Judge, Jury, and Executioner - Over

[guille2015]

Unvote: Sir bastion

What purpose would town have in knowing who the mafia selected?

Mafia control the judicial system.

and they control who gets tried where.

and if scum gets sent to the executioner and gets pardoned, then the role seems very useful to catch that executioner. its like a modified tracker.

This is basically my opinion on Shadow's PR. Albeit, not as useful this early in the game, might be of good use later in the game. So my guess is that this lynch is taking place because you guys don't buy the PR? That shouldn't be a valid reason to lynch this early in the game. I think it started with an apparent fence sitting, but there has to be something else. Can those on the lynch Elaborate?

[WrathChild]

What purpose would town have in knowing who the mafia selected?

Mafia control the judicial system.

and they control who gets tried where.

and if scum gets sent to the executioner and gets pardoned, then the role seems very useful to catch that executioner. its like a modified tracker.

We won't know if scum is sent to the Execution if they get pardoned. Technically every person on trial has the highest potential to be scum that day. That's why they are defendants, because we deemed them most scummy at that point in time. This is why its critical that whoever was selected executioner claim and take responsibility for the Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down. Only scum would want to avoid that and it seems very obvious.

So what good is an executioner tracker? On top of that, he has to hit a moving target for it to be any good (target the same person that the mafia targeted). The only reason I'm hesitating a bit is because I can't tell if it is poorly conceived or extremely weak as designed. So if we call the claim itself null the next step is to look at Shadow's play.

Here's a link to Shadows ISO:
HERE

Please take 25 seconds and read it (Yes, I really timed it).

I'd be willing to hammer Shadow, I see really nothing but liabilities (a false guilty being principal among those) with the role and a player not willing to contribute anything to actually finding scum. He called for the Judge to claim, which is incredibly scummy considering the rest of his play this game. In fact, the more I think about it the worse an idea the Judge claiming sounds. If the mafia control who goes to which branch of the judicial system and they know who is the judge, they have a very strong chance of knowing which way the judge will act upon receiving a certain player. For example if the mafia knows A) Mastermind is the Judge and B) DoomYoshi is town, they will by default know that C) Mastermind will kill Doomyoshi. They can't know C if they don't know A. If they do know A then they know to send Doomyoshi to the judge. Does that make sense?

[Nocmen]

Nero, why are you afraid to hammer Shadow if you think he's scum, and what's a vote on Gullie gonna do, with only 1 lynch left?

Which head am I talking to? I wanna know which one is a moron.

I only have 1 vote left (since my first two are locked on Arg) I've

NEVER

voted Guille and I unvoted vijay a long long time ago.

Geez.. that was supposed to be Nocmen.

"Nocmen, why are you afraid to hammer Shadow if you think he's scum, and what's a vote on Gullie gonna do, with only 1 lynch left?"

Because I like where the conversation is going today and I am in no means ready for day to end yet.

[WrathChild]

By poorly conceived, I am referring to the potential of it being a fake-claim.

[Nocmen]

Also:

Mod: My last vote was is guille, not vijay.

[Nocmen]

And one more, in reply to Ser:

I can't really hammer Shadow when I already have two votes on him.

[IceGuy]

Vote Count

TheShadow (10): DCLXVI, Axelrod, Gooner, Gooner, Nocmen, Axelrod, Thor665, Nero Cain, Sir Bastion, Nocmen

Sir Bastion (5): Teleporting Speed Hippos, vijay2vasandani, Gooner, StrangerCoug, Scott Brosius
DoomYoshi (4): guille2015, DCLXVI, Mastermind of Sin, Mastermind of Sin
guille2015 (4): Scott Brosius, Scott Brosius, Nero Cain, Nocmen
vijay2vasandani (3): Nero Cain, guille2015, Arugula
Ser Panda (3): StrangerCoug, StrangerCoug, Mastermind of Sin
Quilford (2): Sir Bastion, Sir Bastion
Nocmen (2): Knight of Cydonia, Thor665
Nero Cain (1): whispersilk
DCLXVI (1): whispersilk

9

votes are currently not on a player.

Arugula (11): Quilford, vijay2vasandani, vijay2vasandani, Thor665, Teleporting Speed Hippos, Teleporting Speed Hippos, DoomYoshi, Ser Panda, Nero Cain, Nero Cain, TheShadow
Thor665 (11): Ser Panda, Ser Panda, Knight of Cydonia, Knight of Cydonia, Quilford, Quilford, DoomYoshi, DoomYoshi, whispersilk, Arugula, Arugula

Every player has

3

votes.
With

21

alive, it's

11

to hammer.
There are

63

votes in play,

22

of which are frozen, leaving

41

votes active.

Deadline is August 11th, 3 a.m. CEST.

Mod: My last vote was is guille, not vijay.

Fixed. Please bold questions to the mod so they're easier to see.

[guille2015]

We won't know if scum is sent to the Execution if they get pardoned. Technically every person on trial has the highest potential to be scum that day. That's why they are defendants, because we deemed them most scummy at that point in time. This is why its critical that whoever was selected executioner claim and take responsibility for the Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down. Only scum would want to avoid that and it seems very obvious.

So what good is an executioner tracker? On top of that, he has to hit a moving target for it to be any good (target the same person that the mafia targeted). The only reason I'm hesitating a bit is because I can't tell if it is poorly conceived or extremely weak as designed. So if we call the claim itself null the next step is to look at Shadow's play.

I believe you answered your own question here. How likely is it that mafia would claim executioner the next day? An "executioner tracker" will expose this of course.

[WrathChild]

We won't know if scum is sent to the Execution if they get pardoned. Technically every person on trial has the highest potential to be scum that day. That's why they are defendants, because we deemed them most scummy at that point in time. This is why its critical that whoever was selected executioner claim and take responsibility for the Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down. Only scum would want to avoid that and it seems very obvious.

So what good is an executioner tracker? On top of that, he has to hit a moving target for it to be any good (target the same person that the mafia targeted). The only reason I'm hesitating a bit is because I can't tell if it is poorly conceived or extremely weak as designed. So if we call the claim itself null the next step is to look at Shadow's play.

I believe you answered your own question here. How likely is it that mafia would claim executioner the next day? An "executioner tracker" will expose this of course.

This still doesn't address the problem of moving targets or Shadow's play, but I do see your point.

[Thor665]

no the theory is scum control the judicial system and that just because you got hammered doesn't mean you're dead. and when arugula flips scum, it gives you a mountain of town-cred.

you don't think this is a possibility?

I strongly agree that if Arugula flips scum it gives me a mountain of town cred, yes...

and if scum gets sent to the executioner and gets pardoned, then the role seems very useful to catch that executioner. its like a modified tracker.

If you think of it like a modified tracker with an exceedingly limited scope and far weaker than any other tracker variant I've ever seen - yes, it's like that.

What it's sort of like is an SK kill tracker - insomuch as if it targets the person the SK kills it will be told it was an SK kill and not a Mafia kill - that's actually pretty similar to how useful it is....except that towards the end of the game the power goes away, we need to work that in there somewhere.

Thor's voting for sir bastion expecting him to flip scum.
When I vote for him, he asks me in a tone which tells me hes expecting bastion to flip town and asks me for my case.

My tone?
My tone...
Right. Okay then. I thought for a second it was something I said, if it was tone then...yeah, sure, whatevs.

but thor keeps calling it RVS reasoning.
keeps waffling on a sir bastion read.
still keeps both of his votes on him all the while when sir bastion was L-2.

Let's go to THE AMAZING ISO OF UNPOSSIBLE!!!

And I'm keeping him at L-2 because it amuses me and because I don't think he's town.

OMG!!! That is SO VAGUE! Look at that waffle of waffletactiness.
HOW COME THOR CAN'T CLEARLY SAY WHAT HE THINKS!?! You see, by his "tone" I can tell what Thor really meant is "I have no read on the slot...wait, town, wait scum!"
Brilliant!

Do you have scumreads on any of the top five wagons? (those with 6+ votes)

Let's see - I moved a vote to Arugula.
I'm double voting Sir Bastion.

Nah, clearly I think both are obv. town and am just playing badly. What of it?[/b]

I'm doing it for RVS, I was curious why you were doing it.

I see a contradiction.

can you help me understand the bolded?

Your high and mighty attitude fails pretty bad if you can't be rational.

That's not actually a contradiction.

Post 1: I think 2 players are scummy.
Post 2: My reasoning is RVS.

The only way that is a contradiction is, as I've said, if your definition of RVS is "totally random" and I already told you clearly that my definition is NOT that nd that if we use your definition than my vote WAS NOT RVS.

So...whut?

[Thor665]

I could provide links to the RVS conversation too, if you missed that along with my blatantly clear opinion of Bation's alignment.

But it's good to know you actually came to the conclusions of your case by not reading what I was writing. Thankfully you read my tone, and that's almost as good...except for the almost and good parts.

[Thor665]

If you think when I say RVS I mean totally random, blurple-blurple' then, yes, my vote was not RVS.

It's good to know I wasted time talking to someone who doesn't read what is said in the game and makes cases based on contradictions...

Okay, i *think* I'm done with the rage and self wallowing.

tl:dr

Thor *is* obv. town.
The wagon on him *does* contain scum.
There was no contradictions.
I still (and dear gawd it amazes me) think Ser Panda is town and not scum.
Oh, and Shadow's role claim is still super terrible.

Also - I'll not that Wrath whotshisname dodged my question to him about the contradiction and went off on other things. This is another reason I think the wagon on me is derp and scum and also a reason to suspect that Ser Panda is amongst the not scum faction.

[Thor665]

@Doom Yoshi - feel free to weigh in on the points I was running in circles from my opinion. I'm certain YOU can explain the clear logic of this wagon now that there are some quotes out there and everything.

[TheShadow]

*sigh*

What happened to the days when I could safely lurk through the first few days of a Large..

Alright, fine. It seems the only way I can prove I'm town is with a flip. The wagon on me I'm sure is scum-driven at this point, as since my last post I see nothing useful being said.

Someone just hammer or I'll do it myself.

[Thor665]

What happened to the days when I could safely lurk through the first few days of a Large..

You do that a lot as town?

[WrathChild]

Alright, fine. It seems the only way I can prove I'm town is with a flip. The wagon on me I'm sure is scum-driven at this point, as since my last post I see nothing useful being said.

Someone just hammer or I'll do it myself.

A) This is terrible and/or lazy logic. There are a million things you can do to prove you're town without a flip. How is this scum driven? Do you think a weak role claim should automatically clear you as town and you could continue to do nothing for this game?

Do yourself a favor an read your own ISO. If anything, the people on the wagon are probably more town than scum.

B) A self hammer is basically a scum-claim in my book.

[Nero Cain]

I never said I found it scummy. I was just questioning it because it might lead to a scum doing something scummy.

As it is your position is now clear to me although I am still curious as to why it's better for him to claim later than it is for him to claim now.

You don't think it was scummy but it might lead to scum doing something scummy? What the, how does that work?

I may not want him to claim at all. Hence the maybe part. Call it fence sitting, whatever you like.

What purpose would town have in knowing who the mafia selected?

Mafia control the judicial system.

and they control who gets tried where.

and if scum gets sent to the executioner and gets pardoned, then the role seems very useful to catch that executioner. its like a modified tracker.

An Exe can be either alignment so its not like town can't be useless and pardon scum.

lol. If anyone is getting worked up its ya'll. My attack is NOT based on you guys thinkin' that Arg/Thor are scum (though I think its scummy fencesitting) The attack is based on one of your heads deflecting Thor's question. Sayin' "OH BUT LOOK I'M ON THE OTHER WAGON TOO!!!." is extremly cheeky. Its minimal and derpy. Then was the time to say "oh I think they are both scum so I'm happy with Thor as a defendent." Saying "I'm on the other wagon." is NOT.

You should actually read properly.
but yeah I forgive you.
your school-girl crush on thor is the problem.

Thor's question was dumb considering I think arugula is scum.

And you're actually sheeping the reason I used to vote for arugula.

So thats pretty funny also.

My man crush on Thor aside, I think he asked a resonable question. Your "I'm on the other wagon!!!" is

NOT

"oh but I think both slots are scum." Yeah this slot is scum.

I'm done with work for today but I noticed something that I'll throw out there before I go:

"The Executioner is like the Judge, except chosen by the Mafia every night. They can be of any alignment, but not a defendant, and will not flip as such."

Why would knowing who the executioner was be helpful to the town? Since it does not dictate alignment in anyway, town should 100% claim if they were the Executioner the previous night and take responsibility for their decision.

I still think this is important. No one commented on it, so I'm bumping it.

I'm not against this. Infact if we were to impliment this then mafia would probs not pick thie buddy to be the EXE.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm for a judge claim, since it gives us a confirmed town. But don't claim unless you're close to hammer.

SC

help me understand this.

Isn't what shadow said common sense?

Yes.

My stated reason for voting you is because you acted like Thor should not care about what other people think, which is patently false. If you think the "shenanigans" are scummy, then you think the "shenanigans" are scummy. Disagreeing with me is a null tell and I can understand how people who either are unfamiliar with or do not care about Thor's meta thinks what he has done is scummy.

And about this.

Thor's tone in asking me that came across as someone expecting a sir bastion town flip and then trying to pile up shit on me to use tomorrow which is why I jumped on that.

Explain.

Ok, so you're bascially relying on Thor meta to super hardcore buddy him and say that everyone is stupid for suspecting him? Cool.

Show me where I am attacking anyone other than you for being suspicious of Thor.

Why are you ignoring my request?

Mastermind of Sin, what do you think about what I've said about Ser Panda? I think he is taking me ridiculously out of context regarding Thor665, and we both disagree with Thor's lynch.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please note sig.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Don't you think that if you can't remember his posting it should be cause for concern?

Not really. I could say the same for you and about 10 other people in this thread.

That said, I just went back and looked at TheShadow's ISO. I think his claim is probably legit and I think it's hilariously stupid to want to lynch him Day 1 of all things.

Anyone who has read TheShadow's claim and thinks it's a good idea to kill him

today

is either scum or an idiot.

Take your pick.

[StrangerCoug]

MoS, could you answer my question so I don't feel like two people are blowing me off?

[Mastermind of Sin]

@StrangerCoug: Upon review, I think I agree with Thor that Ser Panda is probably a raging idiot who doesn't know what he's doing, but he's town. (paraphrased) He quite clearly has no logical comprehension of anything Thor has done in this game so far, meta or otherwise. The fact that he's pushing it this vehemently and verbosely makes him more likely to just be retarded. Others on the Thor wagon are more likely to be scum in this case.

Unvote, Vote: Quilford

What do you think about ScumYoshi, SC?

Edit: Chill, SC. I can only get to things so fast.

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry.

As for DoomYoshi, I can get on his lynch if I can't get Ser Panda. I don't buy that "Thor took set panda on a circular logic tour."

[StrangerCoug]

As a matter of fact...

UNVOTE: Sir Bastion
VOTE: DoomYoshi

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good man.