Open 429: True Love (Game Over)

[Bitmap]

Retaliating against a vote on you and voting someone back: OMGUS
Using emotions as an argument for being town: AtE

For everything else, there's PMyst.

[TeChNoWC]

Ven, I'm still not understanding your reasoning on Bit/Junpei town. Recap please?

[TeChNoWC]

This one is hard. The conflict between OmNom suggest they are NOT scum. Their arguments between OmNom and Bitmap, as well as with Junpei, makes me think a OmNom / Bitmap or Junpei team is unlikely.

This is what you provided, and doesn't make sense.

Basically you were saying at that stage that you thought Om was town, but were working on the idea that Bit and Junpei are town because they could not be scum with Om?

And secondly, Om DEFINITELY isn't scum as we now all know, so how are they at all clear? If anything, their fight with Om is a SCUMTELL, since they wanted to get a townie lynched (that's if we are to assume one way or the other).

Personally I don't see anything to suggest Junpei-town, other than this new Bit suspicion. Tunneled a townie, unwilling to provide reads (keeping his options open), pushed for a quicklynch on a townie, called TAM town because he had no reason to suspect him but couldn't be bothered to analyse the slot, didn't call out his suspected scumminess on Bit yesterday. That doesn't look town to me.

Ven,
Why should we lynch P?
Why should we lynch me?
(I have your reasoning on TAM)

[TeChNoWC]

Notice also that both Junpei and TAM are COMPLETELY unwilling to critique me or shed me in a scummy light?

They are acting like I am conftown, because I am attached to a scumpartner.

[PMysterious]

Retaliating against a vote on you and voting someone back: OMGUS
Using emotions as an argument for being town: AtE

For everything else, there's PMyst.

Um , can you put that in better English please?

[TeChNoWC]

PMyst reads please.

[The Acting Method]

Tech, I haven't even reached you in my Iso...

Who knows I might find you completely scummy after that's done.

[TeChNoWC]

Tech, I haven't even reached you in my Iso...

Who knows I might find you completely scummy after that's done.

Lol.

Why would an ISO 360 your opinion on me (which you stated in the QT that I was town) when you have been conversing with me more intensely than any other player here? You should have a feel for my alignment above anyone else.

[TeChNoWC]

That leaves TAM, Techno, and PM. It really doesn't matter which of the two is scum, one of them and PM are the likely scumteam.

If this is true, then you should be voting PM, because by your PoE he is defo scum.

I'll break it down:

You (supposedly) know you are town.
You think Bit is town.
You think Junpei is town.
You think one of tech/TAM is scum and the other, obviously, town.

Thus, PMYST WOULD HAVE TO BE SCUM BY POE.

[TeChNoWC]

God this game. I want everyone to read all of my posts and respond to every point I have addressed to them.

I don't think I've ever been more frustrated in a game of mafia.

TAM, I have outstanding questions not answered.
Venmar, I have outstanding questions not answered.
Junpei, I have outstanding questions not answered.
PMyst, I have outstanding questions not answered.

Bitmap gets a gold star.

[Venmar]

This is what you provided, and doesn't make sense.

Basically you were saying at that stage that you thought Om was town, but were working on the idea that Bit and Junpei are town because they could not be scum with Om?

And secondly, Om DEFINITELY isn't scum as we now all know, so how are they at all clear?

If anything, their fight with Om is a SCUMTELL,

since

they wanted to get a townie lynched

(that's if we are to assume one way or the other).

- What is there not to get? The first bolded part made me just laugh out loud because it made no sense. Look at back at the early arguments OmNom had with Bitmap, and then look at his arguments with Junpei. If you look at them, you can clearly see that they are a Town vs Town debate. The attitude Junpei uses to attack OmNom is really aggressive, and he doesn't drop his guns, while OmNom does the same. How often do you see scum vs town debates like that? Never. If Junpei was bussing, then idk, but at the very least his pair should go tomorrow, not day. Then the underlined sentence is just ridiculous, and you cant be serious that you are going to use that to justify anything? I can throw the same blame on everyone on the OmNom wagon and call them scum for wanting to get him lynched, you can call me scum for wanting to lynch CitySnake. That comment holds no water, and I am surprised you made that comment.

Personally I don't see anything to suggest Junpei-town, other than this new Bit suspicion.

Tunneled a townie,

unwilling to provide reads (keeping his options open),

pushed for a quicklynch on a townie

, called TAM town because he had no reason to suspect him but couldn't be bothered to analyse the slot, didn't call out his suspected scumminess on Bit yesterday. That doesn't look town to me.

Ven,
Why should we lynch P?
Why should we lynch me?
(I have your reasoning on TAM)

- The bolded parts are not reasons to call him scum. You are using knowledge of the flip to blame him for doing something he didn't know he was. None of us knew if OmNom and CitySnake were town, I though Om was town and City was scum, Junpei thought Om was scum, so did you, so what gives? I can never word this properly, but Junpei didn't know Om was town, and you are attacking him now that you know what the alignment of Om was and using it against him. No.

- We should lynch P for obvious reasons, I don't think you need me to explain.
- We should lynch you because of TAM. You cant seriously expect me to give a scum read on you when I have a scum read on TAM? You're recent questions and posts were actually a bit off in my opinion, and could be comign from scum, but TAM looks worse. You two are covering up what TAM has been saying as well. If I think TAM is lynch worthy, then I don't think I should say why I want to lynch you because if I lynch TAM you're gone, regardless if you look townie or not.

[Venmar]

If this is true, then you should be voting PM, because by your PoE he is defo scum.

I'll break it down:

You (supposedly) know you are town.
You think Bit is town.
You think Junpei is town.
You think one of tech/TAM is scum and the other, obviously, town.

Thus, PMYST WOULD HAVE TO BE SCUM BY POE.

- Not necessarily. If you and TAM are both somewhat likely to flip scum, I would prefer to bet my money on a lynch where I think either of the partners could flip scum. You are saying I should lynch PM because she is in my lover group and since i KNOW I am town, she is probably not. It's a fair assumption, but again, I know i am town, and I would rather aim at a pair where the possibility of a scum flip isn't just 50% but over 50%. Not to mention you seemed to want to lynch TAM/You in the beginning of this day, your 180 turn to make me change my course to PM is very interesting.

[The Acting Method]

Tech, still working on doing my ISO's to better answer your questions, unless you have some that don't require my reads.

[Venmar]

@TAM - Do you have any real defense other than "It's in my QT where you can't see it, and I am not going to re-say it here where you can. DUUURR"?

[TeChNoWC]

What is there not to get? The first bolded part made me just laugh out loud because it made no sense. Look at back at the early arguments OmNom had with Bitmap, and then look at his arguments with Junpei. If you look at them, you can clearly see that they are a Town vs Town debate. The attitude Junpei uses to attack OmNom is really aggressive, and he doesn't drop his guns, while OmNom does the same. How often do you see scum vs town debates like that? Never. If Junpei was bussing, then idk, but at the very least his pair should go tomorrow, not day. Then the underlined sentence is just ridiculous, and you cant be serious that you are going to use that to justify anything?

I can throw the same blame on everyone on the OmNom wagon and call them scum for wanting to get him lynched

, you can call me scum for wanting to lynch CitySnake. That comment holds no water, and I am surprised you made that comment.

I thought you would try and throw this back in my face.

Of course you can, that wasn't my point. YOU are the one calling them town based on this reasoning; I am not calling them scum for this reasoning (though Junpei's tunneling, yes).

Why don't you stop false-dichotomy critiquing me and explain why Junpei and Bit are town? Because you know what that sort of blatant statement reads to me? You don't have any defence of scum-buddy Junpei/Bitmap, but you wanna push a TAM/Tech lynch and get a perfect maf victory.

Luckily I predict this is not the case.

The bolded parts are not reasons to call him scum. You are using knowledge of the flip to blame him for doing something he didn't know he was. None of us knew if OmNom and CitySnake were town, I though Om was town and City was scum, Junpei thought Om was scum, so did you, so what gives?

Because none of us tunneled Om, except for Junpei and PM. And PM has contributed barely anything, so it's hard to analyse that as a scumtell for him.

How is tunneling not scummy? Explain.

- Not necessarily. If you and TAM are both somewhat likely to flip scum, I would prefer to bet my money on a lynch where I think either of the partners could flip scum. You are saying I should lynch PM because she is in my lover group and since i KNOW I am town, she is probably not. It's a fair assumption, but again, I know i am town, and I would rather aim at a pair where the possibility of a scum flip isn't just 50% but over 50%. Not to mention you seemed to want to lynch TAM/You in the beginning of this day, your 180 turn to make me change my course to PM is very interesting.

This is actually a good point and I concede to you on that one.

@Ven: 'town on town' is a weak defence. If that's how you feel, it's basically a gutread. I don't see any statistics that suggest big arguments are usually town dominated. Look at mini 1332, me and Om absolutely cluttered the thread with a massive argument and I was scum. Means nothing. Junpei's tactic makes perfect sense as scum in a setup like this. Bussing is deadly, perfect wins are easier. Limiting reads is great for scum in this setup, IMO.

Ven, this is where I stand on today. Kill TAM leading to my death, then when I flip town run with my reads please. I don't see scum as anyone but PM/TAM/Junpei, with PM being a lose end. If you can get an accurate read on PM tommorrow; well, put Junpei and him on the chopping block and I hope and pray you pick Junpei, because that's the way I am leaning.

If you give me my word you will rethink your read on Junpei tommorrow I am happy for a TAM lynch.

[Bitmap]

Techno's town. This is not how he plays scum imo. His scum play have a dash of WIFOM and AtE. Not a lot, but enough to taste it.

I'm thinking that TAM can be scummy because so far his reads on me have been influenced solely on the flip and changed dramatically after Om's flip. I'll get quotes up and everything tomorrow.

[TeChNoWC]

ou're recent questions and posts were actually a bit off in my opinion

Nothing is off about what I have said. I am keeping this game alive. Everybody else is going at lengths to active lurk and share minimal content (except for you, but I wish even you would contribute more), yet I am trying to push everyone to contribute with few results.

Point to everything that makes me look like scum. Let's bust this game open, shall we.

Show me that anger that you (supposedly) had over the Om lynch.

[The Acting Method]

I think I'm going to post these one at a time out of boredom. Tech, if you could repeat your questions for me so that I can answer the ones that I'm working on getting answers too.
And Ven, basically my reads were Citysnake/PM scumteam by process of elimination, because I considered Tech/Om/Venmar/Bitmap town and Junpei not much more than an overall null.

The big quote you keep referencing (and if I'm going back on whatever I said earlier I apologize because it's probably me trying to remember) means that PM is the only player I HADN'T HAD A CHANCE. I HAD an opportunity to get a read on Junpei other than null, I hadn't on PM capiche?
But here's Junpei. Next I have PM.
Junpei
Setup based discussion, Theory based discussion
78: Ummm. Okay, This is good. Least we are away from the first 7 posts.
80: And this post was needed why?
Okay likes the post from bitmap before it, announcing v/la.
Okay, This is interesting.
Meh, feels like Om is abusing his meta.
Okay...
Hmmmmm... The case is decent. And glad someone wrote out a detailed case.
Okay this reaction seems a bit defensive in 407.
Is this a town tell?
414: He was saying that either you or Bitmap is scum with me or PM.
I don't think it he did, what I think is more telling is that you assume PM and I are lovers during this spiel.

Okay pretty blah over all. There's a few things that make me go huh? but it could be a playstyle issue. Right now I'm leaning a Bitmap lynch over Junpei I would say.

[Venmar]

@Techno
- Tunneling isn't scummy, nor is it townie. It is a null tell because it can be effectively used by both of the alignments. Scum can use it to try and mislynch someone while avoiding contradicting or look like wagon hopping, and town can use it to focus down on one of their biggest scunreads. This is kind of on the doorstep of looking like WIFOM, because it could be a scum or town tell. Don't try to turn a null read into a scum read, I've seen a lot of players who tunnneled into players and then flip town, including myself.

- Why did you all of the sudden say I am mafia?

- Who do you think are possible scumpartners with PM? In addition, who do you think could be possible scumpartners with TAM?

[TeChNoWC]

@Ven: I'm attempting to explain how I find Junpei's tunneling scummy, particularly in this setup.

In a setup like this, I personally would think bussing takes a backseat. Launching at double-town pairs + providing minimal content so you are hard to lynch seems like the best play for scum, IMO (as long as they can pull it off). I think scum-Junpei is pulling it off beautifully. The only thing that throws a spanner in the works and makes me think Junpei MIGHT be town is his scumread on his lover partner. Though, I desperately want Junpei to respond with his fulls thoughts and reads etc.

Ven, in this setup I think the onus is more on explaining why you think a pair is town/town even more so over why you think someone is scum. It's a bold claim that can lead to disastrous results if incorrect. In this setup, having an incorrect scumread to lynch can still be beneficial if their partner flips scum. Town/town partner reads are more complex and dangerous.

And I don't think you are mafia. I am just letting you know I saw a viable way that you are, and I want to know what is with the townreads + the defence of anything Junpei/Bitmap. Can you not see how that looks like you and Junpei/Bitmap are scum together? If you were scum right now, you would likely want to towntell your buddy pair for an easy win.

At this stage I feel like all of TAM, Junpei and P could all be partners together. The scumreads today show weak attempts at pushing and I need more content. I'm leaning TAM/Junpei more though.

[PMysterious]

Okay, I got my reads with reasons

PMysterious- Town (Why would I not say I'm town)
The Acting Method- Null (I can't really say if you're town or scum yet)
Venmar- Town (Playing like a townie should)
Junpei- Null (Haven't seen much from him)
TeChNoWC- Null (Has questions for everyone)
Bitmap- Town (Really good at playing town so far.)

@Techno: I'll get to the questions. Don't worry.

[Venmar]

Omg, are you serious? No scum reads?

I'm so at a loss at who to lynch, Techno brought up some good points about my view of Junpei and Bitmap, but seriously I think we should be trying to figure out which of us is more likely to be the town / town pair and then win, and from my point of view Junpei and Bitmap are those two.

[Junpei]

Friend ruined my computer will be ready to play asap.

[PMysterious]

Omg, are you serious? No scum reads?

I'm so at a loss at who to lynch, Techno brought up some good points about my view of Junpei and Bitmap, but seriously I think we should be trying to figure out which of us is more likely to be the town / town pair and then win, and from my point of view Junpei and Bitmap are those two.

The thing is, we attack the Null reads. There could be any information that they give us. I'd prefer looking into TAH and Techno for information. I mean, 1 of them have to be scum.

[Venmar]

Thinking about this again, PM, in our QT said I am town and that Bitmap/Junpei are town as well, that we should pursue TAM / Techno. Kind of wondering why he put everyone but them as town...