.
- Misrepresentation. This is the most common one, he'll subtly misinterpret whatever you said.

There are obviously a number of instances, but the most egregious example is MoI's claim that scum derailed my wagon and set up the Arugula one.

MoI started this argument with this (on D2, not on D1, by the way):

VOTE: Iceguy

If it wasn't clear that the Arugula wagon was scum-driven to save partner Iceguy to you then I suggest you read again. Classic "Woe is me AtE" followed by lurking by Icescum while a magical wagon appeared suddenly.

It continues:

As to me - if Arugula is indeed Town (which would guess is the case given what I have seen) I'd be confortable lynching in the following -

Iceguy, AV, DCL, Robo, Vijay, LLD

He's basically saying "that was a scum-driven derail and new wagon, but neither the person starting it nor the people ending it are scum". How the fuck does that make any sense?

Well first you are factually incorrect since the person who is in the first slot (and thus ‘started’ the wagon) is DCL. Well low and behold … he’s on my list.

Basically, the entire discussion was about MoI's claim that scum derailed my wagon and set up the Arugula wagon, so of course the debate was centered on this, as I said in my statement. However, MoI suddenly decided to make this about DCL, who voted Arugula long before the entire incident - i.e. completely irrelevant to the point at hand.

Furthermore he’s somehow float that people in the middle of the wagon (aka AV / Robo / Vijay) can’t be scum in some sort of “scum only start or end wagons” line of crap reasoning that isn’t valid at all. Furthermore him trying to link my scum-read on him to the wagon and not to his play is laughable.

I had already explained this - if he thinks those people are scum they could just as well be scum trying to get the new mislynch, but he specifically wanted to lynch me and therefore needed the point that the wagon was scum-driven, not just scum-exploited.

I point this out, and MoI replies with this:

Who originally started the wagon is irrelevant - you said that the wagon was picked up by scum trying to derail mine. DCL voted Arugula long before that happened (at some point, you also voted him)

Could you move the goalposts more scum? Anyone who doesn’t see the following exchange as just that needs new glasses.

Icescum – Why are you ignoring the person who started the wagon?
MoI – Herp a derp … DCL is on that list ..
Icescum – Well it is irrelevant blah blah blah

Again, irrelevant when you claim it was scum-driven.

Yes, those people who propelled the wagon past Icescum are irrelevant to my saying it was scum-driven

I appreciate you not even trying to make arguments that make any sense.

In that case, why mention the wagon at all if it's irrelevant and a wrong statement?

Why scum-hunt for your partners? Lulz …

which is essentially an empty attack.

The point is:

I have several people who unvoted me and voted Arugula on my suspect list.

I think what they were doing was jumping from dying mislynch (mine) to active mislynch (Arugula), and the data is consistent with that.

In regards to the bolded … Iceguy Voting Record –

Whispersilk – is not one of the hoppers …
Arugula – Lulz the mislynch in question … so is clearly not one of the hoppers
MoI – is not one of the hoppers …
2for1 – is not one of the hoppers …
MoI – as above

So you have suspect who did that yet you’ve never voted them. It’s as if you are trying to distance while not actually pressuring any of those ‘claimed’ suspects.

This is another misrepresentation/lie - he somehow claims "is a suspect" means "voted for". I later call him out on that, he just ignores the point.

Your wall says absolutely nothing about my alignment, only about the alignment of others. Yet you continue to push me. Why?

Look … more empty questioning. Anyone with brain cell one can look at my Day 1 posting and see why I called you scum. Yet you pretend that doesn’t exist and me providing even more support for my position is somehow not talking about why you are scum.

I see you have tried to disengage yourself from me by hopping on 2for1 in a scummy fashion (hey look … Iceguy totally dodged answering why he didn’t find Amrun suspect for the exact same thing … he knows he can’t honestly justify it so he ignores … scummy scummy scum scum!). Sucks I will not be deterred huh?

This is an example of a blatant lie: I had already said that the vote on 2m1s was a pressure vote and I had every intention to put my vote back on MoI later, yet he claims I was "disengaging".

[quote- Fake scumtell. He'll correctly state something you actually did, but will simply claim it as proof you're scum although it actually isn't.[/quote]

For this, look back on the ISO #11-#15 he used to build up his attack. His main claim that I was scum was that I didn't vote for every suspect, which is simply not a scumtell.

By this point in the game if you find you think Hoopla shouldn’t have a powerful letter I see no reason you couldn’t justify voting her. I think this is a dodge.

It appears to me that you were just minimizing your actual vote foot-print which is not Pro-Town.

...as if the "vote footprint" would actually be relevant.

- Constantly repeating you're scum. Seriously, read his posts and count the number of occurrences for the word "scum".

Don't need to source that, I think.

---

And now off to the next person who made a "case"!

IG spent all of day one arguing with either me, MoI, Hoopla and to a lesser extent Arugula, calling me scum and Hoop scummy. When he unvoted me and voted Arugula, he then gave a set of reads that suddenly put me, MoI and Hoop into the "probable town" category, and also put Robo as his only other scum read besides Arugula. My problem here is that until this point, IG had never said one word about, or directed at Robo, except in his second post in the game where he asks MoI what he thinks of him. There is absolutely nothing after that - no questions, no pressure, no case and no hint that he thought him scummy before he gave those reads, and he never comments on MoI's response to his question. This might not have troubled me enough to change my read on him again, except I read this post (which I had previously missed while reading the game):

Robo was always my secondary or tertiary suspect, and there was never a chance I could get him lynched. There were always targets that were more likely scum (such as MoI today) and where there was an actual possibility I could get them lynched. Therefore, efforts on Robo would've been wasted.

Yeah right. That is a damned if you do, damned if you don't statement.

If you read her as scum, she appears town and you are wrong.

If you read her as town, you are scum because she is a safe townread.

No, it's a "

when you pull a read out of thin air and it shows you're scummy

" statement.

IG was the first person to post anything after Arugula posted the plan which earned him scum points from many of you, but interestingly enough, he didn't call him scum and he didn't vote for him.

IG's main problem with Arugula appears to be Aru's town read on Amrun, yet IG

didn't

raise this point or attack Aru for it until 4 pages later, in fact, he voted me in-between the post where Aru calls Amrun town and the point where he starts up on Aru.

Also, at this point Aru had just voted for IG. I find this interesting because of something that IG said to me:

The fact that you suddenly discover I'm scummy based on a post from a few pages ago just when I start to attack you doesn't help your case, really.

Hypocritical to say the least.

You got your facts wrong. The correct timeline is:
#86: Arugula posts an Amrun townread.
#193: I attack you for your Amrun townread.
#201: Arugula votes me and reaffirms his Amrun townread.
#342: I vote Arugula.

IG starts off day 2 by voting for MoI. This happens despite the fact that MoI was not on the Arugula wagon, indeed none of his "probable town" reads were on the mislynch. Great, except just 5 posts later he's unvoting MoI and wait for it...voting Robo? - his only other scumread from day 1 who also happened to play a pivotal role in mislynching Arugula. No. Maybe one of his leaning scum reads LLD or Voided - one of whom was also on the mislynch, and the other having her vote on one of his probable town reads ALL DAY? Nope. He's voting 2for1 (a D1 null read) for something he clearly thought scummy enough to make him change his vote from MoI, yet not really scummy enough because just 3 posts after that his vote is put back on MoI There is still absolutely no mention of Robo.

tl;dr: I pressure voted 2m1s and put my vote back on MoI when it became clear it wasn't working. Just as I said when I did it.

So when exactly does IG talk to Robo, his D1 scum read for the first time? Well he says this in response to DCL:

I've been running a gambit.

Not buying it. (Although I like the conclusion that Robo is scum, for unrelated reasons though.)

I see where you're going with it, but town would also call BS on a secret tell as long as you don't give a good reason to not share it.

We still don't really know why IG thinks Robo is scum. All we have to go on is this from D1:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Arugula

Other scum reads: Robocopter
Leaning scum: LLD, Voided
Neutral or need to post more: Amrun, 2m1s, vijay, DCL
Unfortunately probably town: MoI, Hoopla, whisper
Town: AV

Posting to say I fully stand by those reads, and I believe the latest posts of Robo and Arugula confirm them - they definitely read like scum being very annoyed that their mislynch probably won't go through as easily as they hoped.

Again, tl;dr: I have a scumread on Robo and have not followed up because it doesn't like he's going to get lynched, and there are people with stronger scumreads I could get lynched.

Ok, IG obviously thinks that Aru and Robo are scum buddies, so which recent posts and which mislynch is he referring to? Well Aru is voting IG and think's I'm town. So he must be referring to his own wagon, and the only posts from Aru that I can see are directed at Vox. But seeing as we now know that Aru was town, this is all moot. What about Robo? Which of Robo's posts in-between posts 342 and 381 could he mean? This is a very very easy answer because Robo (who has his vote on me) only posted once during this period:

I don't like how Robocopter is reacting.

/facepalm

Alright. There is this thing. It's called reasoning. We use it when we wish to describe and support our statements.

Go back, quote me, and use explanation to describe why I am scum.

I actually have no idea what you're trying to say or prove here. Which was probably your intention.

ICEGUY I THINK YOU'RE TOWN
DONT LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN

Town: AV

Cmon man. You said this like three posts after AV said his. You didn't even make the obvious buddying less obvious.

So, why should I not have a town read on AV?

Or is this a typical case of circular reasoning - "You are scum, you said somebody I think is town is town, therefore you are buddying, therefore you are scum"?

So the post that IG is using to back up his claim that Aru and Robo are scum together is a post where Robo attacks Aru twice. It's also noteworthy that Robo then unvotes me and votes Aru a few posts later and Aru unvoted IG and voted Robo. So, the two buddies are now voting each other. Oooooook. So does IG now consider that perhaps his theory of Aru/Robo might be wrong, or that maybe Robo is bussing Aru? I don't know because with Aru at L-1, IG goes into lurker mode, popping in to tell me that Vox was faking the hammer on Aru and to say this to MoI:

tl;dr: Nah this is actually completely irrelevant.

MoI, all I see is you accusing almost everyone else in the game with pretty much made-up reasons.

(I still think you're town, though.)

Back to lurk mode, then pops in again only after Amrun hammers Aru:

Aside from the fact that I hardly have suspected “everyone”. Thanks for playing.

You suspected LLD, whisper, Aurorus, vijay, Arugula, Hoopla, DCLXVI, and me. That's eight players in a three-scum game.

And you just recently said you'd lynch all of them except for whisper and Hoopla, which you dropped without an explanation.

You have never posted a read on Amrun, Voided, or 2m1s. You've actually completely ignored 2m1s.

In the end, you're giving and retracting scum reads without rhyme or reason, while remaining ambivalent enough so you can safely lynch everybody when time comes.

I think I have to re-think my "MoI is dumbtown" stance.

Here's a hint for next time: You probably should have dropped that point before I actually looked up the facts instead of posting from memory.

Reads change. With good reasons like this one.

So here is the moment where IG reveals why he has a scum read on Robo (noteworthy: this only happens after DCL has connected IG and Robo as possible scum):

Are you implying that I was not running a gambit, or are you saying you disagree with the conclusions drawn from it?

Both. I think you weren't running a gambit, and I disagree that only scum calls out unexplained townreads.

@ICE, also why do you think robo is scum, a quick read-through of your posts throughout day shows that you haven't shared that information with us.

Mostly because of his reactions around my and Arugula's wagon yesterday, also MoI as one scumbuddy focusing on me and Robo almost completely ignoring me fits well, and a heavy dose of gut.

Hold on, that's not what you said yesterday (not that you really said anything about Robo). The only time you mention Robo-scum is when you called him buddies with Aru. You never talk of Robo-MoI scum. You had MoI as probable town (not that stopped you from wasting all your time arguing with him and ignoring Robo completely).

Point?

I explained my read on D2 from a D2 standpoint, not from a D1 standpoint. If somebody flips and/or I change a read this obviously has repercussions for drawing connections.

So your entire point seems to be: I sometimes change reads based on new facts and re-evaluate other reads based on new connections those new reads could bring. Also I don't waste my time with secondary or tertiary scum reads where I don't have a chance to lynch them.

Sounds like a description of good town practices.

[DCLXVI]

Reads coming soon but one thing I wanted to say right now.

The next time someone gets wagoned do not put them at L-1 before everyone collects, if they are scum they can self-hammer and prevent a ton of people from getting tiles.

thank-you.

Now, one other thing. In case anyone didn't notice, voided and LLD were both perfectly fine with putting me at L-1 despite the fact that some players have not collected yet.

LLD qualifies as dumb town, and she did that vote before the subject of scum self-hammering came up.

However, voided did that afterwords with blatant disregard to what I could have done if I was scum. I would say that this shows he is coming from a scum perspective because scum obviously do not have to worry about a townie self hammering. So if he were scum he would know that it would be safe to put me at L-1 which is a move that a townsperson should not make until everyone has collected.

[DCLXVI]

Lots of stuff to go over right now.

Reactions to the gambit being revealed

Spoiler:

Robocopter: Vehemently opposed to it which makes sense regardless of his alignment. His reaction to it is a mostly null tell. However his complete misrepresentations of it do come across as scummy. While it would make sense for someone to defend themselves (regardless of alignment) the fact that he is lying as part of his defense still makes me believe that he is scum.

Voided Mafia: Also very much opposed to it. Like with robo, either he just doesn't get it, or he is scum trying to completely tear it apart. The fact that he is willing to put me to L-1 without concern for me self-hammering is very scummy.

ICEguy: Mentions once that he doesn't like it, but thinks robocopter is scum, yet at the same time keeps a scum read on me. His limited response to it seems to me as if he is just trying to play cool with it and not turn it into a big deal. It just doesn't make any sense. He basically is saying that I am scum making a bs gambit on my partner. Very, very poor response. Tons of scum motivation especially since he is essentially setting himself up to be on my wagon and then on robocopter's wagon the next day.

Reads

Spoiler:

Town:

2minds1soul-Already explained earlier
Whispersilk- it would have been all too easy for her to just join my wagon given that she has considered me scum for a lot of the game.
LLD-Dumb but still town.
MoI- Sorry, your case on ICEguy was good, but I wasn't ready to out my gambit yet.

Null:

Amrun- Need to see catchup post before I say anything more about her.
Aurosvox-scummy for being on my wagon, but the way he abandoned it was townish so overall he is null.
Voidedmafia- The one thing that bothers me the most about him is the fact that he is willing to leave me at L-1 despite the fact that I could eff up the town by self-hammering.

Scum:

Vijay2visandani-So he was the second person to vote me and offered no explanation for it. When questioned he said that he had agreed with someone about me being scummy. One problem, at the time of his vote on me no one had made a case on me. So there was no one for him to agree with. His BS explanation is very scummy.
ICEguy-see first spoiler
Robocopter- already explained

[Robocopter87]

His reaction to it is a mostly null tell.

Seriously man.

You are just all over the place.

Dropped in real quick and saw this post so I haven't read everything yet. Will most likely post some more later.

[whispersilk]

And now off to the next person who made a "case"!

IG spent all of day one arguing with either me, MoI, Hoopla and to a lesser extent Arugula, calling me scum and Hoop scummy. When he unvoted me and voted Arugula, he then gave a set of reads that suddenly put me, MoI and Hoop into the "probable town" category, and also put Robo as his only other scum read besides Arugula. My problem here is that until this point, IG had never said one word about, or directed at Robo, except in his second post in the game where he asks MoI what he thinks of him. There is absolutely nothing after that - no questions, no pressure, no case and no hint that he thought him scummy before he gave those reads, and he never comments on MoI's response to his question. This might not have troubled me enough to change my read on him again, except I read this post (which I had previously missed while reading the game):

Robo was always my secondary or tertiary suspect, and there was never a chance I could get him lynched.

Saying there was never a chance of getting him lynched is completely redundant when you made zero effort to make any kind of case against him or simply state for the rest of the town why you thought he was scum. There is a reason it's called scumhunting. There is a reason you build a case against someone.

There were always targets that were more likely scum (such as MoI today) and where there was an actual possibility I could get them lynched.

I'm talking about yesterday - the day where you thought MoI was town. So who else did you spend time on yesterday... and I mean other than the two people you claimed were scum at first, then said they were town?

Basically, your one firm scumread was the only one you neglected to make a case on the entire day, oh other than mislynching Aru along with your only other scum read.

Therefore, efforts on Robo would've been wasted.

Wasted like when you wasted an inordinate amount of time arguing with MoI, who according to several comments you made throughout the day, was town?

You got your facts wrong. The correct timeline is:
#86: Arugula posts an Amrun townread.
#193: I attack you for your Amrun townread.
#201: Arugula votes me and reaffirms his Amrun townread.
#342: I vote Arugula.

No, I didn't get my facts wrong. I never brought up your attack on me regarding my town read on Amrun, because I was referring to your attack on Aru for the same reason, which did not happen until some 4 pages after he gave his read. But now that you mention it, why did you make such a big deal of it when attacking Aru and not with me?

But thumbs up on completely ignoring my point - which was that you called people scummy for doing things that you were guilty of yourself.

tl;dr: I pressure voted 2m1s and put my vote back on MoI when it became clear it wasn't working. Just as I said when I did it.

Just as you said what? You never said your vote on 2for1 was a pressure vote when you voted him or when you unvoted him.

I doubt your vote was for pressure, because you didn't even give 2for1 a chance to reply before you unvoted him again. In fact, you unvoted him before he even came back to the thread.

Again, tl;dr: I have a scumread on Robo and have not followed up because it doesn't like he's going to get lynched, and there are people with stronger scumreads I could get lynched.

Again, your excuse is that "it doesn't look like he's going to get lynched". That's just lame. Who else besides Robo and MoI is scum?

tl;dr: Nah this is actually completely irrelevant.

Stop saying tl;dr. It's completely relevant. You claimed something, and I've just made a point against your claim. Either refute it or admit your actions.

Reads change. With good reasons like this one.

Convenient how that happened right after Aru was hammered and set things up nicely today for you.

Point?

I explained my read on D2 from a D2 standpoint, not from a D1 standpoint. If somebody flips and/or I change a read this obviously has repercussions for drawing connections.

So your entire point seems to be: I sometimes change reads based on new facts and re-evaluate other reads based on new connections those new reads could bring. Also I don't waste my time with secondary or tertiary scum reads where I don't have a chance to lynch them.

Sounds like a description of good town practices.

Again, you're completely ignored the point. You only mention Robo after DCL made the link between the two of you.

Mostly because of his reactions around my and Arugula's wagon yesterday, also MoI as one scumbuddy focusing on me and Robo almost completely ignoring me fits well, and a heavy dose of gut.

But yesterday while Robo was ignoring you (lol btw, as you've basically admitted to completely ignoring him as a scum read), you had MoI as a town read.

Yesterday you said that you thought Aru and Robo were scum buddies. Now that Aru has been mislynched, it's MoI and Robo. Except you've neglected to make a case against Robo two days running (despite the fact he was on the mislynch wagon), using the excuse that you wouldn't be able to get him lynched, and instead gone after your other sudden convenient scum read.

What kind of response do you expect to get from Robo regarding MoI, and what was really the point in asking it anyway when you think they are scum buddies?

[IceGuy]

Saying there was never a chance of getting him lynched is completely redundant when you made zero effort to make any kind of case against him or simply state for the rest of the town why you thought he was scum. There is a reason it's called scumhunting. There is a reason you build a case against someone.

Why the effort if you can lynch a suspect with a higher priority more easily?

I'm talking about yesterday - the day where you thought MoI was town. So who else did you spend time on yesterday... and I mean other than the two people you claimed were scum at first, then said they were town?

At different people at first, then mostly with defending myself against a clear fake attack.

Basically, your one firm scumread was the only one you neglected to make a case on the entire day, oh other than mislynching Aru along with your only other scum read.

No, that wasn't a "firm" scumread. I only had the Robo scumread relatively late in the day.

Wasted like when you wasted an inordinate amount of time arguing with MoI, who according to several comments you made throughout the day, was town?

What?

No, I didn't get my facts wrong. I never brought up your attack on me regarding my town read on Amrun, because I was referring to your attack on Aru for the same reason, which did not happen until some 4 pages after he gave his read. But now that you mention it, why did you make such a big deal of it when attacking Aru and not with me?

My attack on you is relevant. Arugula mentioned the attack on you as reason for why he didn't think you were scum. That's also why I mentioned it later, honestly I had already forgotten Arugula's early read at that point.

But thumbs up on completely ignoring my point - which was that you called people scummy for doing things that you were guilty of yourself.

And you're calling me scummy for changing reads, when your read on me has changed from town to scum back to town and now to scum again.

Just as you said what? You never said your vote on 2for1 was a pressure vote when you voted him or when you unvoted him.

I doubt your vote was for pressure, because you didn't even give 2for1 a chance to reply before you unvoted him again. In fact, you unvoted him before he even came back to the thread.

Pressure votes are rather silly when announced beforehand - and I announced it later when I moved my vote back to MoI.

Other than that, what could have been the reason of the vote? There is really no alternate interpretation that makes sense.

Again, your excuse is that "it doesn't look like he's going to get lynched". That's just lame. Who else besides Robo and MoI is scum?

As mentioned, Voided and DCL are other suspects.

Stop saying tl;dr.

Then stop posting a bunch of words to state a short point.

It's completely relevant. You claimed something, and I've just made a point against your claim. Either refute it or admit your actions.

Of course it's irrelevant. You stated a number of game happenings in a confusing way and claimed that somehow made me scum. Two suspects of mine voting each other doesn't make me scum, just as stating I have two suspects doesn't mean the entire scum read is based on connections, they can be independently scummy.

Convenient how that happened right after Aru was hammered and set things up nicely today for you.

Actually, reads have changed throughout the game.

Again, you're completely ignored the point. You only mention Robo after DCL made the link between the two of you.

I already mentioned Robo on D1. I explained more when asked.

Mostly because of his reactions around my and Arugula's wagon yesterday, also MoI as one scumbuddy focusing on me and Robo almost completely ignoring me fits well, and a heavy dose of gut.

But yesterday while Robo was ignoring you (lol btw, as you've basically admitted to completely ignoring him as a scum read), you had MoI as a town read.

What's so hard to grasp about the concept of "reads change, flips happen, connections get erased and drawn"?

Yesterday you said that you thought Aru and Robo were scum buddies. Now that Aru has been mislynched, it's MoI and Robo. Except you've neglected to make a case against Robo two days running (despite the fact he was on the mislynch wagon), using the excuse that you wouldn't be able to get him lynched, and instead gone after your other sudden convenient scum read.

You mean the "sudden convenient scum read" that came after a bunch of wallposts and a particularly egregious example where incompetence was no longer an excuse?

What kind of response do you expect to get from Robo regarding MoI, and what was really the point in asking it anyway when you think they are scum buddies?

If you can't answer that question yourself you're a shitty scumhunter.

Whisper, here are three questions for you.

1) When a read changes due to happenings in the game, is that a scumtell?

2) When one revisits an earlier day and starts drawing connections with the new information, is that a scumtell?

3) When one has a rather low-level scum suspect that never has a wagon on him and there is the possibility to lynch a player who is more likely scum, is it a scumtell to focus on the latter?

Actually, a fourth question I just remembered:

4) When one has several scum suspects, can the read be based on anything else but connections between them?

[AurorusVox]

Wait. Dcl why did you call robo second most likely to flip town of those voting for you if you'd run a gambit that caught him out?

[Voidedmafia]

There are obviously a number of instances, but the most egregious example is MoI's claim that scum derailed my wagon and set up the Arugula one.

I don't remember this actually being disproven, though.

The next time someone gets wagoned do not put them at L-1 before everyone collects, if they are scum they can self-hammer and prevent a ton of people from getting tiles.

Depends on when they're run up to L-1.

However, voided did that afterwords with blatant disregard to what I could have done if I was scum. I would say that this shows he is coming from a scum perspective because scum obviously do not have to worry about a townie self hammering. So if he were scum he would know that it would be safe to put me at L-1 which is a move that a townsperson should not make until everyone has collected.

Because at the time, the amount of damage that DCL-scum could do by self-hammering was getting to a point where it wouldn't exactly be a feasible option for him? Nearly 3/4ths of the playerlist have collected by now, so at this point you wouldn't be stopping a whole lot in that regard.

But if you insist:

Vote: IceGuy

Btw, you never explained how a TEN TO ONE W/L RATIO makes a tell shitty.

It exactly is.

...No it isn't.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@DCL – in regards to your reads at Post 806 – the currently most viable wagon of your three scum-reads is Iceguy (with two votes). No-one else is voting Robo and no-one is voting Vijay. Are you accepting of the fact that you are going to be the lynch today since one of your scum-reads is not voting you?

--

Okay. I see I made a mistake there. You still lied about me not collecting though D:<

I made my list based on Quilford’s last VC with flips and collects. I didn’t bother looking after that as I didn’t remember anything afterwards. My mistake.

I note the difference, it is quite extreme. Do you have examples of ICE scum playing like he has here, though?

Wait … I thought 1 game was significant enough meta via Iceguy standards to be considered viable meta. I mean after all … Iceguy’s single game he referenced is similarly old.

Yes, that’s being a smart ass. I wasn’t per-se trying to make a “this is meta argument”. As I said in my post – Iceguy had already once addressed me as Town with his “this is going to be just like 70s Smalltown all over again” without blinking about my possible alignment. Then he begins today voting me and when I repeatedly beat him about the head in our argument he reverts to “Nevermind … here’s a single game that proves MoI is scum … ignore my reference to that other game earlier”. The comparison of the cases was simply icing on the cake .

--

VOTE: IceGuy

IG's AtE yesterday had me completely fooled

I’m having a hard time reconciling this Whisper. Here’s what I am seeing …

Yesterday you vote for Iceguy. He’s wagonned to L-2 and stays there for a bit before he begins his AtE and lurking.

You unvote and call him Town for “Townie reactions”. Yet now you are effectively saying Arugula’s reaction (keeping posting under pressure) was a Town reaction.

And today you call for a slowdown on DCL (who you said was a general scum read because he has had Townie reactions under fire. And then you completely re-assess Iceguy and vote him when there is no wagon momentum.

Do you expect Iceguy to actually get lynched over DCL? Frankly I’d rather Iceguy hang than DCL as I think the case on him is much stronger. But I do have a scum read on DCL and am not about to derail the wagon especially since the links between then (both calling each other scum today without voting each other) point to partnership when Iceguy isn’t really viable as a counter-wagon.

[IceGuy]

I don't remember this actually being disproven, though.

MoI disproved it himself, actually - he doesn't have a scumread on anybody relevant except for people who jumped on Arugula's wagon when it gained steam.

...No it isn't.

Then explain it in your own words.

[whispersilk]

Why the effort if you can lynch a suspect with a higher priority more easily?

So when and why did Arugula become higher priority?

At different people at first, then mostly with defending myself against a clear fake attack.

A fake attack from whom?

No, that wasn't a "firm" scumread. I only had the Robo scumread relatively late in the day.

Did you suspect Robo when you asked MoI what he thought of him?

Wasted like when you wasted an inordinate amount of time arguing with MoI, who according to several comments you made throughout the day, was town?

What?

You claimed that making a case against Robo would have been a waste of time. So I've asked you would that have been a waste of time in the same way that you wasted a significant portion of yesterday arguing with a town read?

My attack on you is relevant. Arugula mentioned the attack on you as reason for why he didn't think you were scum. That's also why I mentioned it later, honestly I had already forgotten Arugula's early read at that point.

So you went from wanting to lynch me, and possibly Hoopla, to calling us both probable town, to then jumping on the Arugula wagon after your scum read Robo kicked it up the arse?

So why did you vote for Arugula again? I don't recall you giving a reason when you voted.

And you're calling me scummy for changing reads, when your read on me has changed from town to scum back to town and now to scum again.

And with good reason, which is something your actions are sorely lacking.

Pressure votes are rather silly when announced beforehand - and I announced it later when I moved my vote back to MoI.

Other than that, what could have been the reason of the vote? There is really no alternate interpretation that makes sense.

You mean you announced your pressure vote in this post?

And no, I didn't disengage from you.

I voted 2m1s to show him his behavior was inacceptable and to possible get a reaction, which succeeded.

I moved my vote back to you when it came back to lynching actual scum and not shitty lurkhydras.

A reaction from whom?

As mentioned, Voided and DCL are other suspects.

Really, so with DCL being a scum suspect at L-1 and your MoI wagon going nowhere, you probably intend to hammer DCL once everyone has picked their letters, right?

Of course it's irrelevant. You stated a number of game happenings in a confusing way and claimed that somehow made me scum. Two suspects of mine voting each other doesn't make me scum, just as stating I have two suspects doesn't mean the entire scum read is based on connections, they can be independently scummy.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Arugula

Other scum reads: Robocopter
Leaning scum: LLD, Voided
Neutral or need to post more: Amrun, 2m1s, vijay, DCL
Unfortunately probably town: MoI, Hoopla, whisper
Town: AV

Posting to say I fully stand by those reads, and I believe the latest posts of Robo and Arugula confirm them -

they definitely read like scum being very annoyed that their mislynch probably won't go through as easily as they hoped.

You wording clearly illustrates that you thought they were scum together, and you said "mislynch", not mislynches, like they were working together to get one person lynched. You also said they had made posts which portrayed them as annoyed. So my reason for quoting the one and only post that Robo made during this time frame, was because in that post Robo attacks Aru TWICE. How did attacking the person you thought was his scum buddy lead you to believe he was annoyed scum?

Actually, reads have changed throughout the game.

What was it exactly made you think MoI was scum after an entire day of fighting with him while calling him probable town?

Again, you're completely ignored the point. You only mention Robo after DCL made the link between the two of you.

I already mentioned Robo on D1. I explained more when asked.

Mostly because of his reactions around my and Arugula's wagon yesterday, also MoI as one scumbuddy focusing on me and Robo almost completely ignoring me fits well, and a heavy dose of gut.

But yesterday while Robo was ignoring you (lol btw, as you've basically admitted to completely ignoring him as a scum read), you had MoI as a town read.

What's so hard to grasp about the concept of "reads change, flips happen, connections get erased and drawn"?

Nothing. My problem is this: your "connections" might be getting erased and drawn, but the one constant is Robo - someone you've said two words to all game and have failed to attack in any way shape or form. My problem is that you're calling him scum while placing no pressure and going after people you claim are his buddies while at the same time trying to imply that just because you two people are scum doesn't mean they are scum together. Give me a break.

Also, the fact that you call Robo scum distancing by completely ignoring you, while his partner MoI tunnels you, is ridiculous considering you've been ignoring him to the same extent.

You mean the "sudden convenient scum read" that came after a bunch of wallposts and a particularly egregious example where incompetence was no longer an excuse?

Could you please quote exactly what MoI did or said to make you think he was scum.

Whisper, here are three questions for you.

1) When a read changes due to happenings in the game, is that a scumtell?

No, unless the read changes without good reason, or seems convenient and well timed.

2) When one revisits an earlier day and starts drawing connections with the new information, is that a scumtell?

It is when you completely ignore the constant (Robo) and go after the alleged connections (one who flipped town), just like you're doing.

3) When one has a rather low-level scum suspect that never has a wagon on him and there is the possibility to lynch a player who is more likely scum, is it a scumtell to focus on the latter?

You didn't focus on Aru. You spent all day arguing with MoI, me and a bit with Hoopla. You attacked Aru when it was convenient for you to jump on his wagon which had picked up again.

So what is your point in asking this question when it doesn't apply to my point against you?

Actually, a fourth question I just remembered:

4) When one has several scum suspects, can the read be based on anything else but connections between them?

Of course. Some scum are perfectly capable of distancing/buddying, so reads are often based on other things. What is your point?

[DCLXVI]

Wait. Dcl why did you call robo second most likely to flip town of those voting for you if you'd run a gambit that caught him out?

Because I was continuing the gambit. I've explained that already.

[Voidedmafia]

I don't remember this actually being disproven, though.

MoI disproved it himself, actually - he doesn't have a scumread on anybody relevant except for people who jumped on Arugula's wagon when it gained steam.

The only people on the Aru wagon he said he didn't have scumreads/suspisions on were me and Amrun, the L-1 and hammer votes. That's not disproving it.

...No it isn't.

Then explain it in your own words.[/quote]
The point was about the content of the posts, not their length.

Still waiting for that explanation, DCL.

[DCLXVI]

Still waiting for that explanation, DCL.

of what?

[Voidedmafia]

Yknow, the part I've put in ALL-CAPS twice now?

[DCLXVI]

TEN TO ONE W/L RATIO makes a tell shitty.

Oh that?

I didn't use the same tell as llama so that question is both pointless and stupid.

[DCLXVI]

In fact let me put it this way in all caps so you will get it.

I DID NOT USE THE SAME TELL AS LLAMA. ITS PRETTY OBVIOUS. The tell llama used was "first to claim vt is town" so it is pretty frickin obvious that is not what I was doing.

happy now?

[Voidedmafia]

In fact let me put it this way in all caps so you will get it.

I DID NOT USE THE SAME TELL AS LLAMA. ITS PRETTY OBVIOUS. The tell llama used was "first to claim vt is town" so it is pretty frickin obvious that is not what I was doing.

happy now?

You miss the point.

When you explained your gambit. you SPECIFICALLY SAID that Llama used a "shitty tell" (which was the vt claim tell) to say Thomith was town. However, Llama stated post-game that the tell, up until that game, was successful TEN TIMES WITHOUT ANY PRIOR FAILURES! There is no possible way that a 10-1 record could be construed to show a tell is shitty. Yet you claimed to say that it was shitty only because 302 happened to be the first (and currently only) game where Llama's attempt to apply the tell actually failed, thus placing an inordinate amount of bias in your application of the gambit.

Of course, I'm not suddenly saying that your "gambit" is suddenly good, but the basis for trying to attempt it has effectively been pulled out from underneath you.

[DCLXVI]

10-1 sounds good but it isn't. The majority of players in a game are going to be vt's so its fairly obvious that vt is going to be claimed a lot at first.

It actually is a bad tell that looks a lot better than it actually is.

[DCLXVI]

Frankly I’d rather Iceguy hang than DCL as I think the case on him is much stronger.

I agree. I'd much rather see ICEguy hang then myself.

VOTE: ICEguy

feel free to join me on the wagon. It's not as if we are running out of time.

Deadline hits in 8 days, 9 hours, 3 minutes.

[IceGuy]

So when and why did Arugula become higher priority?

When his wagon became the prime wagon (except for me).

A fake attack from whom?

MoI.

Did you suspect Robo when you asked MoI what he thought of him?

When?

You claimed that making a case against Robo would have been a waste of time. So I've asked you would that have been a waste of time in the same way that you wasted a significant portion of yesterday arguing with a town read?

This was not "wasted".

So you went from wanting to lynch me, and possibly Hoopla, to calling us both probable town, to then jumping on the Arugula wagon after your scum read Robo kicked it up the arse?

I had various scum reads in the beginning. I had different scum reads later.

So far, you have completely ignored why when I change reads it's scummy, but when you change reads regarding me it's perfectly fine.

So why did you vote for Arugula again? I don't recall you giving a reason when you voted.

Because I had a scum read on him.

And with good reason, which is something your actions are sorely lacking.

Non-answer.

You mean you announced your pressure vote in this post?

What are you referring to with "this post"?

A reaction from whom?

2m1s obviously, maybe MoI.

Really, so with DCL being a scum suspect at L-1 and your MoI wagon going nowhere, you probably intend to hammer DCL once everyone has picked their letters, right?

Correct (although DCL is not at L-1 anymore).

You wording clearly illustrates that you thought they were scum together, and you said "mislynch", not mislynches, like they were working together to get one person lynched.

Irrelevant semantics. If two people are scum, they must be scum together because of the known setup.

You also said they had made posts which portrayed them as annoyed. So my reason for quoting the one and only post that Robo made during this time frame, was because in that post Robo attacks Aru TWICE. How did attacking the person you thought was his scum buddy lead you to believe he was annoyed scum?

"Annoyed" as in "annoyed their easy mislynch is going away". Also, how is the whole "Robo attacks Arugula" stuff relevant? Do you immediately drop two scumreads when they attack each other? Never heard of bussing especially as an Arugula wagon wasn't completely outlandish?

What was it exactly made you think MoI was scum after an entire day of fighting with him while calling him probable town?

His later behavior which could no longer be explained by incompetence.

Nothing. My problem is this: your "connections" might be getting erased and drawn, but the one constant is Robo - someone you've said two words to all game and have failed to attack in any way shape or form. My problem is that you're calling him scum while placing no pressure and going after people you claim are his buddies while at the same time trying to imply that just because you two people are scum doesn't mean they are scum together. Give me a break.

No, Robo is not the "one constant". The Robo scumread came relatively late on D1 and he was always a minor suspect as compared to others such as Arugula and MoI. Is that so hard to grasp?

Also, the fact that you call Robo scum distancing by completely ignoring you, while his partner MoI tunnels you, is ridiculous considering you've been ignoring him to the same extent.

That was an associative tell. What you're doing is again circular reasoning.

Could you please quote exactly what MoI did or said to make you think he was scum.

Look at the posts I made regarding him.

1) When a read changes due to happenings in the game, is that a scumtell?

No, unless the read changes without good reason, or seems convenient and well timed.[/quote]

Well timed such as your sudden change to "IceGuy is scum" when a DCL lynch was imminent? Doesn't that look like "well timed"?

2) When one revisits an earlier day and starts drawing connections with the new information, is that a scumtell?

It is when you completely ignore the constant (Robo) and go after the alleged connections (one who flipped town), just like you're doing.

What? That doesn't actually make sense.

3) When one has a rather low-level scum suspect that never has a wagon on him and there is the possibility to lynch a player who is more likely scum, is it a scumtell to focus on the latter?

You didn't focus on Aru. You spent all day arguing with MoI, me and a bit with Hoopla. You attacked Aru when it was convenient for you to jump on his wagon which had picked up again.

Can't you distinguish between "attacking" and "responding to attacks"? That the only reason I posted so much with regard to MoI and you was to defend myself from attacks, but my attacking went elsewhere?

Actually, a fourth question I just remembered:

4) When one has several scum suspects, can the read be based on anything else but connections between them?

Of course. Some scum are perfectly capable of distancing/buddying, so reads are often based on other things. What is your point?

My point is that your answer here contradicts your "case" on me above. You claim my scumreads are made invalid by connections between them.