[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[callforjudgement]

9of4

• 9 Townies, each of which are (independently randomized) a 1-shot Cop, 1-shot Doctor, Macho 1-shot Jailkeeper, or a VT.
• 1 Mafia Goon
• 1 Mafia Roleblocker
• 1 Mafia Backup Roleblocker

Had this idea a while ago while trying to figure out how to deal with the problem that 2of4 solves (having a known number of VTs/power roles locks scums into unavoidable 1v1s or 1v2s at lylo), and also the problem that it has (having more VTs in a setup can make it somewhat townsided, and likewise a lot of power roles can make it somewhat scumsided). OK, so the 9-townie version is probably not balanced (although still definitely winnable), but it's also mindblowingly unlikely; using a lot of weak power roles seems the best way to diffuse the setup sensitivity. The roleblockers are to make it very difficult for town to coordinate actions and break a specific setup. (The Macho on the JK is to avoid paradoxes; likewise, scum can't both kill and block.)

Probably too complex/large for a newbie game (although you could probably scale it down to 2:5 or 2:6 to make a smaller version, then it'd be the right size for a newbie but still too complex). But I think it might work well as an open.

[DCLXVI]

Instead of the back-up roleblocker stuff, just give the mafia a factional roleblock ability and make it so that the same player cannot submit both the kill and the roleblock. That would seem less complicated.

Otherwise that setup looks very intriguing.

[Staeg]

Welllll that would give mafia more flexibility in who should do what and when. Not sure if that's necessary.

[yellowbounder]

So, would a Kingmaker game qualify as an experimental Open game?

Victoria I

2 Assassins

(standard scumteam, NK, talk at night)

1 Hero

(kills King if executed, cannot be selected as King once revealed)

1 Kingmaker

(claiming or hinting results in a MK, if NKd new Kingmaker is randomly selected from Villagers)
8 Villagers

[Quilford]

So, would a Kingmaker game qualify as an experimental Open game?

Victoria I

2 Assassins

(standard scumteam, NK, talk at night)

1 Hero

(kills King if executed, cannot be selected as King once revealed)

1 Kingmaker

(claiming or hinting results in a MK, if NKd new Kingmaker is randomly selected from Villagers)
8 Villagers

If you take away the absurd rule that claiming or hinting to being the kingmaker results in being modkilled, it might stand a chance.

[yellowbounder]

Hey I'm just quoting the wiki. I'm sure there's a good reason for it.

[zoraster]

9of4

• 9 Townies, each of which are (independently randomized) a 1-shot Cop, 1-shot Doctor, Macho 1-shot Jailkeeper, or a VT.
• 1 Mafia Goon
• 1 Mafia Roleblocker
• 1 Mafia Backup Roleblocker

Had this idea a while ago while trying to figure out how to deal with the problem that 2of4 solves (having a known number of VTs/power roles locks scums into unavoidable 1v1s or 1v2s at lylo), and also the problem that it has (having more VTs in a setup can make it somewhat townsided, and likewise a lot of power roles can make it somewhat scumsided). OK, so the 9-townie version is probably not balanced (although still definitely winnable), but it's also mindblowingly unlikely; using a lot of weak power roles seems the best way to diffuse the setup sensitivity. The roleblockers are to make it very difficult for town to coordinate actions and break a specific setup. (The Macho on the JK is to avoid paradoxes; likewise, scum can't both kill and block.)

Probably too complex/large for a newbie game (although you could probably scale it down to 2:5 or 2:6 to make a smaller version, then it'd be the right size for a newbie but still too complex). But I think it might work well as an open.

You could just make the roleblock power factional since that seems to be what you're after with the RB and RB Backup

[gorckat]

And since the same person can't kill and block, one scum is just gonna kill anyway (in the case of the RB and backup getting lynched).

[Staeg]

Welllll that would give mafia more flexibility in who should do what and when. Not sure if that's necessary.

[gorckat]

Eh. Fair point, but in a game sans Tracker/Watcher with maybe a 1-shot JK or two, it might not matter.

[callforjudgement]

The version of my setup with a factional roleblock might well work better; it's simpler, which helps. (The presence of a JK means that kill choice matters, so it's not an equivalent setup, but it's probably close enough that the simplification makes it better.)

So we have this:

9of4

• 9 Townies, each of which are (independently randomized) a 1-shot Cop, 1-shot Doctor, Macho 1-shot Jailkeeper, or a VT.
• 3 Mafia Goons.
• The Mafia have a factional roleblock, which cannot be used by the same person as the person who makes the kill.

Seems reasonable, and pretty simple, with only one "unique rule", the factional roleblock. (Anyone noticed how Opens nearly always have a unique rule? I think it's because it's the only really reliable way of preventing massclaim as a breaking strategy that doesn't put huge constraints on the rest of the setup.)

[Hoopla]

RAF Squares

3x Mafia Goons
9x Townies

Mafia have daytalk.

~~

Using the Ready, Aim, Fire mechanic to determine nightkills, each player is situated on a 3x3 grid in one of the squares. Pregame, each player PM's the mod which square they'd like to start in. Throughout the day, each player can move up, down, left or right (not diagonal) one square if they wish, and after a lynch has taken place, the night phase begins, which is essentially an asymmetrical RAF shootout. Every player must choose to shoot a player in an adjacent (or same) square, shoot the sky, or shoot themself.

Normal RAF resolution applies, where any player who shoots someone suiciding, will suicide themself, and any player who suicides but is shot by someone else survives. This should be an interesting mechanic, with players in densely populated areas of the board being up against many people, while a player in a corner maybe only being against a couple. An informed minority colluding to orchestrate results in an RAF game would also be interesting to watch.

[Phillammon]

Dying Wish: Two Targets

3x Mafia Goons
6x Townies
1x 1 Shot Cop
1x 1 Shot CPR Doctor
1x 1 Shot Backup

Lynches occur normally.
On being lynched, the lynched player selects 2 targets. These are the only two targets that may be chosen for night actions (including the mafia NK).
Backup only gains the ability of a dead town PR if they haven't used it.

Sound good?

[gorckat]

Intriguing, but is it better with fewer players?

[Hoopla]

Dying Wish: Two Targets

3x Mafia Goons
6x Townies
1x 1 Shot Cop
1x 1 Shot CPR Doctor
1x 1 Shot Backup

Lynches occur normally.
On being lynched, the lynched player selects 2 targets. These are the only two targets that may be chosen for night actions (including the mafia NK).
Backup only gains the ability of a dead town PR if they haven't used it.

Sound good?

I like the idea on the surface, but it can be partially gamed by town massclaiming D1 - scum can now not nightkill any confirmed town player unless a scum is lynched during the day, which is a trade-off town should be happy making. Deliberately lynching a townie D1 to get either an investigation N1 or two nightkills on two unconfirmed players while leaving the three PR's alive is probably the best way to set the town up on D2.

[DCLXVI]

So a while back I went through the approved setup list and I noticed that there was not a single approved open setup with a cult in it. Personally cults are probably my favorite type of scum group so I went and created a cult setup.

Any thoughts on whether or not this is balanced would be appreciated. I'm open to suggestions as well.

1 cult leader

1 mafia goon

1 mafia two-shot watcher

2 of the following: Docter, Jailer, Cop, Investigator.
1 one-shot census taker
7 vanilla townies

Role specifics:

Spoiler:

Cult Leader:

-Has night-kill immunity night 1.
-limited to three recruiting attempts.
-is not allowed to recruit more than 2 players. (max total of three cultists, both living and dead)
-cannot recruit mafia members or power roles.
-the cult have a factional roleblock ability, can be used by any member but not at the same time as recruiting.

Mafia Goon:

-Cannot be recruited by the cult
-Can send in factional nightkill.

Mafia two-shot watcher

-Targets a player and see everyone who targets that player.
-Cannot send in the factional kill and use the watch ability on the same night.

Doctor:

-Protects target against mafia kill
-Does not stop cult conversion

Jailer:

-role-blocks target
-Protects target from cult conversion
-Does not protect from mafia kill

Cop:

-Recieves results in the format: Mafia/Not Mafia

Investigator:

-Receives results in the format: Cult/not Cult
-If a vt is converted the same night as the investigation the result will be cult.

One-Shot Census Taker

-Once at any point in the game the census taker may PM the mod and ask how many cultists are alive in the game. The mod will pm back with the amount of cultists.

Some other stuff:

-Jailer and investigator work against the cult. Cop and doctor work against the mafia.

-I really like keeping the town pr's as 2of4 simply because it helps prevent the lategame massclaim that can often break completely open setups.
-With the 4 possible prs duplicates are not possible.

-The setup is a little swingy. I might need a way to fix that. On the other hand, any multiball setup is going to be like that do to the cross-kill possibility. The fact that the cult does not have unlimited conversion and can't be killed of night 1 should prevent most problems related to the cult.
---------
Edit: added factional roleblock to the cult team.

[Cobblerfone]

If there's an investigator, they will always claim D1, seeing as the mafia wouldn't want them dead until the cult was eliminated, and the cult can't do anything to get rid of them.

[DCLXVI]

If there's an investigator, they will always claim D1, seeing as the mafia wouldn't want them dead until the cult was eliminated, and the cult can't do anything to get rid of them.

Yeah, that's a problem.

Hm, I hadn't thought about that but another bad scenario could be if the mafia got lynched town could just no-lynch and let the investigator check things out until the entire cult is found.

A few ways to solves this:
1) Change investigator to tracker, allowing him to catch the cult converting but not able to catch them that.

2) Give the cult a faction roleblock, the one problem with this is that it would end up being used only on the investigator once the invest claims a guilty, but that will be the tradeoff the invest will have to be willing to make when he claims.

3) Make the investigator have only 3-4 attempts. This prevents the prolonged no-lynch scenario.
4) Change the four possible pr's.
5) Not allow for a no-lynch, this would prevent town from doing a no-lynch + investigation after the mafia is dead.

Yeah, cult setups are difficult to balance, but I would think that number 2 would be the best option to solve this one problem.

[Scigatt]

White Flag^2

4x Mafia Goons
9x Vanilla Townies

Town wins when there are only 2 Mafia Goons left.
I've given this setup a name in accordance with a previous setup, but I came up with it considering an entirely more insane setup.

[zoraster]

they only have two mislynches?

[Scigatt]

they only have two mislynches?

Both sides have only 2 mislynches.

You can adjust the number if you want, though.
Edit:The Mafia has only one mislynch.

[gorckat]

If there's an investigator, they will always claim D1, seeing as the mafia wouldn't want them dead until the cult was eliminated, and the cult can't do anything to get rid of them.

Yeah, that's a problem.

Hm, I hadn't thought about that but another bad scenario could be if the mafia got lynched town could just no-lynch and let the investigator check things out until the entire cult is found.

<snip>

Yeah, cult setups are difficult to balance, but I would think that number 2 would be the best option to solve this one problem.

Off the cuff idea- is there room for an 'all factions lose if no factions have won by X day'?

[Phillammon]

Dying Wish: Two Targets

3x Mafia Goons
9x Townies, of which:
1 to 4x 1 Shot CPR Doctors

Lynches occur normally.
On being lynched, the lynched player selects 2 targets. These are the only two targets that may be chosen for night actions (including the mafia NK).
Backup only gains the ability of a dead town PR if they haven't used it.

Better? I realize that the random aspect may be a problem, and it may have swinginess due to the whole CPR thing.

[yellowbounder]

Victoria II

2 Assassins

(standard scumteam, NK, talk at night)

1 Hero

(kills King if executed, cannot be selected as King once revealed)

1 Kingmaker

(if NKd or lynched, new Kingmaker is randomly selected from Villagers)
8 Villagers

Okay, removed the requirement that Kingmaker can't claim? Does that lead to a breaking strategy?

Also, I worry the Town is too powerful. Would increasing Assassins to 3, balance it out?

[BBmolla]

@Phil: Maybe take the first setup and give Mafia a factional daykill.

Edit: With tweaking, maybe try allowing the lynched player to select 3 targets and have it so power roles can only use abilities if they are selected. Gives a nice risk/reward kind of deal.