Mini 1349: Words with Scum (Game over!)

[Amrun]

1. Disagree

2. And you still don't address your meta turnaround.

3. All the other points are silly and/or semantics, as I said. Only that one point is valid. I said exactly what I meant. Restating your silly points doesn't make them less silly or less of a stretch. I think he is also engaging in semantics, but it is, at least, more common for him. I have never seen you do so.

p-edit:

1. "Her posting looks town" is a totally valid answer, especially since explaining further than that is extremely anti-town and I commend him for not saying more. Have you forgotten that HE FLIPPED TOWN? You STILL say it was faked? Hello, stretch! The way you questioned his townread and attacked him for it is still scummy.

2. No, that wasn't your point. You said exactly the thing I quoted, and then 10,000 other things that weren't nearly as memorable. That was intentional. What is your read on whisper?

[Quilford]

Game Board

Spoiler: Amrun's collect

Amrun collects tile B3... (curse you, that was MY top of page)

Spoiler: Final Board & Activity Log

Code: Select all

Voidedmafia flipped tile A4, revealing a D.
AurorusVox flipped tile G6, revealing a W.
IceGuy flipped tile H6, revealing an O.
DLCXVI flipped tile B6, revealing an M.
MagnaofIllusion flipped tile B5, revealing an N.
vijay2vasandani flipped tile I4, revealing a G.
2minds1soul took tile I1, collecting an unknown...
Robocopter87 flipped tile F4, revealing an I. 
Lady Lambdadelta flipped tile D3, revealing an R.
Lady Lambdadelta took tile D3, collecting an R.
Robocopter87 took tile I5, collecting an unknown...
IceGuy took tile F4, collecting an I.
MagnaofIllusion took tile E1, collecting an unknown...
Voidedmafia took tile A4, collecting a D.
AurorusVox took tile I4, collecting a G.
whispersilk flipped tile B3, revealing an H.
DCLXVI took tile B6, collecting an M.
Amrun flipped tile F3, revealing an S.
vijay2vasandani took tile H6, collecting an O.
whispersilk took tile B4, collecting an unknown...
Amrun took tile B3, collecting an H.

MagnaofIllusion has used both his daily flip and collect.
AurorusVox has used both his daily flip and collect.
IceGuy has used both his daily flip and collect.
Lady Lambdadelta has used both her daily flip and collect.
2minds1soul have used their daily collect.
Robocopter87 has used both his daily flip and collect.
whispersilk has used both her daily flip and collect.
DCLXVI has used both his daily flip and collect.
vijay2vasandani has used both his daily flip and collect.
Amrun has used both her daily flip and collect.
Voidedmafia has used both his daily flip and collect. 

--- DAY 1 ------------------------------------------------
MagnaofIllusion flipped tile E5, revealing an R.
Hoopla flipped tile K1, revealing a C.
Voidedmafia flipped tile K6, revealing an X.
Lady Lambdadelta flipped tile D4, revealing an N.
Lady Lambdadelta took tile D4, collecting an N.
Robocopter87 flipped tile J2, revealing a P.
Robocopter87 took tile J2, collecting a P.
IceGuy flipped tile A1, revealing a P.
vijay2vasandani flipped tile C4, revealing an R.
2minds1soul flipped tile H4, revealing a C.
AurorusVox flipped tile A6, revealing a T.
Amrun took tile A2, collecting an unknown...
DLCXVI flipped tile F6, revealing a D.
Amrun flipped tile B2, revealing a V.
Arugula flipped tile D2, revealing an M.
Hoopla took tile E5, collecting an R.
whispersilk flipped tile G2, revealing a Z.
AurorusVox took tile A1, collecting a P.
MagnaofIllusion took tile B2, collecting a V.
Voidedmafia took tile C4, collecting an R.
vijay2vasandani took tile K1, collecting a C.
whispersilk took tile D2, collecting an M.
2minds1soul took tile H4, collecting a C.
Arugula took tile C6, collecting an unknown...
DCLXVI took tile A6, collecting a T.
IceGuy took tile F6, collecting a D.

Day 2

MagnaofIllusion

(4) whispersilk, IceGuy, Robocopter87, AurorusVox

IceGuy

(4) Voidedmafia, DCLXVI, MagnaofIllusion, Amrun

DCLXVI

(2) vijay2vasandani, Lady Lambdadelta

Not Voting

(1) 2minds1soul

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. 

Deadline hits in (expired on 2012-07-19 01:18:09).

MoI has declared Limited Access during weekends.

[Amrun]

WAIT... 2minds1soul collected without flipping!

[IceGuy]

1. Disagree

Explain.

2. And you still don't address your meta turnaround.

I just did - illogical attacks by MoI are a nulltell for him, completely going off the deep end is a scumtell. He started with illogical attacks and digged himself deeper and deeper, and at the end we have gems as his last two posts which town-MoI would never post.

3. All the other points are silly and/or semantics, as I said. Only that one point is valid. I said exactly what I meant. Restating your silly points doesn't make them less silly or less of a stretch. I think he is also engaging in semantics, but it is, at least, more common for him. I have never seen you do so.

You keep claiming they're "silly and/or semantics", but you don't actually seem to have read them.

1. "Her posting looks town" is a totally valid answer, especially since explaining further than that is extremely anti-town and I commend him for not saying more. Have you forgotten that HE FLIPPED TOWN? You STILL say it was faked? Hello, stretch! The way you questioned his townread and attacked him for it is still scummy.

It is not a valid answer when other (later) townreads are explained more in detail. And yes, I stand by my "fake read" assumption - early, fake reads are sometimes employed by town to appear useful when they don't have any real reads. I remembered when I first joined a non-Newbie game and got lynched on D1 because I honestly said "I don't really have reads". After that and before I was better at forming reads, I just made some up in the beginning.

2. No, that wasn't your point. You said exactly the thing I quoted, and then 10,000 other things that weren't nearly as memorable. That was intentional. What is your read on whisper?

Click the link in my quote - I asked her the question you quoted, she replied with an answer I sort-of expected (it was kind of obvious she would not reply with "yes, you're totally right and I'm scum", so I could reply with the DCL/MoI comparison. That's rhetorics, I'll freely admit to that, but that's not misrepresentation.

I'm undecided about whisper since I can make as little of her turnaround as you.

[Amrun]

I have read everything, and trying to discredit me by saying I haven't is just rude. And there's not much to explain about disagreeing - I just do. Be more specific.

Yes, you asked whisper that question, fully aware that asking a misrepresentative question (and you just admitted that it was, despite disagreeing) would lead to a certain type of answer from her to which you could reply. You are NOT interested in probing whispersilk in regards to her alignment - you are interested in making yourself look good and others look bad. That was my entire point. Thanks for proving it for me.

[IceGuy]

I have read everything, and trying to discredit me by saying I haven't is just rude. And there's not much to explain about disagreeing - I just do. Be more specific.

So, what do you disagree with in those paragraphs:

Uhm, no. I have had a pretty consistent scumread on him since the end of D1, and I did not twist his posts into something scummy.

You will see a small difference - when I'm up against MoI, MoI will somehow claim every single line of my preceding post makes me confirmed scum, while I only take points that are legitimately scummy.

Do you want to deny I have a consistent scumread on him? That I have had it since the end of D1? And so on, and so forth.

Yes, you asked whisper that question, fully aware that asking a misrepresentative question (and you just admitted that it was, despite disagreeing) would lead to a certain type of answer from her to which you could reply. You are NOT interested in probing whispersilk in regards to her alignment - you are interested in making yourself look good and others look bad. That was my entire point. Thanks for proving it for me.

So your point is ... I made my point clearer to the other players.

As I said, I don't see a problem with using rhetoric. Scumhunting is well and good, but you need to communicate your results to the other players too.

[Amrun]

You DID twist his posts into something scummy, and that is not a difference; you're both doing that.

You just did it again. That's clearly NOT my point. My point is that you go about expressing your points in a disingenuous way designed to make yourself look good and everyone else look bad. That's scum motivated.

[IceGuy]

You DID twist his posts into something scummy, and that is not a difference; you're both doing that.

Could you give an example for that?

You just did it again. That's clearly NOT my point. My point is that you go about expressing your points in a disingenuous way designed to make yourself look good and everyone else look bad. That's scum motivated.

I think we are saying the same thing here. The only difference is that I consider presentation as a good general trait, and you consider it as a scum trait.

[Amrun]

You say you only use things that are legitimately scummy, but as we've covered earlier, I only consider one of the points you brought up legitimate.

It's not about presentation, IceGuy. You are clearly concerned about how you are perceived in this game; every single post drips with it. That's a trait found FAR more often in scum.

[IceGuy]

You say you only use things that are legitimately scummy, but as we've covered earlier, I only consider one of the points you brought up legitimate.

It's not about presentation, IceGuy. You are clearly concerned about how you are perceived in this game; every single post drips with it. That's a trait found FAR more often in scum.

To give an answer to both of your points...

Why don't you give an example?

If those traits are so pervasive they're in almost every post, where is your problem with pulling out one of those posts and explaining your point?

Is it because the whole house of cards would fall apart? Because it would force you to commit to a specific position I could disprove instead of throwing out accusations?

[Amrun]

I literally just gave you like 5 examples. What the fuck are you smoking.

[IceGuy]

I literally just gave you like 5 examples. What the fuck are you smoking.

I don't see any examples. Link and/or quote would be appreciated.

(I know you referred to the whispersilk rhetorical question, but that's not something that's relevant regarding me and MoI.)

[Amrun]

All the other points are silly and/or semantics, as I said. Only that one point is valid. I said exactly what I meant.

You gave a laundry list of things you said MoI was scummy for, and I said I only find ONE of those valid. That means the REST are invalid stretches. Come on, now - you have to be doing this on purpose.

[IceGuy]

You gave a laundry list of things you said MoI was scummy for, and I said I only find ONE of those valid. That means the REST are invalid stretches. Come on, now - you have to be doing this on purpose.

Okay, then explain why they're invalid.

[Robocopter87]

Ice's nitpicking is ridiculous.

[IceGuy]

It's less nitpicking and more trying to get Amrun to make definite statements.

She's basically throwing out accusations I can't defend myself against.

"You did X somewhere in the game."
- "No, I didn't."
"Yes you did!"

"Everything you said about Y is invalid."
- "No, it's valid."
"No, it's not!"

[Voidedmafia]

That is quite the coincidence, though. Even ignoring DCL's wagon (since at the time it was considered to be another wagon on scum), should this kick off this would be the second time IceGuy's been saved. Incidentally, he's being saved by the same people who went to Arug yesterday: himself, robo, and AVox.

That's too similar to just be coincidence.

When the wagon on DCL started I had all of two votes: you and MoI. For the entire day, I never had more than those, and DCL had a similar number. Also, per definition, every wagon is a wagon where all players consider the player they're voting scum.

I thought I just said I was ignoring DCL's wagon?

Also, there is such a thing as voting townreads.

Later, you claim the people that "saved" me were myself, Robo and AV. Including myself in that list is actually rather pointless since I won't vote for myself, and I had a scumread on Arugula before I voted him, and a scumread on MoI long before I voted him (I don't think I need to prove that).

Well, okay, don't include yourself, but you can't deny that both Robo and AV began putting votes onto a counterwagon to yours for Arug's wagon and now MoI's growing one.

Though, didn't Whisper already point out you did have a townread on him at one point

More interesting is however that there are not the convenient two people (aside from me) involved, as you claimed, but

four

: whisper, Robocopter87, AurorusVox and vijay2vasandani.

Whisper did not vote Arug (though she is voting MoI), and vijay is more of the follower to robo and/or AVox, really. I'm not sure if vijay is badtown or badscum yet.

Considering you think I'm scum, you must think that two scum are amongst them. So: Who are they, and what makes their behavior scummy as opposed to the others' behavior?

You should already know one of them and why, the other is kinda pending.

well, uh, he did have you as another scum, so why is it bad that he's simply going to another wagon on scum?

What?

MoI had you and DCL as scumreads. With DCl's wagon beginning to derail at the time, why is it scummy for him to jump back to you, since again both of you are scumreads to him?

P-EDIT: Ignored my question. Answer it.

That question assumes I'm not currently voting one of you, but I'm voting MoI.

True. Retracted, though I would've liked to know the answer to this.

Also, IG vs. Amrun is getting stupid, as is IG's attempts to refute Amrun.

I think we are saying the same thing here. The only difference is that I consider presentation as a good general trait, and you consider it as a scum trait.

...Are you SERIOUSLY that dense?

[Voidedmafia]

Wtf, I derailed the DCL wagon by starting the IG wagon, which I then derailed to start the MoI wagon.

re

-starting. Though I do consider my vote interchangable between IG and DCL, so.

Are you on acid or something? Do you see the idea he's trying to push and why he's completely wrong?

The idea that scum is derailing a wagon on IG-scum?

[IceGuy]

I thought I just said I was ignoring DCL's wagon?

Yes. I was calling you out for framing it as a "wagon on ACTUAL scum for real".

Also, there is such a thing as voting townreads.

Well, okay, don't include yourself, but you can't deny that both Robo and AV began putting votes onto a counterwagon to yours for Arug's wagon and now MoI's growing one.

Though, didn't Whisper already point out you did have a townread on him at one point

Yeah, except it wasn't just Robo and AV, but other players too.

MoI had you and DCL as scumreads. With DCl's wagon beginning to derail at the time, why is it scummy for him to jump back to you, since again both of you are scumreads to him?

I had MoI and DCL as scumreads. With DCl's wagon beginning to derail at the time, why is it scummy for me to jump back to MoI, since again both of them are scumreads to me?

[whispersilk]

You say you only use things that are legitimately scummy, but as we've covered earlier, I only consider one of the points you brought up legitimate.

It's not about presentation, IceGuy. You are clearly concerned about how you are perceived in this game; every single post drips with it. That's a trait found FAR more often in scum.

To give an answer to both of your points...

Why don't you give an example?

If those traits are so pervasive they're in almost every post, where is your problem with pulling out one of those posts and explaining your point?

Is it because the whole house of cards would fall apart? Because it would force you to commit to a specific position I could disprove instead of throwing out accusations?

I literally just gave you like 5 examples. What the fuck are you smoking.

@Amrun:

No, I think IG was asking for examples of what I've bolded in your post above, of which you haven't given any (your deflection being immediately obv). I'm highlighting this for two reasons, (a) IG is now being made look scummy for his arguing with you, when in fact you're the one not backing up all your points against him and (b) I'm curious to see what you're talking about because in my experience of discussion with IG (especially on D1), he's come off as either stupid, rude or just plain stubborn. He's defended himself pretty well against me today, but not in the way you've claimed. The more I've pushed him, the more I've liked his responses.

MoI had you and DCL as scumreads. With DCl's wagon beginning to derail at the time, why is it scummy for him to jump back to you, since again both of you are scumreads to him?

@Voided:

I've already pointed out why MoI was scummy in my reply you. He made a song and dance about my IG wagon having no momentum and the fact that he refused to derail the DCL wagon by switching votes. All it took was one person unvoting DCL (you) for MoI to throw that out of the window and vote IG. This is not switching wagons because the other guy has more votes and is thus more viable than the wagon you're one, because IG still had fewer votes that DCL. MoI's unvote on DCL did more damage to DLC's wagon than your unvote did, and is the opposite of what MoI said he was prepared to do.

The idea that scum is derailing a wagon on IG-scum?

Exactly. Who unvoted IG when he was at L-1 and started a counter wagon?

[whispersilk]

You've done scummy things, but what you were worried about certainly wasn't one of them.

@DCL:

You said this to IG. What scummy things has IG done exactly? In your own words please.

[whispersilk]

Well, for the post in question, it seems he's calling you out for a contradiction in what you call "town reactions": Namely that IG AtE's a lurks which made you call him town, but Arug reacts and posts actively, which you also call him town for.

I never said the fact that IG lurked when at L-2 was towny. In fact, I said the opposite in my case against him today. Yes, his AtE post felt towny yesterday, but that was not the main reason I unvoted him, not even close. I stated quite clearly my reasons for the unvote in post #374. After Aru was lynched, and taking into account how he (Aru) reacted to it all, I realised that IG's AtE wasn't nearly as towny as I thought, but now I don't believe is it proof of being scum either. I've resorted to AtE as town. I brought it up when voting IG again, because at that point, I was back to thinking he was scum, and it fit as scummy behaviour. Now it's just null.

Then despite saying he wants to lynch IG more than DCL, and the case on IG is better, he really does not want to derail the DCL wagon.

Well, he did call crap on others for derailing the IG wagon, and while this may be against his own style, I don't find it that bad that he doesn't want to catch himself in his own contradiction.

Except he did.

Now Voided's vote on IG is terribad too. Voided ditches the case he's had on IG since day 1 (except he hasn't really had a case of his own, mainly sheeped other people) to vote DCL, who is also trying to push a IG lynch, but the way he does it is like he's trying to ditch the responsibility onto someone else.

I admit to sheeping some, yes--though IIRC I did profess the points in my own words and didn't just do nothing but sheep MoI--but since DCL and AVox were getting all wound up about (AVox, mainly), I just decided to give them their requet. I suppose the post in question can carrying that implication, but I was perfectly willing to revote DCL once the majority of people had collected/flipped.

Why do you care what the hell Vox thinks or wants? Yesterday, you said that he could hang today for his scummy behaviour. And why do you care what the hell DCL thinks or wants? You think he is scum and you were just voting him.

Do you make a habit of sheeping your scum suspects and giving them what they want?

MoI is acting scummier than IG has all game. His recent post combined with what I said about him yesterday is enough for me to vote him.

...No, I don't think that's true.

If that is the case, then I would love to read your reasons, in your own words, for why IG is scum.

[Voidedmafia]

I thought I just said I was ignoring DCL's wagon?

Yes. I was calling you out for framing it as a "wagon on ACTUAL scum for real".

Considering that the general consensus at the time the wagon formed/was forming was that DCL was at the very least a good alternative lynch to you or whoever their choice was, any wagon getting "derailed" to him (unless it was almost super-obvious that it was coming from scum) wouldn't have been that bad.

Also, there is such a thing as voting townreads.

That doesn't make it any more true.

Well, okay, don't include yourself, but you can't deny that both Robo and AV began putting votes onto a counterwagon to yours for Arug's wagon and now MoI's growing one.

Though, didn't Whisper already point out you did have a townread on him at one point

Yeah, except it wasn't just Robo and AV, but other players too.

Yeah, well, I already explained my views on the people on Arug's wagon, and right now 2/4 on MoI's are scum, so.

MoI had you and DCL as scumreads. With DCl's wagon beginning to derail at the time, why is it scummy for him to jump back to you, since again both of you are scumreads to him?

I had MoI and DCL as scumreads. With DCl's wagon beginning to derail at the time, why is it scummy for me to jump back to MoI, since again both of them are scumreads to me?

...I see where you're going with this, but I'll bite.

I believe MoI's reasons to be on your wagon at least logical, if not well-founded. I cannot say the same for yours.

MoI had you and DCL as scumreads. With DCl's wagon beginning to derail at the time, why is it scummy for him to jump back to you, since again both of you are scumreads to him?

@Voided:

I've already pointed out why MoI was scummy in my reply you. He made a song and dance about my IG wagon having no momentum and the fact that he refused to derail the DCL wagon by switching votes. All it took was one person unvoting DCL (you) for MoI to throw that out of the window and vote IG. This is not switching wagons because the other guy has more votes and is thus more viable than the wagon you're one, because IG still had fewer votes that DCL. MoI's unvote on DCL did more damage to DLC's wagon than your unvote did, and is the opposite of what MoI said he was prepared to do.

Well, I wasn't asking you that, but okay...

I don't think there's any argument about which vote was more damaging (there should've been no doubt that I was only unvoting to allow for collects and would've revoted DCL once that happened and IG's (and now MoI's) wagon had re/started).

However, if what you said was true (my unvote was at least a catalyst for him to unvote, if not being the sole reason) is troubling because, like I said, there should've been clear implications of a revote in the immediate/near future.

MoI

: Why did that unvote seem to affect you so much?

The idea that scum is derailing a wagon on IG-scum?

Exactly. Who unvoted IG when he was at L-1 and started a counter wagon?

Just to be clear, yesterday or today?

If you mean yesterday, you didn't start anything except the start of IG's first derailed wagon.

If you mean today, then yes, you're the one who derailed the wagon and started the one on MoI. Are you expecting me to suddenly drop my townread on you?

P-EDIT: Points are numbered from top down:

1.) I don't know what MoI was trying to get at, but I think that while they weren't the main reason, they were A reason you left him.

2.)...yes, he did.

3.) I did not (and still do not) believe that DCL-scum self-hammering would've been THAT detrimental to town at that point, but I did understand his concern. Just because I find someone scummy doesn't mean I can't agree with them sometimes or agree to their requests if I believe them to not be toward a scum agenda. Doesn't mean they're any less scum (unless they're a fringe read or something), though.

Also, no.

4.) ...When it's not 6:00 in the morning and I need to get some sleep.

[whispersilk]

@Amrun:

If you could stick around for like 5 minutes to answer something: Why is IG scum?

I have found him extremely scummy starting from yesterday; I dislike how he questioned Arugula's townread on me while NOT having a scumread on me. In general, most of his reads don't gel in this way. This is a hallmark of "looking for things to attack" rather than genuinely scumhunting, and undermining town reads like that is a favorite scumtell of mine.

Yes, it's interesting that I raised this in my case against him, except he explained his reason for the attack pretty well. He brought it up only after Aru brought it up. Some 4 pages of the game had passed since Aru had called you town. If IG was "looking for things to attack", you think he would have jumped on that before then.

But that's quite interesting, because you have just done the same thing. I cannot comprehend your jump from IceGuy to MoI. It makes zero freaking sense.

MoI has been this little nagging thing in my gut, and I made a post at the end of yesterday explaining why I found him scummy. I've went from voting IG to MoI, because of MoI's actions and the way he abandoned the DCL wagon.

Also, looking back at the voting patterns from earlier today, it makes no sense that MoI would abandon his awesome case and vote on IG to jump to DCL, when IG and DCL had an equal # of votes.

I really liked your case on IceGuy, and then you ruined that nice town sense I had of you by changing gears so suddenly and now I'm conflicted. It's one thing to change your vote, and quite another to suddenly vote for the person your previous scumread has been pushing, with whom the arguments with were the basis of your original suspicion.

Where did I ever say that the IG/MoI arguments were the basis of my original suspicion vote on IG? Link please.

Also, I've had a null-leaning scum read on MoI since yesterday, so it's not like I've pulled the vote out of my arse. He's just done and said enough to be my top scum read.

Made it to page 25, will have to finish up when I finally get home as I'm about to get back on a train.

Thoughts so far:

-IceGuy still scum. What's really funny is that he's saying MoI "ramps up" a person's scumminess, which is totally true, but is NOT a scumtell...

It's actually a TOWNTELL for MoI.

And it's doubly funny because IceGuy also does this, but I've never observed him doing it as town.

Really? Cuz in a game I played with him where he was scum and I was town, he hella ramped up my scumminess and spent all of the first two pages pushing a policy lynch on me by telling everyone I was the worst player around and was power-lurking scum. Except he can't pull that in this game cuz I'm obv town playing completely against my lurk-scum meta.

Which thankfully Hoopla pointed out for everyone.

That's not my experience with him as scum. I'm sure he does it sometimes as scum, as well - my point was that it's not a scumtell.

Awesome! If you're sure he does it sometimes as scum, where is your justification for the underlined part in your post above?

The bolded really pings my scumdar. It has all the hallmarks of "teehee I killed Hoopla so nk analysis wouldn't implicate me! Now I can use her meta tell on me as legit and no one will question it!"

If my read on IceGuy wasn't so strong, I'd be voting you.

Thanks for misrepping my point.

[whispersilk]

Okay, can't do it, too tired, but I see at least one iceguy vote and I feel so lame without voting.

Vote: IceGuy

I tried and got like 2 pages in. Blegh. Finish tomorrow.

ICEguy is at L-1 with this vote. You should check the amount of votes on a person the next time you vote them.

You took the time to point this out but didn't bother to unvote. Why is that?