Open 421-Pamplona II: Electric Bullgaloo! Game over

[drmyshotgun]

Not getting a good vibe from DJD, but getting an even worse vibe from RachMarie. Do her ISO and look at the fencesitting, sheeping, and actively lurking behaviour she's exhibiting.

Vote:RachMarie

Rach, what do you think of DJD, Drmyshotty, Bitmap and Greywing?

So I take it that your baloney of a case on me evaporated?
I thought you went through everyone when you voted me.

[Rainbowdash]

I said i doubted scum were on bit's wagon. It got to 5 votes in under 3 real days iirc and was mostly based on nonsense. Tell me, would scum really think that wagon would go anywhere? If not, would they put themselves in a position to cast one of the later votes without explanation like andrew? Is there a way to tell the difference between a random vote from scum and a random vote from town that starts a wagon? I dont think so. The early wagon was a crap wagon, and ive said as much before.

Ok here is a common misconception from your arguements; the early bitmap wagon was REALLY good. I thought bit was scum up until the reaction to the unvote from BK when they started dropping town tells. At the same time, arguing that scum avoided a big wagon all is WIFOM and tends to be playstyle dependant for most scum. There are a few who will get on every wagon, and some who wont touch anything.

Given that i dont think scum would have wagoned bitmap at that point, and there is no difference between the first few rv's made by scum and made by town, who logically follows as scum? Those doing nothing during rvs, a stage where the most finger pointing occurs and those in the spotlight get shat on, or those who are stirring shit up? Ya, there are active scum (greywing when hes scum for one), but its so much easier to just do nothing. Mcstab, bk, hyperion, and a few others were just sitting there watching the bit wagon occur without giving any opinion at all. As scum, that would be because the wagon is shit and would likely break. Sit and wait, something will happen, then post later. I saw bk posting in other threads and decided a lurker vote was best.

Its actually harder (and poorer play) to do nothing as scum in 90% of situations. Again you are trying to break down things into what scum do and dont do... when it simply depends who scum is. If you look at any of my scum games, I tend to be very vocal and push everything because it does a much better job of playing to my wincondition. As you can see here, I do the exact same thing as town because it ALSO plays to my wincondition.

What is your BK case now though? Since you have voted him all you have said is that his bit vote was bad (not explained it really) which I actually disagree with for the mostpart, as again Bit would have been my vote if I was in the game right up until the moment that they attacked BK. From what I can tell your entire case on BK is "lurkey and bad (thats argueable) vote".

I left my vote on bk, because his posts after responding to my prod sucked. His reasoning for voting and unvoting bitmap and putting him at L-1 sucked. Hes still scummy, and ive said as much before.

What does "sucked" entail and why is it more likely a scum than town whatever. Why is he still scummy?

I dont know if shotty is scum or not, you got me there. Id like for him to talk more about why he thought you were scum but then that he should join your wagon though. His response to getting called out also sucks.

You are still doing it but seem to have made up your mind. You are attacking him because he changed a read (my slot) and is now agreeing with me and attacking your slot. This probably isnt something you would be commenting much if at all on if he joined me on somepony random.

PS: Pinkiepie>>>>>>>rainbowdash, and tldr your argument doesnt reflect the truth of what actually happened in the game.

Pinkie is second or third depending on mood. Your arguements all hinge around the "bit wagon was bad" theory which I really disagree with, as does im assuming anypony who voted bit, and that goes a long way to making all of your cases exceedingly subjective.

@MS - You should bus DJD instead. RM is lurkey which is a pain to play with, but a few of her posts are kinda townish. What parts of my DJD case do you agree with and what parts do you disagree with? All of your pushes there are really vauge and I cant tell heads from tails in how close they are in scummyness or anything else along those lines.

[DoubleJD]

You've abandoned your previous argument against me and are now arguing that im bad/dumb, countering my own wifom stuff without your own. Whatevs, disagreement does not determine alignment and your first post is a strong misrep.

My main argument for bk came after i voted him. Beforehand i was just getting him to talk. He responds to the vote the same day, after being absent for 2days, and immediately votes bitmap to put him at L-1 one. He does this for pressure reasons, becasue bitmap wasnt already flailing about and responding to every post about him. He liked the response of two one liner posts enough to completely change his opinion on him and unvote just 2 hours later. The unvote itself was after several posts of "woah wtf bk" by inte, greywing, and shotty. He wasnt prepared to defend the vote, because i think he didnt have a reason at all, and backed off.

That whole thing looks scummy to me, and im happier lynching him right now than most other players. I might switch my vote to near or mcstab (meh), or rach (she looks scummy), but johnny looks towny, i dont get shotty or inte yet, grey doesnt look like the scum he was when he played with me, uber hasnt really said anything yet, you've just started saying things, and dlg is probably town.

[BK201]

I'll read this tonight. Till then!

[UberNinja]

You're starting to sound like me.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Bastards -.-

I can't come to any conclusion on JD.... I keep reading his posts and just get nothing.
@DJD, what makes you ok with a mcstab vote?

[Rainbowdash]

Well trying to respond to a response at almost 2AM is never going to be a good thing, especially when I think you missed a few of my bigger points. The stance on the wagon of Bit just seems a little tough to swallow for me, when you make a statement that seems to call out the quiet players on the wagon, but are now trying to say you thought the wagon was mostly town/scum off the wagon.

That already is a bit awkward since while it happens, its rare for a wagon to be entirely town backed, especially a wagon on somepony you are saying is town to be all town backed. Why is it that you think the lurkers off that wagon are the ones that are more likely scum than those who are on the wagon?

If that is the entire reason you are voting BK (wagon more baseless than I thought?) I dont get it. If BK was scum trying to get a lynch of bit or something which you seem to try and be justifying at this point, why does BK unvote and call bit town suddenly? That on its own is a bit of a town reaction because he was obviously going to catch flack for that move to start, scum trying to get a lynch could have made something up in half a second if they wanted to since Bit was amazingly scummy. I could probably write a case on why Bit is still scum the play from the first half of the game was so bad, its something that I think BK-scum is easily able to do, and im not seeing the scum motivation from the removal of the vote, just a reaction to inte flipping out.

What is going on with you and your DMS read now though? You seem to be trying to call him scum for sheeping me still but avoiding doing it explicitly. BK still scum or is he town now?

[DLG]

Hmmm, the fresh eyes from Rainbowdash may be on to something. I haven't traced all the argument. I don't have time tonight.

I still want answers from Near. If I'm misunderstanding something I want to know what it is. All I'm seeing is Near avoided all the early game Bitmap stuff and the inte/BK201 stuff. Then, when prodded, showed up and said that the two big suspeccts of the moment were scummy and "hurr, durr, they're prolly buddies, I'mma vote on the wagon which has the best chance of resurging". Then, tried to LOL his way out of any accountability.

Yeah, scum. Why isn't he getting voted?

@ drmyshotgun
I'm pretty interested in your Town read on Near. Is it just the out of the blue, unsupported Town reads that make you think he's town?

@ Rainbowdash
I'll review your case against DoubleJD and his responses tomorrow. You got any kind of read on Near?

There's too much flat lurking going on. Not everyone can be scum, I guess, but it sure feels that way.

[drmyshotgun]

@DLG: What scum intentions are in Near's posts? Are you telling me those out-of-the-blue random, tiring comments are from Scum's mind?

[Rainbowdash]

@ Rainbowdash
I'll review your case against DoubleJD and his responses tomorrow. You got any kind of read on Near?

I wouldnt be super opposed to his lynch given his calling of Bit not scum and then turning around sheeping onto the wagon. I just think DJD is more likely scum as Near tends to be a really flakey hard to read player, feel I could read him more accurately if I got a scum flip first from somepony else.

[DoubleJD]

Im quoting now, because you dont read walls and are continually misreping me. BRB johnny

The stance on the wagon of Bit just seems a little tough to swallow for me, when you make a statement that seems to call out the quiet players on the wagon, but are now trying to say you thought the wagon was mostly town/scum off the wagon.

Not particularly. I dont expect many scum to be on it anyway just because its a super early wagon. Whats more interesting to me, is the people not interested in it at all. Like mr bk201 for example.

VOTE: bk201, talk to me baby. Whatcha thinking about? Are you pro or anti bit!

Im not "now saying" anything. My position has not changed since i made my case for bit.

That already is a bit awkward since while it happens, its rare for a wagon to be entirely town backed, especially a wagon on somepony you are saying is town to be all town backed. Why is it that you think the lurkers off that wagon are the ones that are more likely scum than those who are on the wagon?

I clarified this in my first response to you. Or maybe my second, i dont remember. Read the posts of your scumspect please :/

If that is the entire reason you are voting BK (wagon more baseless than I thought?) I dont get it. If BK was scum trying to get a lynch of bit or something which you seem to try and be justifying at this point,

I pointed this out when he did it.

BK just what? Your reasoning for voting bitmap, and unvoting him smurfs.

No it wasnt explicitly stated. I think its pretty clear i dont think this was a town act though.

why does BK unvote and call bit town suddenly?

weird aint it

That on its own is a bit of a town reaction because he was obviously going to catch flack for that move to start, scum trying to get a lynch could have made something up in half a second if they wanted to since Bit was amazingly scummy. I could probably write a case on why Bit is still scum the play from the first half of the game was so bad, its something that I think BK-scum is easily able to do, and im not seeing the scum motivation from the removal of the vote, just a reaction to inte flipping out.

By this time, i have made a case for bitmap's wagon being bad. I made a big wall refuting the entire argument against him, and as is the norm for this game, few (no one?) commented on it. I can see a scum ignoring it and voting to put bit at L-1. Then, 3 people are suddenly weirded out by another bitmap vote. Quick, better backtrack to save face! It was uh, a pressure vote! Ya, becasue bitmap hasnt been posting 25/8 since being accused of being scum. Looks a lot like a something he made up in half a second, and it looks super scummy.

What is going on with you and your DMS read now though? You seem to be trying to call him scum for sheeping me still but avoiding doing it explicitly. BK still scum or is he town now?

Beats me. He doesnt care to answer which i can wifom as being townie (why wouldnt scum answer!) or hes avoiding it because it looks bad (omg scummy!). Maybe he just changed his mind or his read wasnt that strong. Its not like hyperion had many posts. I have no idea what to make of it, and id wish he'd answer. As to bk, my previous post says i think hes scum still :/

Because of the haphazard way of attacking me, its hard to believe you're mafia though.

[DoubleJD]

In contrast to my last post, brievety.

Im ok with a mcstab lynch, because of general lurkyness, going with the flow, and an absence of scum hunting.

[BK201]

UNVOTE:

Reading tomorrow.

[UberNinja]

Sorry guys, *something else* -cough, cough- stole the brunt of my attention on-site tonight.

[JohnnyFarrar]

yeeaaahhh

VOTE: Uber

[drmyshotgun]

Uber, replace out.
Johnny, you

know

that will be a wasted vote.

[JohnnyFarrar]

The town thing to do would be replacing out. The scum thing to do is claim you're reading for four days. My vote moves when I see something useful out of that slot.

[drmyshotgun]

Let me translate for others: I'm gonna sit, do nothing until this person does something.
Tell me Johnny, what have you done so far?
Is Uber's contribution so gravely important that you just vote him and ignore other things?
Do you have a suspect other than Uber?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Did I say I was just gonna sit here with my thumb in an uncomfortable place? No I did not. I'm putting my vote on the person that exhibits the most scummy behavior. I have other suspects, but none more deserving of my vote.

[UberNinja]

In about four hours I'm gonna be able to sit down with this game and give it about half an hour. Then I should be able to give it an hour or so tonight as well. Have no fear.

[Bitmap]

yeeaaahhh

VOTE: Uber

Uhh why?

The town thing to do would be replacing out. The scum thing to do is claim you're reading for four days. My vote moves when I see something useful out of that slot.

I never actually liked voting someone for the sole reason that they are lurking and Uber could just be refusing to replace because he hasn't really done anything yet. I'd admit he did try to give us some reads a bit earlier and I'm waiting to hear the rest of his reads. We have time, no need to rush this.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.08

Bitmap - 3 - UberNinja, Near, Greywing
DoubleJD - 2 - Rainbowdash, drmyshotgun
Near - 2 - DLG, Bitmap
BK201 - 1 - DoubleJD
Greywing - 1 - inte
inte - 1 - RachMarie
RachMarie - 1 - McStab
UberNinja - 1 - JohnnyFarrar

Not Voting: BK201

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

V/LA: ...

Deadline: (expired on 2012-08-01 03:51:02)

[JohnnyFarrar]

yeeaaahhh

VOTE: Uber

Uhh why?

Over continues to post without contributing while using the same excuse all the while. If she were that busy she would replace out (so, you know, someone with more freetime could fill that slot and actually play to their win condition). The current play just fills that slot with uselessness, and I'd rather have her be dead instead of being a giant question mark.

[Rainbowdash]

Im not "now saying" anything. My position has not changed since i made my case for bit.

Early on you are way more concerned with the composition of the wagon on Bit instead of actually trying to get the wagon off him if you thought it was on town. I still think when you mesh it with

Theres too many silent ppl to wagon her this fast when we all know her join date.

Its sounding like you are calling players on the wagon scum specifically. There is a difference between saying that a wagon sucks and calling out players (or a group of players) as scum.

For the whole BK thing I think we are never going to see eye to eye since I thought there was almost nothing wrong with the vote, the unvote, and everything around there. Bit was AMAZINGLY scummy up to that point and the defending of him almost seems a little white-knightish. Maybe looking back its because DGL focused on some things that are obviously null and missed some things I saw as scummy, but I dunno. Think as scum with a wagon building that fast I would have debated trying to deflect off some of a Bit-town wagon. Then again its WIFOM I guess. Maybe its you arguing points dont work instead of why he is town which is what I tend to think of legit town defending other works on past defending bunk things.

BK is not scum for voting a scummy player who only starts towntelling AFTER they got put at L-1. Im not sure how I would react to a situation like that where after putting a player I thought was scum at L-1 for any reason they started to look town. The fact that he reacted in that way really makes me think town not knowing what to do.

Beats me. He doesnt care to answer which i can wifom as being townie (why wouldnt scum answer!) or hes avoiding it because it looks bad (omg scummy!). Maybe he just changed his mind or his read wasnt that strong. Its not like hyperion had many posts. I have no idea what to make of it, and id wish he'd answer. As to bk, my previous post says i think hes scum still :/

What are you trying to get out of DMS at least? Are you expecting him to come up with a whole bunch of supplementary stuff to my case or just say again that he is sheeping?

What is your read on Near? You say MS is a good lynch, better or worse than BK?

@Near - Why are you voting Bit?

Im thinking Bit, DLG, BK are town... with that last vote JF is probably town but he needs to not throw away a vote. Grey I also have a town read on... so thats pretty good.

Theory wise we need to massclaim tomorrow. I did a C9++ a while ago and a massclaim D2 would have basically won the game for town. Unfortunately after I got killed N1 they decided not to massclaim until D3, and then somepony lied about their claim which turned a forced win into a loss...

Either way, if im alive or not you DO massclaim tomorrow, as if its more than just a couple roles for us, it really is going to start semi-clearing players. This is especially true if a non-goon flips or if there is ever evidence (like two kills) of a SK.

unvote

Im going to think. DJD still really bugs me though.

Ooooh! Also I forgot

Hypo-hide claims. Always good in these situations.

If im a hider im going behind DJD tonight.

[Greywing]

Theory wise we need to massclaim tomorrow. I did a C9++ a while ago and a massclaim D2 would have basically won the game for town. Unfortunately after I got killed N1 they decided not to massclaim until D3, and then somepony lied about their claim which turned a forced win into a loss...

Either way, if im alive or not you DO massclaim tomorrow, as if its more than just a couple roles for us, it really is going to start semi-clearing players. This is especially true if a non-goon flips or if there is ever evidence (like two kills) of a SK.

Forgive the newbieness here, but how does a massclaim really help us on D2? Wouldn't that just give scum a list of who to kill?

@Rach, Near: Outside of the person you're currently voting, who is your top scumread, and why?