Judge, Jury, and Executioner - Over

[DoomYoshi]

I understand what you mean gooner, but a smart scum team can still get away with town based executioner. For instance, if they chose me as the ex and Arugula as my target, I would kill him for sure. So, if we mislynch, but don't regret the mislynch (for instance we are regretting Thor's lynch) then the Maf can try for an extra kill. Also, say ser panda was lynched. I don't think ser panda is scum,

so as

executioner, I would probably let him live. This then creates doubt for both me and ser panda and could send town down a WIFOM road where both of us end up dying in any case. Which fully proves the point that perhaps the policy should be always kill.

EBWOP

[guille2015]

And yet you still fail to acknowledge that the existence of TheShadow's role explains why the scum even need to choose in the first place.

This is my understanding as well.

[DCLXVI]

I buy theShadow's claim. It's a way to ensure scum can't just pick their buddies every night as Executioners.

Duhr. This is a good point though
Probably a mod-provided fakeclaim.

So which is it?

[Teleporting Speed Hippos]

Which one do you think numb-nuts?

I decided to catch up on the rest tomorrow~

[DCLXVI]

Just give an answer, there's no need to be so defensive.

[Teleporting Speed Hippos]

All my notes are way back near the hammer vote count. I'll look through stuff in the next few days. Putting most stuff in the QT, so if AV comes in before then, I concur.

~P

[StrangerCoug]

What am I failing to address?

that I believed thor was lining up lynches and expecting a ser bastion town flip.

I don't think that's true, personally.

Having a bit of a problem with Teleporting Speed Hippo's attitude.

[IceGuy]

Vote Count

DoomYoshi (9): guille2015, DCLXVI, Mastermind of Sin, Mastermind of Sin, StrangerCoug, Knight of Cydonia, TheShadow, TheShadow, DCLXVI

TheShadow (8): Axelrod, Gooner, Gooner, Nocmen, Axelrod, Nero Cain, Sir Bastion, Nocmen
Sir Bastion (5): Teleporting Speed Hippos, vijay2vasandani, Gooner, Scott Brosius, DCLXVI
guille2015 (3): Scott Brosius, Scott Brosius, Nocmen
Quilford (3): Sir Bastion, Sir Bastion, Mastermind of Sin
vijay2vasandani (2): guille2015, Arugula
Ser Panda (2): StrangerCoug, StrangerCoug
Nocmen (1): Thor665
Nero Cain (1): whispersilk
DCLXVI (1): whispersilk
Knight of Cydonia (1): Thor665

5

votes are currently not on a player.

Arugula (11): Quilford, vijay2vasandani, vijay2vasandani, Thor665, Teleporting Speed Hippos, Teleporting Speed Hippos, DoomYoshi, Ser Panda, Nero Cain, Nero Cain, TheShadow
Thor665 (11): Ser Panda, Ser Panda, Knight of Cydonia, Knight of Cydonia, Quilford, Quilford, DoomYoshi, DoomYoshi, whispersilk, Arugula, Arugula

Every player has

3

votes.
With

21

alive, it's

11

to hammer.
There are

63

votes in play,

22

of which are frozen, leaving

41

votes active.

Deadline is August 11th, 3 a.m. CEST.

Scott Brosius, Arugula and Quilford have been prodded.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If Shadow is telling the truth, you know how stupid it was to claim the role and give the mafia knowledge of that role? Whereas before, they would've been most likely chosen one of their members as the Exe, now it is pretty much WIFOM.

What could've actually been a a bit of a useful role is rendered useless with the mafia knowing of it's existence.

I didn't say TheShadow was playing optimally. Just that he's most likely town. If he was an incredibly skilled player who would think through his claim and not make that kind of mistake, chances are he also wouldn't have gotten run up that early on Day 1 either. The fact that he misplayed his claim like that doesn't make him more scummy...

[Ser Panda]

If Shadow is telling the truth, you know how stupid it was to claim the role and give the mafia knowledge of that role? Whereas before, they would've been most likely chosen one of their members as the Exe, now it is pretty much WIFOM.

What could've actually been a a bit of a useful role is rendered useless with the mafia knowing of it's existence.

I didn't say TheShadow was playing optimally. Just that he's most likely town. If he was an incredibly skilled player who would think through his claim and not make that kind of mistake, chances are he also wouldn't have gotten run up that early on Day 1 either. The fact that he misplayed his claim like that doesn't make him more scummy...

Well, no, I wasn't really talking about his alignment. I was saying how useless a role like that becomes ones it's outed, because IIRC someone (gullie?) said that we shouldn't lynch him because he has a useful role. But the role is pretty much useless ones it is outed (and even before it is somewhat useless, because scum can pick town Exe, but at least it doesn't create as much WIFOM).

So his claim shouldn't really stop people from lynching him if they think he's scum. He basically claimed VT with a role like that, because it is utterly useless now, but *gasp* it might stop people from lynching him because he has a "role". I mean, if anyone was in his position, would they have claimed at all? I think it is better to try and squeeze out of the lynch (or even get lynched for that matter) instead of claiming a role that just gives more info to the mafia. i mean, even if he was lynched (and assuming he is town), all he will really flip is "Bloodhound", which does not give info about what the actual role is.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, that's completely wrong, Ser Panda. TheShadow's role makes him town because it *was* useful, and it makes the setup make sense. It has nothing to do with when he claimed it.

As far as the claim, many people are of different minds. In my personal opinion, PRs should avoid claiming whenever possible unless there is a direct benefit to the town in having them outed. However, some people believe that my policy is anti-town and think that PRs should claim whenever under pressure/threat of lynch. It's a delicate balance to which there is no exact answer. Arguing theory about what he *should* have done with his claim is rather pointless and has no bearing on his alignment or whether or not we should lynch him.

For that matter, if you're making an argument to lynch someone you ARE talking about their alignment. You can't argue for someone's lynch and then be like "I wasn't really talking about his alignment". If that's really the case then you are admitting to not caring whether or not TheShadow is town and just wanting to achieve his lynch regardless of his alignment. Which really doesn't reflect well on you at all...

[Thor665]

If he was an incredibly skilled player who would think through his claim and not make that kind of mistake, chances are he also wouldn't have gotten run up that early on Day 1 either.

*cough*


Though I still haven't claimed, for whatever that means.

That said - you're debating with the wrong people - the Shadow is there in the lynch discussion almost totally through

Nocmen

,

Gooner

, and

Axlerod

who are responsible for 6 of the 8 votes currently on him (also known as 75%).

In other news I can't get a second vote on ither Nocmen or KoC and yet v2v sits there with Guille and...okay, well the other vote is Arugula - which really just means

Guille

should be paying more attention to it)- go figure.

[Arugula]

Sorry I forgot I can still post after being hammered. Reading now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If he was an incredibly skilled player who would think through his claim and not make that kind of mistake, chances are he also wouldn't have gotten run up that early on Day 1 either.

*cough*


Though I still haven't claimed, for whatever that means.

Well, I think you got run up by scum, so that's different. You weren't doing anything remotely scummy, it's just that everyone who voted you is either an idiot or scum. TheShadow, on the other hand, did things that I can see others perceiving as scummy, even though I disagree. He dug himself this hole, but anyone who is paying attention should be able to pretty clearly see he's not the lynch for today.

[TheShadow]

I agree that my play has been sub-optimal up to this point. I get better, especially in larges, on day 2 or 3 once we have some flips to analyze.

I see the argument that I shouldn't have claimed so quickly, and agree with the point behind it. That's just my style. I've claimed before under a lot less pressure than that.
(Sorry can't provide link for meta read though. Game in question was lost in the Great Crash, and anyway was on my main which I am NOT revealing under any circumstances)

I will do an extended reread during night and try to be more useful day 2.

[TheShadow]

Also,

@Thor:

I do plan to play more newbies in the future, however the rules for alts mean I have to qualify for SE before I can /in to the newbie queue. My main is being used strictly for modding at this point.

[Nero Cain]

My man crush on Thor aside, I think he asked a resonable question. Your "I'm on the other wagon!!!" is NOT "oh but I think both slots are scum." Yeah this slot is scum.

I'd like to know what you think the difference is

"I'm on the other wagon." =//= a response to Thor's question.

I never said I found it scummy. I was just questioning it because it might lead to a scum doing something scummy.

As it is your position is now clear to me although I am still curious as to why it's better for him to claim later than it is for him to claim now.

You don't think it was scummy but it might lead to scum doing something scummy? What the, how does that work?

I may not want him to claim at all. Hence the maybe part. Call it fence sitting, whatever you like.

1. Yes. It's called questioning someone. It's how you play Mafia. You question people and you hope that the scum slip up somewhere along the line.

2. You have never stated that this has ever factored into your reasoning.

Your previous logic has always been:

He should definitely not claim now. Maybe later but certainly when he's about to be lynched

Then your sudden shift to include you may not want him to claim at all worries me.

Firstly it is fence sitting.

Secondly it shows that you're not really trying to think about what the best solution to the Judge claim is.

So, what is your position on the Judge claim? Should he or shouldn't he claim?

So...didn't find something scummy but your pressing me on the issue since you think I might be scum? heh ok. Though I'm paranoid and I feel like I'm getting set up.

It wasn't scummy>>>it might be from scum>>>>your chance of stance worries me>>>>>??? I predict a full blown scum read from you next.

Shouldn't you be looking for scummy statements instead?

I also feel like this is a big misrep on your part. I can see both the pros and cons of a judge claim and my hesitation has been clear from the beginning so your "oh but you changed your stance!" is false false false.

Gun to my head? I'd say no.


Tired now but tomarrow we can disscuss your lack of scumhunting.

[Nocmen]

Goddamnit, wait? I thought the executioner was a complete thing on it's own and just was someone who was chosen to force to do the kill. Son of a bitch.

Unvote Shadow
Unvote Shadow
Vote Ser Panda
Vote Teporting Speed Hippos

[Gooner]

And yet you still fail to acknowledge that the existence of TheShadow's role explains why the scum even need to choose in the first place.

Do you need to choose when the answer is obvious?

[Gooner]

Gun to my head? I'd say no.

Thank you. That helps.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And yet you still fail to acknowledge that the existence of TheShadow's role explains why the scum even need to choose in the first place.

Do you need to choose when the answer is obvious?

Exactly. If there was no role that could discover who the executioner was, then there would be no point in introducing a mechanic where the scum have to choose an executioner in the first place. Thus, the existence of the executioner justifies the existence of TheShadow's role, which makes him town.

[Teleporting Speed Hippos]

Just give an answer, there's no need to be so defensive.

I'm not being defensive, it's just blatantly obvious.

I think it's a solid claim that makes sense within the context of the game.
However he's playing scummily so I think the claim could have been provided by the mod as a fakeclaim.

What is the issue? If I've called it a good claim and a fakeclaim, what does that equal? A good fakeclaim!!

Having a bit of a problem with Teleporting Speed Hippo's attitude.

No need to be so shy sugar.
Do you have a problem in that it's making you dislike us, in that you think we're entirely wrong, or in that you think we're scum?

Sorry I forgot I can still post after being hammered. Reading now.

No you didn't. You've posted since being hammered.
I repeat, make sure this dies tonight.

Not read up on the DY wagon yet.
Will get to it lickity spick.

[WrathChild]

While I don't like Hippos stance (or lack there of) on Shadow, I do need agree with him on Arugula, he needs to die tonight. It can't be any more obvious that he is caught scum. The question is, will scum sacrifice their NK (Executioner) to save Arugula. With Shadow's role as claimed the scum will have to risk him to someone else because if he's handed to the Executioner and lives, we know he's scum along with Arugla.

[Sir Bastion]

The question is, will scum sacrifice their NK (Executioner) to save Arugula. With Shadow's role as claimed the scum will have to risk him to someone else because if he's handed to the Executioner and lives, we know he's scum along with Arugla.

???

I'm trying to work out why you felt the need to exposition this since we have no affect on that decision.

[WrathChild]

The point is that scum should know that we will kill Arugula no matter which branch of the system he goes to. If they don't want him dead, they need to send him to the executioner and forfeit the killing of a more pro-town defendant, i.e. Thor.