Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)


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Post Post #400 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:15 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Vote Count 1.12 - As of post 400

Greenknight (2) - triangle123, Starbuck
jasonT1981 (5) - Tierce, Iecerint, CryMeARiver, kortul, GreyICE
Acosmist (1) - T-Bone
Starbuck (1) - Greenknight
T-Bone (2) - Korlash, Acosmist

Not Voting (2) - jasonT1981, Zang

The Current deadline is July 17, 2012 at 10:00 am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-07-17 10:00:00).

With 13 active votes - 7 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

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Korlash will be V/LA from July 7 to July 15.
CryMeARiver will be V/LA from July 8 to July 14.
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Post Post #401 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:26 pm

Post by triangle123 »

T-Bone wrote:I can see GK's actions from a town perspective


What about them seem like they could come from a town perspective? Also, what is your current read on Green? (Sorry if you answered a similar question to this recently since I might have missed something.)

I've noticed that Kortul has a tendency to describe his reads as "neutral, slightly leaning scum" or "neutral, slightly leaning town", or with similarly termed phrases. This cautious approach to his reads strikes me as scummy, and for reasons I can't exactly pinpoint, his switch onto Jason bothers me as well. It's not enough for me to change my vote, but he's on my radar now.
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Post Post #402 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:54 pm

Post by GreyICE »

kortul wrote:Grey, as long as you behaving normally i am open for dialogue. But you should know my answer already, i said at least twice that Tierce is one of my town reads. Based on post 267, which i consider town tell, her consistent stance on Jason and general quiet and logical style of play. There is one thing that i don't like - periods of inactivity here while being active in other games, but i have no idea whether it is normal for those who play in many games at once, will probably meta her after day 1 to find out whether this is true in other games.

Now, can you answer questions about Jason?

Okay then.

I find Jason's back and forth on me incredibly irritating. His basic strategy seems to be to suggest that I'm awful, something he didn't try in Team Mafia. Having been wildly successful scum in team mafia, I was near willing to chuck it down as a town tell. But the play...

Basically, it's the most skitzo play I've ever seen.

1) He says that he thinks I'm fakeclaiming, and then votes Zang anyway (he says he doesn't want Zang quicklynched, but what is the point of the RVS vote? To put Zang under pressure? I think having a claimed cop guilty is pressure. RVS is not that random).

2) He then tries to force a 1v1 between me and Zang.

3) When I reveal the truth, he simply goes 'oh how scummy' and votes me. Then he quickly assures everyone that I'm a terrible player who would fakeclaim as town.

4) Under pressure, he unvotes me, and goes 'oh Grey is terrible town. Completely terrible!' He has no other reads, and doesn't put down a vote on anyone. Despite having 3 scum reads


Starbuck has changed due to more, and better posts. I am getting a more town feel from her as the game went on.
triangle123 - Did not like the jump on Greenknight, seemed forced
Acosmist - posts a lot but not seeing any real substance from him. seems to be saying things for sake of it rather than gen scum hunting.


^^ No vote down here. Doesn't vote.

5) He claims VT. I hate this, because I rarely see scum under pressure claim VT. It's more likely to draw cop or doctor claims. Or, y'know, some power role. The 'don't lynch the cop' reflex is just so strong, whereas towns will lynch VTs. He can't expect me to unvote, I laughed at Haylen's VT claim.

6) So, I try and evaluate what's going on. He grabs Tierce's lifeline and goes "OH MY GOD, GREY SO SCUM" and votes me again. He then proceeds to lecture me on how I'm terrible town. Again.


So yeah, at this point he's not playing like he does as scum. But he's not playing like he's town. I give up, I'm tired, tired of reading that shit.

I think Tierce is scum. I really do. I don't like her at all. But I cannot focus when there's a Jester jumping up and down and screaming about my play in other games and being a completely useless piece of shit in every single way.

I mean you realize if you go through the thread and count his interactions with people that were NOT defenses he's interacted with one single person over the course of the entire game. Me.

Seriously, go through his quote history. The only person he's interacted with, at all, in the entire town, at any point (except to defend himself) is me.

Me alone.


I mean my god, if I don't lynch people for this, what do I lynch them for?
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Post Post #403 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:12 pm

Post by Starbuck »

Referring to the Jason deflection thing, I feel that it could be scum trying to really push this Jason lynch to get suspicion off of himself. I need to ISO kortul here shortly.

triangle123 wrote:Jason, where did you bread-crumb?

Oi, was this ever answered?


greenknight wrote:My main point against Starbuck is that she's scum because she is accusing me of being scum on the basis of behavioural tells that she's committing herself. The points she raises against me also continue to get worse and worse, with "fencesitting" and "tunnelling" being the latest examples of this. I am not trying to convince her that she is scum (she knows that already,) but to expose her scummy reasoning to everyone else.

See, my point is that you have committed a number of scummy actions, and yes, one of the big things for me is that you didn't start your whole case on me until I suspected you. You haven't deterred from that one bit. And no sweetheart, I am not scum. I am the farthest from the likes of em, love.


T-Bone wrote:I'm lost as to what this discussion between Greenknight and Starbuck boils down to. Obviously you're not going to convince each other that you're scum, so why are you trying? Going point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point isn't productive at all.

Egads. I'm with you, and have just about given up responding to him. I still think he's scum and my vote will stay.
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Post Post #404 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:13 pm

Post by GreyICE »

Actually I have a question. Kortul, am I voting for scum or town?
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Post Post #405 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:40 pm

Post by Starbuck »

Boys, this whole digression into past games isn't helping anyone.

kortul wrote:Grey, in case you forgot, you switched back and forth like 4 times within two days, without really explaining why. And pushing Jason atm, not Tierce. :roll:

And I was wondering if anyone was counting how many times that he switched his vote.

Don't remember GreyICE being this brash, but it has been awhile since I've played on Mafiascum.

triangle123 wrote:
T-Bone wrote:I can see GK's actions from a town perspective


What about them seem like they could come from a town perspective? Also, what is your current read on Green? (Sorry if you answered a similar question to this recently since I might have missed something.).

Well, I feel that this may be a good time to bring back up the connection that I've seen between T-Bone and greenknight. Back towards the beginning of the day, they were coming to each other's defense pretty hard to the point of even explaining each other's actions. I got the feeling of white knighting and it makes me question the relationship between the two.

Oh, there we go. Finally! The GreyICE that I know in #402. I may not agree with his points on Jason, but that's a town GreyICE if I've ever seen one.

Luckily, I finished Season 2, watched the Christmas Special, and am now on Torchwood Season 1. So I don't have to worry about potential spoilers.


Finally, I will be scarce over this weekend as I have 3 term papers (2 individual and 1 team) due between Tues and Weds of next week. So mod, put me down as V/LA until Monday, I'll check in when I can.
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Post Post #406 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:48 pm

Post by Starbuck »

I've gone on enough about greenknight, but if you guys want me to reiterate everything point by point, I can. As for others that I suspect, Tierce is definitely next on my list. I don't like the wagon that she started on Jason off of sheer misrepresentation #70. I also believe she has spent far too much time talking GreyIce off his wagons than replying to anyone else.

I need to do an ISO of kortul and find where I stand on him.
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Post Post #407 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:08 pm

Post by GreyICE »

Starbuck <3
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Post Post #408 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:51 pm

Post by kortul »

triangle123 wrote:I've noticed that Kortul has a tendency to describe his reads as "neutral, slightly leaning scum" or "neutral, slightly leaning town", or with similarly termed phrases. This cautious approach to his reads strikes me as scummy,
And now you understand my playing style. Years and years in information security and auditing taught me, that world isn't black and white, and i don't divide players as, say, 5 scum and 7 town. There are several gradations in between, and i don't see a reason why should i hide this. If i don't have a strong read, i tell the things i like and don't like, and if i get feedback on the things i don't like, i reevaluate them. So far i have 2 town reads, 1 scum read, and several in between, evaluating the rest one by one when i have time. I feel that expressing reads, thoughts and concerns is more helpful to the town than just criticizing everything, and not giving or explaining reads. I am more open to attacks this way, but that is fine to me, since every attack has a motive behind it, and if i can see the motive, i can get a better read on attacker.

triangle123 wrote: and for reasons I can't exactly pinpoint, his switch onto Jason bothers me as well. It's not enough for me to change my vote, but he's on my radar now.
There are hunters who make lots of noise, scare animals so they would reveal themselves, and try to shoot them on a run. And there are hunters who quietly wait, observing everything around and waiting for the animal to come into the open. When it comes to scumhunting, i belong to the second group - i am asking questions, go into details if needed, analyzing interactions between other players and so on. I am more comfortable with this approach. Grey, for example, belongs to the first group of hunters, he is more comfortable with this style from what i have seen.

You asked me to elaborate on the switch and i explained my thought process as completely as i can in post 357. If you don't understand certain thing, you can ask, if you have different views on all of my points against Jason, then take them one by one and give your point of view. By doing this you will eventually figure out which reason is bothering you in my switch.
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Post Post #409 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:18 pm

Post by GreyICE »

GreyICE wrote:Actually I have a question. Kortul, am I voting for scum or town?

Kortul....
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Post Post #410 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:19 pm

Post by kortul »

Grey, your 402 is one of the best thought process explanations i've read. I can't say anything on meta staff, since it is your experience, but everything else is logical and consistent, i need no farther explanations.

As for your question - i don't have a crystal ball or a time machine, i don't have check results on Jason, i don't know how Jason plays as town or scum, and i don't rely on emotions (you don't see body language and microexpressions to see how genuine are those emotions), so i am relying on logic and scum tells. And so far all the points i have against Jason are valid, of all the things to comment on he took the statement that i didn't even list as scummy. So, to answer your question - I think you are voting for scum.
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Post Post #411 (ISO) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:21 pm

Post by kortul »

Grey, i am at work, i can't post non-stop. I answered one thing, then made some phone calls, then answered you.
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Post Post #412 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:51 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Mod Notes -

As usual I will be LA from about 4pm today. Vote counts will occur over the weekend but will be more sporadic than normal. I will also have cell access and will be using it to monitor the thread.

No prods are currently due.
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Post Post #413 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:07 am

Post by kortul »

Took some time to do several more ISOs.

I am leaning town on
CryMeARiver
- i agree with most of the things he posted, too bad his analysis/thoughts stopped in a middle of a road.

I have trouble reading
triangle123
- i generally like the way he expresses his thoughts, but most of the time so far our conclusions and view on the events are different. Still, his general activity follows normal town pattern, and he is consistent, so my read on him is neutral, leaning town.

Iecerint
- after the ISO my read on him is leaning town. Even though i don't like his play, he believed (and played in accordance) both first and second "claims" of Grey, and that most likely indicates town imho. I still can see him as a scum if he is really good pretender and planning far ahead; if he is scum together with Grey (and after post 402 i doubt that Grey is scum); or if Iec is third party, but all that can be analyzed only much later.

I have Starbuck and T-Bone ISO's ahead, and after the repeated absence of Tierce (even after promised catchup there's nothing, while there's lot of activity in other threads) and the thoughts posted by Grey i will ISO her play as well. I doubt that i will be able to find time for all that today, will be taking family out of the city for the weekend. And will be
V/LA on weekend
as well, unless sun will finally give up and rain would come.
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Post Post #414 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:28 am

Post by jasonT1981 »

Starbuck wrote:

triangle123 wrote:Jason, where did you bread-crumb?

Oi, was this ever answered?


Missed this, sorry.

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But to push I was fence sitting is BS.
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Post Post #415 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:29 am

Post by Acosmist »

greenknight wrote:
Acosmist wrote:
greenknight wrote:
- Acos #326 - No, complaining about insults isn't scummy.


I said it was...where?


Acosmist 326 wrote:T-Bone's shtick where he can make walls attacking me and I can't refute his pathetic cases is hilariously scummy. Also, we're all adults. Stop whining about insults. Don't post illiterate nonsense if you have thin skin.


I read this as connected because the only thing he's dismissing out of hand in #302 is the insults.


"Also" is right there, staring you in the face, asking you why you're intentionally choosing to misread what I said.

That they are connected is not only wrong, but not even a plausible reading of what I said objectively. If I merely spoke poorly, I could apologize for it, but I can't apologize for using the mot juste (not without committing an instance of Moore's Paradox, I guess).
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Post Post #416 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:23 am

Post by greenknight »

Here's my take on Jason. He doesn't appear to be paying a lot of attention to the game, as demonstrated by his answers when I questioned him on his townreads and thinking that I had actually been in a fight with Korlash. My interpretation of his reactions post flip-out on Grey is that he expected to get lynched and doesn't really care. Combined with the fact that no one is trying to get momentum on a counterwagon this late in the day (which suggests scum are happy with how things stand right now), this says one of two things to me: either 1) he's town who can't be bothered to put in any effort because he's frustrated at the game due to being continually attacked, and if he gets lynched then he doesn't care because his attackers will look bad, or 2) he's scum putting in minimal effort because his teammates are ditching him anyway. I actually think (1) is more likely.

IF jason is town though, he needs to step his game up now. Grey actually presented his case in #402 so I want to see a more detailed explanation of Jason's thought process and why he thinks Tierce in particular is scum. Because so far Jason's contributed very little in the way of actual scumhunting this game.
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Post Post #417 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:25 am

Post by greenknight »

Acosmist wrote:
greenknight wrote:
Acosmist wrote:
greenknight wrote:
- Acos #326 - No, complaining about insults isn't scummy.


I said it was...where?


Acosmist 326 wrote:T-Bone's shtick where he can make walls attacking me and I can't refute his pathetic cases is hilariously scummy. Also, we're all adults. Stop whining about insults. Don't post illiterate nonsense if you have thin skin.


I read this as connected because the only thing he's dismissing out of hand in #302 is the insults.


"Also" is right there, staring you in the face, asking you why you're intentionally choosing to misread what I said.


Because your first sentence didn't make much sense in isolation. I don't see where T-bone has given a reason why you can't counterargue against him.

That they are connected is not only wrong, but not even a plausible reading of what I said objectively. If I merely spoke poorly, I could apologize for it, but I can't apologize for using the mot juste (not without committing an instance of Moore's Paradox, I guess).


What?
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Post Post #418 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:35 am

Post by greenknight »

Starbuck wrote:
greenknight wrote:My main point against Starbuck is that she's scum because she is accusing me of being scum on the basis of behavioural tells that she's committing herself. The points she raises against me also continue to get worse and worse, with "fencesitting" and "tunnelling" being the latest examples of this. I am not trying to convince her that she is scum (she knows that already,) but to expose her scummy reasoning to everyone else.

See, my point is that you have committed a number of scummy actions, and yes, one of the big things for me is that you didn't start your whole case on me until I suspected you. You haven't deterred from that one bit. And no sweetheart, I am not scum. I am the farthest from the likes of em, love.


That doesn't answer my point at all. (And no, you can't dismiss my case against you as somehow invalid just because you attacked me first.)
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Post Post #419 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:57 am

Post by T-Bone »

Mod request replacement. Can't pay the internet bill for the next week or so. I need to be replaced.
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Post Post #420 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:14 pm

Post by triangle123 »

Starbuck wrote:Well, I feel that this may be a good time to bring back up the connection that I've seen between T-Bone and greenknight.


Actually, I was thinking about this as well. T-Bone's vote and unvote of Green looks rather like an attempt at distancing without pushing the wagon too far, and since I already consider them independently scummy, this potential connection does strengthen my scum reads of them a bit. Let's see how T-Bone's replacement is.

I had an initial town read on Tierce for the early part of the day. Although I disagree with her reasoning, her vote on Jason feels genuine. What does give me pause, though, is that seems rather fixated on the Jason wagon to the point where she asked Grey to change his Kortul vote despite being over a week away from the deadline. She also hasn't elaborated on other players that much, but this may be a symptom of her silence now. However, I don't think her lack of posting here is a tell in either direction because she's not the type to lurk regardless of her alignment. In short, I'm not entirely sure what to make of her and so I will be awaiting her catch-up post.

Jason, what do you think the best place for your vote is now?
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Post Post #421 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:23 pm

Post by GreyICE »

Look, I have some fairly solid town reads. At this point, I wanna throw a question out there.

I am not joking when I say I am the one and only focus of Jason's gameplay. Please, read the ISO, and say otherwise. It's a level of fixation I've literally never seen from anyone, town or scum. I don't want to even say lyncher, because I think a lyncher would do a better job of appearing to have more than one target. But Jason knows that the way to get me not to pay attention to you is call me town and be friendly to me.

Tierce on the other hand is just not town.

Vote: Tierce


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Post Post #422 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:30 pm

Post by Starbuck »

Grey, do you think his fixation has something to do with your history on site? I've played with you and Jason more times than I can count, and I'm trying to remember if this is a normal thing for him or not.

I really don't want to leave the greenknight wagon because I feel with all of his actions and the T-Bone connection that there is something in that. But I can't shake that feeling of Tierce either.
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Post Post #423 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:10 pm

Post by Zang »

My father is having hip surgery on monday so I will have limited access for about the next two weeks. I should be able to post normally though.

triangle123 wrote:I've noticed that Kortul has a tendency to describe his reads as "neutral, slightly leaning scum" or "neutral, slightly leaning town", or with similarly termed phrases.


Why do you find this scummy? You don't have a complete town or scum read on everybody, right?

GreyICE wrote:I am not joking when I say I am the one and only focus of Jason's gameplay. Please, read the ISO, and say otherwise. It's a level of fixation I've literally never seen from anyone, town or scum. I don't want to even say lyncher, because I think a lyncher would do a better job of appearing to have more than one target. But Jason knows that the way to get me not to pay attention to you is call me town and be friendly to me.


The first half of the game was focused on you. You are also the main person pushing his wagon and it is easy to get aggravated at you. It is very odd but I don't think it's that unreasonable.

GreyICE wrote:Tierce on the other hand is just not town.


Why is Tierce scum? I don't like his vote on jason but besides that I haven't really noticed anything scummy about him.
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Post Post #424 (ISO) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:28 pm

Post by Starbuck »

Zang, Tierce is a she. Just fyi.
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