Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[GreyICE]

Grey, do you think his fixation has something to do with your history on site? I've played with you and Jason more times than I can count, and I'm trying to remember if this is a normal thing for him or not.

I literally have never seen it at this level. Ever. Normally he's defending his town reads and yelling for his scum reads to die. He typically has a fairly narrow focus, but NEVER this narrow. Never. I've never seen it before in any game I've played with him. It's to the point where it is literally creeping me out.

I can't think of a town motive for it at all, but I can't think of a scum one either (unless his goal is to draw suspicion to himself so he can show off his amazing fakeclaim of... VT...)

[triangle123]

Why do you find this scummy? You don't have a complete town or scum read on everybody, right?

No, of course not, but at the time I posted that, his most recent couple reads were all "neutral, slightly leaning [blank]" and it stuck out to me as sometimes scum players are very cautious in the way they word things to avoid stirring waves. Afterwards, though, his later reads were a little more definitive, and I looked through his past games and it is indeed in his meta to word things carefully. So, I've concluded it's a null tell for him.

It's possible Jason's fixation on Grey is because of a personal vendetta he has against him. He also seems to have somewhat given up on this game, which could either be a frustrated townie who's tired of defending himself or a resigned scum. I still think he's town because I have different interpretations/opinions on the various attacks leveled against him, and while he's definitely not my top town read, I don't want to see him lynched today.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about a Tierce lynch. I want to wait for her to catch up to the game and then decide from there. Right now, though, I agree with Starbuck that a Green lynch would be nice.

[greenknight]

Hey triangle I'm tired of this crap case against me. Since you're meta checking here's some reading material: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21408 Check the tells I attack people on there. Once you've cleared your confirmation bias, take a closer look at starbuck's latest arguments against me and you'll see why I'm voting her, because they're awful.

[Tierce]

I want to hear this one.

However, I don't think her lack of posting here is a tell in either direction because she's not the type to lurk regardless of her alignment.

Evidence that supports this, please and thank you: links and explanations of my 'lurking' or lack thereof elsewhere. This does not jive with what I know of my own meta, so where are you getting this?


More tonight, pinky promise.

[greenknight]

TIERCE explain your 180 flip on me. Why do you agree with triangle that my attack on zang is scummy in 116 but then say it's town in 199?

[triangle123]

Green, I'm acknowledging 427 and will respond to that later. I just want to quickly respond to Tierce.

Evidence that supports this, please and thank you: links and explanations of my 'lurking' or lack thereof elsewhere. This does not jive with what I know of my own meta, so where are you getting this?

From what I know of you, you don't lurk (where I define lurking in this instance to be not posting anything for relatively long stretches of time and not answering questions directed at you for a while) and that if you do, it's for a reason not related to your alignment. Maybe I'm wrong but that contrasts with my experience with you since I can't remember any game I played with you or read that you played in where you purposefully stayed silent either as town or scum. I will look through your completed games later on when I have more time.

[Tierce]

-- You have

one

finished game with me, in which we were both town, which you're certainly not checking because it was lost in the crash and it wasn't recovered AFAICT.
-- You apparently haven't meta'd me.
-- You have an

ongoing

game with me, in which we're both unflipped.

How do you take conclusions on "what I know of you" since you have no evidence?

FoS: triangle123

greenknight, promise I'll address that tonight. I have a game in LyLo but I know we're quite near to the deadline here too, so these two games are priorities.

[triangle123]

since I can't remember any game I played with you or read that you played in

I've read several games that you have played in. But yes, I will double-check your games later on.

[triangle123]

Uh, that's supposed to be "triangle wrote". Fail.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 1.13 - As of post 434

Tierce (1) - GreyICE
Greenknight (2) - triangle123, Starbuck
jasonT1981 (4) - Tierce, Iecerint, CryMeARiver, kortul
Acosmist (1) - T-Bone
Starbuck (1) - Greenknight
T-Bone (2) - Korlash, Acosmist

Not Voting (2) - jasonT1981, Zang

The Current deadline is July 17, 2012 at 10:00 am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-07-17 10:00:00).

With 13 active votes - 7 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

Mod Notes -

T-Bone is being replaced …. Deadline will likely get a small extension for catch-up time.
Korlash will be V/LA from July 7 to July 15.
CryMeARiver will be V/LA from July 8 to July 14.
Kortul is V/LA til July 15.

[GreyICE]

-- You have

one

finished game with me, in which we were both town, which you're certainly not checking because it was lost in the crash and it wasn't recovered AFAICT.
-- You apparently haven't meta'd me.
-- You have an

ongoing

game with me, in which we're both unflipped.

How do you take conclusions on "what I know of you" since you have no evidence?

FoS: triangle123

greenknight, promise I'll address that tonight. I have a game in LyLo but I know we're quite near to the deadline here too, so these two games are priorities.

Tierce gal you so scum

[Starbuck]

I wasn't the only one that got a feeling of severe overreaction there, right?

[Tierce]

You're not, but not for the reason you're thinking. Search the forums for my opinion on game integrity and you'll see my take on bringing up stuff that might be from ongoing games, meta trust tells, etc. I am not a happy camper when people toe the line, and then it becomes more than my wincon--it becomes a matter of fairness, ethics and sportsmanship.

triangle, I can't see where you're lifting that from. Please give me finished games that show how this "Tierce doesn't lurk, regardless of alignment" thing makes sense. Not in later days,

now

.

[Acosmist]

meta trust tells?

[Tierce]

i.e. I am calling BS on this meta analysis of my activity level being 'an alignment nullread', so I want to check your facts, triangle.


Trust tells. Stuff you should never do were I can see it unless you want me to go all policy lynch on you.
/tangent

[triangle123]

Wait, wait, whoa. I think I might have missed something here, so let me try to clarify my original intentions. Someone mentioned that Tierce may be scummy for reasons including her relative lack of content in this game. Maybe I misinterpreted this, but I took this to mean they were implying Tierce could possibly not be posting on purpose. This is a strategy that is generally frowned upon, and from what I know of Tierce, she's a well-respected player and wouldn't purposefully just not post in games. So I was just trying to say that the fact that she fell behind a little bit in the game and needed time to catch up and thus wasn't posting much content for a while is likely for a legitimate reason and not something I interpret as scummy. I am NOT drawing this from any on-going games; that wasn't even in my mind when I wrote my post. This has nothing to do with a trust tell, and I don't really see how it could.

Tierce, I'm not sure what kinds of links you want me to post. I never read any games where you as either town or scum purposefully refrained from posting and that's why I said it seems like a null tell to me. Should I just post the links of the games I've read where you were a player?

[Tierce]

Erm...
You do know that lurking is a perfectly

legitimate

strategy, yes? Lurking != claiming V/LA, where I would be lying to the

mod

. I'm capable of posting, I'm just not caught up and intending to do so some time tonight.

I get what you meant now, but... yeah, I don't think that's what was being discussed. For the record, I

do

lurk as scum, but there is quite the difference between "heh I'm not caught up but I'm still here guys" to "not posting in specific circumstances let's hide the fact that I'm around". The latter is scum-derived, the former is because, among other things, I

miss Korlash's gallant voice

have been doing other stuff. Yes, I'm posting elsewhere, and I've also been doing work on the site (check the wiki). I am hardly hiding the fact that yes, I'm around, which wouldn't exactly be prime strategilurk scumplay for obv reasons.

Nevermind that FoS. Don't startle me like that, though. O_o

[Starbuck]

You're not, but not for the reason you're thinking. Search the forums for my opinion on game integrity and you'll see my take on bringing up stuff that might be from ongoing games, meta trust tells, etc. I am not a happy camper when people toe the line, and then it becomes more than my wincon--it becomes a matter of fairness, ethics and sportsmanship.

GreyICE and Jason could definitely tell you that I don't think things like dislike for another person needs to be taken from game to game. We are all here to have fun and while I am also an advocate for each game being its own separate universe, meta isn't something that's ever going to be stopped. You play with someone enough, you're going to be able to tell off the bat if they are town or mafia. It makes the game more challenging when you get to that point. You should see me in a game where I end up mafia and Reck is village. I figure that I'm done from the get-go.

It is a site rule that ongoing games are not be talked about until after games are over with, but past games are a free-for-all. There isn't a rule against meta and again, it won't be stopped. It doesn't go against ethics or sportsmanship and even fairness imho.

[Tierce]

I'm not talking about past games nor about dislike for someone (what? where did that come from?), I'm one of the strongest advocates of meta reads when done properly. I was venting because it's a touchy subject, but it's all good here, no line was toed, etc.
I thought triangle was hinting at something

not

from a finished game, but it seems she didn't even consider a meta case here, just "Tierce wouldn't lurk on purpose" (which is patently not true, triangle, so you might want to check that in the future).

[Tierce]

Anyway, very little of that is alignment-related, so on to business.

greenknight--I was trying to figure you out on #116. That bit about 'failing a reaction test' didn't mean I thought you are scum, more like "you're silly and overeager, natch". This is my view on poorly-made reaction tests; I've jumped on things that people then went "omg so scummy" toward me when the 'test' itself was scummy and it was perfectly legitimate for town to dive after it.
It didn't make you scum, but it was somewhat cute--because I've been there and I saw it coming in this game from

someone

.

The townpoints for triangle were because I could see her side of things, since town has jumped after me when I'm jumping after reaction tests (it's like making a Dalek beg for mercy, you can't do it just once). It's the main reason I don't like reaction tests--they rarely net scum, while most of the time they confuse and frustrate town who then run circles around each other.
triangle voted and accused you, sure, but she also took the time to develop further on you, question you, and debate the issue. It feels like she's trying to make sense of things, while scum would already know what is going on and wouldn't give you much of a chance to clarify stuff for her. You could be town, but triangle was town regardless.

On #199, my main focus was showing that you were acting like too-eager town. I've been there; posting a lot on D1 is a sure way to get a good chunk of unwanted/unwarranted attention, and I think it is what is happening to you. Your reasoning re: Zang and GreyICE was

bad

, but not in a scummy sense. When you developed on it, I don't see scum motivation for acting the way you're acting. You want to catch scum, and whether or not you're managing it does not mean you are not

trying

, which is my turning point on a "is he scumhunting?" D1 read.

[Starbuck]

I'm not talking about past games nor about dislike for someone (what? where did that come from?), I'm one of the strongest advocates of meta reads when done properly. I was venting because it's a touchy subject, but it's all good here, no line was toed, etc.

It came from what I personally don't like to see in a game.

Although, I would be careful about stating

anything

about an ongoing game, including if it is in LYLO.

[Tierce]

Good point.

[GreyICE]

Tierce, I get you are self-righteous and indignant that anyone would think you were scum for that.

But you're playing it up, and nothing is going to change the fact that you are

just. not. town.

Hola people, time to launch this wagon.

[GreyICE]

Seriously folks, read Tierce's words. Read them? Good.

She's angry that people think she's scum FOR THE WRONG REASONS.

My god, town-tierce would be like "fuck you, it's a town tell because I'm town, so lets move on and I'll do some really good analysis of this game." Scum-Tierce is like "well, I've totally done this as town before, really folks, this is a TERRIBLE reason to lynch me!"

String her up.

[GreyICE]

Seriously folks, read Tierce's words. Read them? Good.

She's angry that people think she's scum FOR THE WRONG REASONS.

My god, town-tierce would be like "fuck you, it's a town tell because I'm town, so lets move on and I'll do some really good analysis of this game." Scum-Tierce is like "well, I've totally done this as town before, really folks, this is a TERRIBLE reason to lynch me!"

String her up.