Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 1.11 - As of post 375

Greenknight (2) - triangle123, Starbuck
jasonT1981 (5) - Tierce, Iecerint, CryMeARiver, kortul, GreyICE
Acosmist (1) - T-Bone
Starbuck (1) - Greenknight
T-Bone (2) - Korlash, Acosmist

Not Voting (2) - jasonT1981, Zang

The Current deadline is July 17, 2012 at 10:00 am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-07-17 10:00:00).

With 13 active votes - 7 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

Mod Notes -

Korlash will be V/LA from July 7 to July 15.
CryMeARiver will be V/LA from July 8 to July 14.

[jasonT1981]

Grey: If Tierce is scum, why are you on the wagon she's been pushing all day?

Jason needs to fucking die.

And you need to actually do something productive other than shout SCUM... DIE!!!

[T-Bone]

Why the fuck does a miller claim in another game matter here?

[greenknight]

Grey: If Tierce is scum, why are you on the wagon she's been pushing all day?

Jason needs to fucking die.

What, this is a policy lynch now? @352 you don't think he's going to flip scum.

[jasonT1981]

because im pushing him.

[Starbuck]

Grey: If Tierce is scum, why are you on the wagon she's been pushing all day?

Jason needs to fucking die.

What, this is a policy lynch now? @352 you don't think he's going to flip scum.

I think I finally found something that green and I agree on.

[greenknight]

- Acos #326 - No, complaining about insults isn't scummy.

I said it was...where?

T-Bone's shtick where he can make walls attacking me and I can't refute his pathetic cases is hilariously scummy. Also, we're all adults. Stop whining about insults. Don't post illiterate nonsense if you have thin skin.

I read this as connected because the only thing he's dismissing out of hand in #302 is the insults.

[GreyICE]

because im pushing him.

You forgot you think I'm town again.

Just fucking curl up and die.

[Iecerint]

From what I am lead to believe. GrayICE pulls shit like this a lot.

But if you think he does it as town, why did that make you want him to 1/1 with Zang? I would think that it would make you *less* likely to make such a move, if anything.

[jasonT1981]

because im pushing him.

You forgot you think I'm town again.

Just fucking curl up and die.

I never once said you were town, prick face.

[jasonT1981]

Grey: If Tierce is scum, why are you on the wagon she's been pushing all day?

Jason needs to fucking die.

What, this is a policy lynch now? @352 you don't think he's going to flip scum.

Also, answer this, Gray.

[GreyICE]

Hey Jason

If I lynch you I'm lynching scum.

Good night.

[kortul]

Let's see another example of such logic. Iecrint initially voted Jason because "he looks bad". No new reasons were introduced later - he still looks bad and we should lynch him. This may be scummy regardless of Jason's alignment (i.e. he may be bussing his scummate for towncred, or pushing a mislynch without telling reasons on why Jason is scum).

The point of my verbiage is to establish a contrast between your treatment of Jason and Starbuck's treatment of Jason. Starbuck's is such that lynching her on those grounds without a Jason flip does not make logical sense. Yours is such that lynching you before Jason may make sense depending upon other factors (e.g., subjective scuminess of Jason v Kortul).

That's what i meant as " Present your thoughts about someone as a fact and paint that "fact" with scummy intentions - and lo and behold, we have a scum." You just described the next step in such reasoning - Y is now scummy regardless of X alignment, and if X becomes less popular let's lynch Y. Just read my example about you, read your answer, substitute kortul with Iecrint, and you will get the picture. Giving such examples just to prove something (like establish contrast) is bad practice, imho.

The big thing was pushing a 1/1 on Zang/GreyICE, which is a scummy thing to do if scum knows that both players are town (and I had assumed that they were both town because I took ICE's unclaim at face value). I know that you noticed this because you pointed it out as a pro-town thing that Jason did prior to GreyICE unclaiming.

I see. That makes sense, since you took the "Zang is town" as a second claim. Now, that we have no idea about Grey and Zang alignments, unless both of them are your town reads are your reasons for voting Jason still the same?

[kortul]

I have seen Gray fake claim a few times day 1 I believe (GB Mafia being the latest with Miller lcaim I believe) and wanted to see how far he woyuld take it. Would he be prepered to keep it up when challanged or let it fade when challanged proving he was talking shite. I believed the latter.. and was correct.

Were those fake claims about alignments of other players? Because there's difference, and in our scenario i still think that simple question would be more appropriate than pushing. And maybe you remember, were he town when he did fake claims before?

I don't like Grey flip-flopping so much. His signal to noise ratio is real low, and i cannot distinguish the difference between real scumhunting and personal attacks now. Grey, can you explain your read on Tierce, why did you abandon your scum-read on Jason, and then switched to him again?

@Tierce, where are you? You definitely know both Jason and Grey better, i want to hear your opinion on this mess.

[Tierce]

@Tierce, where are you? You definitely know both Jason and Grey better, i want to hear your opinion on this mess.

I'm late replying to this game, there's where I am. Expect another (*groan*) catch-up today after I get some fresh air.

[GreyICE]

Well kortul, what do you think of our goddess Tiece's content?

She's posting right there.

She tries and locks me to the Jason wagon by saying me voting someone else isn't useful. She implies it's scummy.
Now you hop in when I push tierce, and attack me.

You two have a quicktopic somewhere that I should know about?

[kortul]

Ok, will be waiting. Meanwhile i had time to do an ISO on

Acosmist

. My read is neutral, slightly leaning scum. It is more like a general impression and disagreements over certain actions and players.

His vote was on greenknight from RVS, yet the reason why it stayed there he gave only after being questioned about it. The reason itself feels like exaggeration to me: "greenknight is freaking out about GreyICE. Seems like he wanted to railroad Zang and use GreyICE's "claim" as an excuse. Then the rug was pulled out from under him.". Using a strange/illogical tell may be viewed as scummy (personal choice for everyone), but using it to railroad? If greenknight didn't believe his own tell, do you think he thought that 4 other players will find it a good scum tell and quicklynch Zang? So, either he believed his own tell, and then his vote was pretty normal, adding pressure to scum read, or he didn't believe it, didn't expect others to believe it, then it was some kind of pushing or reaction test, but not railroading. Anyway, that's my personal opinion about the "railroad" thing, and for all i know Acosmist may believe it, like green believed his tell.

I don't like that wall on T-Bone, after so many previous concise posts. I finally managed to read through it, following all the quotes and links, and feel that this was overreaction, and don't see the reason for this. The comment on T-Bone post 127 is way off (misunderstanding?), the rest of the answers are factually true, still there were more sarcasm than facts. To be fair, T-Bone also misread post 141, since Acosmist was talking to Starbuck there, not greenknight (about the "point stands", etc). Maybe you two should reread each other and reassess your reads?

[kortul]

Grey, in case you forgot, you switched back and forth like 4 times within two days, without really explaining why. And pushing Jason atm, not Tierce.

[kortul]

At least you've answered what you find scummy about Tierce, at least it looks close enough to be the answer. Since someone else in question was me, i actually agree that voting me isn't useful, because i am not a scum.

Can you answer about Jason as well?

[GreyICE]

Hey Kortul

What's your read on Tierce?

[Zang]

Not a single one of Jason's posts reads with anything resembling genuine feeling. Not genuine defense, not genuine frustration, not genuine confusion, not genuine conviction, not genuine anything.

Last post said his feeling was that Zang was town due to his reaction to my claim.

Zang... the person he was voting... and wanted me to 1v1... was probably town... due to my claim.

Specifically, what about it is not genuine? And as scum, wouldn't he be just as genuinely frustrated and confused as town?

His vote on me was also pretty clearly RVS.

Vote: JasonT1981

No

This is incredibly scummy, You are voting for someone that you just said would probably flip town and you are refusing to post your reads.

Hey Jason

If I lynch you I'm lynching scum.

Good night.

This is a complete contradiction of what you said before.

[kortul]

Grey, as long as you behaving normally i am open for dialogue. But you should know my answer already, i said at least twice that Tierce is one of my town reads. Based on post 267, which i consider town tell, her consistent stance on Jason and general quiet and logical style of play. There is one thing that i don't like - periods of inactivity here while being active in other games, but i have no idea whether it is normal for those who play in many games at once, will probably meta her after day 1 to find out whether this is true in other games.

Now, can you answer questions about Jason?

[Iecerint]

The lady I steal internet from has turned off her wireless or something as of a few days ago, so I may have sporadic access for the next few days.

[Iecerint]

That's what i meant as " Present your thoughts about someone as a fact and paint that "fact" with scummy intentions - and lo and behold, we have a scum." You just described the next step in such reasoning - Y is now scummy regardless of X alignment, and if X becomes less popular let's lynch Y.

Some things are just plain scummy. Saying as much is not a fallacy.

Now, that we have no idea about Grey and Zang alignments, unless both of them are your town reads are your reasons for voting Jason still the same?

I still think they're both town, so it doesn't change it much. It does make it weaker, though, so I am entertaining other possibilities (e.g., ICE's past points on Kortul->Jason, which hold up even if Jason is scum).

[MagnaofIllusion]

RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ....

Aka this is a bump