Judge, Jury, and Executioner - Over

[IceGuy]

Vote Count

Knight of Cydonia (9): WrathChild, WrathChild, TheShadow, Nero Cain, vijay2vasandani, vijay2vasandani, Ser Panda, whispersilk, whispersilk
Nocmen (7): D3f3nd3r, Quilford, DoomYoshi, TheShadow, TheShadow, Nero Cain, vijay2vasandani

Gooner (4): Sir Bastion, Sir Bastion, DCLXVI, DCLXVI
TheShadow (2): Quilford, Quilford
StrangerCoug (2): Ser Panda, Nero Cain
whispersilk (2): Sir Bastion, guille2015
D3f3nd3r (2): Nocmen, DoomYoshi
guille2015 (2): Nocmen, DoomYoshi
Mastermind of Sin (2): guille2015, guille2015
WrathChild (2): StrangerCoug, StrangerCoug
vijay2vasandani (1): Nocmen

22

votes are currently not on a player.

Every player has

3

votes.
With

19

alive, it's

10

to hammer.
There are

57

votes in play,

0

of which are frozen, leaving

57

votes active.

Deadline is August 31st, noon CEST.

[D3f3nd3r]

MOD: DoomYoshi unvoted me, but KoC is voting me.

[IceGuy]

MOD: DoomYoshi unvoted me, but KoC is voting me.

I don't see that.

[D3f3nd3r]

I knew I had 3 votes, someone unvoted, then I had 2. I was expecting a vote from someone else. Sorry.

[Teleporting Speed Hippos]

Although I am very much in favour of Nocmen dying, scum will just send him to the judge again, and he won't be executed again. So it's a wasted vote. Guaranteed scum on there.

Initially, I was going to hammer KoC. But then I saw Defender's posts towards him, and instead, I feel the urge to

Vote: Defender x2

His comments to KoC seem forced (and initially didn't take into account the fact that KoC had outright claimed to have tried to pardon Thor), to the extent that I feel like Defender is part of a scumteam that have some sort of PR and have stitched KoC up and are dangling him in front of us as a mislynch. Basically I don't really see that as Defender bussing KoC and since Defender comes out the worse from that situation, I have to conclude that KoC is town.

v2v, Shadow and Nero all get scumpoints for being on both of these suspicious wagons.

Vote: Nero

He should know better.

[Sir Bastion]

Lynchings and killings are barbarian.

This game features an orderly judicial system.

Every day, the town selects three defendants in a democratic vote. The three defendants will be jailed by the sheriff at the end of the day and brought before the court.

Unfortunately, the mafia has not only infiltrated the town, but also the judicial system. Luckily, the judge is always guaranteed to be a law-abiding citizen, and the jury is still randomly selected.

However, the executioner is selected anew every night by a suspicious clerk, and the cases always seem to end up before the court in a particular order.

In a deliberation phase, one defendant each will be assigned to the judge, the jury and the executioner by the mafia. They will be given a defense statement by the defendant and are expected to return a verdict by the end of the deliberation phase. Both judge and executioner can freely decide to convict or acquit; for the jury, a vote will be held, with a majority required for conviction.

However, as the numbers dwindle, the judicial system will start to crumble. At first, there will not be enough citizens to fill a jury, and only judge and executioner remain.

Finally, as not even a judge and an executioner can be found in the town, vigilante justice makes a return.

It doesn't look like there was any other way for Thor to have been killed other than by the executioner. The only chance of a vig in the setup is when there is no longer enough players to make up a jury. I'm assuming that "killings" in the bolded section above would also apply to a SK as it obviously does to a vig and scum.

Perhaps I misread the original post, but I was under the impression that when the numbers dwindle the game shifts to the default lynch format of sort.

From the sign up thread:

Vigilante Justice
When there are four or less players, normal lynching mechanics apply, with no Night and no Deliberation Phase. There is one exception: If nobody was lynched, Mafia gets 36 hours to nominate a person to kill.

As for the existence of vigilantes/serial killers

It would make sense if the scum have as much control of the process that there would exist powers that could upset their control, but a direct vigilante might not make sense and a serial killer while possible seems like it would be very complicated to work and the kill makes little sense (especially considering thor was on the block) more likely is that someone used a power to alter the judgement.

Which seems to be a waste of effort/power for scum unless they felt that they were likely to be followed last night (+suspicion for doomyoshi I guess)

or perhaps it was a town power trying to protect thor by reversing the judgement and because he was voted innocent it flipped back to guilty

though it's more likely the first choice, scum felt under pressure from day 1 followers perhaps.

[guille2015]

That's why I say: that IF KoC isn't lying, then mafia has a way to override the executioner.

Why does it have to be the mafia?

Sure, someone in town could have that power, but I find it more likely that Mafia is at fault here.

[guille2015]

Since you can paraphrase the defendants plea, lets hear what they have had to say. KOC, Jury and Nocmen. What were the defendants pleas, paraphrased of course.

[D3f3nd3r]

Ok, here's Arugula's defense statement.

He told the executioner he'd be a free townkill.

He told the judge he knows the judge is town, he was a VT who screwed up regarding Vijay's "claim" and got hammered for it. He admits bad play, but says he is a VT.

He told the jury that there are scum there who really wanted that mislynch. He says he has no other way to prove he's town other than the middle part of his statement to the judge.

[StrangerCoug]

Its totally acceptable for to come out and say that he didn't make a mistake.

I knew that; the point I was making is that the mod was that WrathChild cannot use mod statements to implicate Knight of Cydonia.

The bold seems stupid.

Stupidity is not a scumtell.

VOTE: Nero Cain
I've seen better cases from you on me than this crap.

[Knight of Cydonia]

...Wow. So the mod says "I'm not going to tell you any more about the setup" and you folks interpret that as "SCUM HAVE CLEARLY GOT NO PRS DIE KOC DIE".
Whatever. I'm done trying to persuade a bunch of retards. I pardoned Thor, and he died for reasons beyond my control. 3 double votes on my wagon take me to L-4 real quickly and a bunch of lurking VIs jump on the wagon... guess I know how Thor feels now?

Speaking of which, his statement can be paraphrased as "You're probably a scum executioner or a town one who is going to be set up in some way, either way I'm already fucked, even if you're sold on me being obv. town. Just do whatever you have to do."

[Knight of Cydonia]

Also, this is something that struck me while going through the last couple of pages, and it's also the last thing I'm going to say on the subject.

Nocmen was given to the Judge. The judge thought it was wise to keep him alive. Since Mafia did not know who the judge was, they'd probably not send one of their own to the judge. Baring some WIFOM of course. For the moment I will refrain from voting for Nocmen, until better evidence is set forth.

@KOC: If you are not lying, then this implies that mafia has the power to override the decision of the executioner. I don't know what to think of this at the moment. Your decision is consistent with your day 1 views, albeit a little since you rarely had an opinion on Thor. If mafia has this power, then they will always assign town to it. Thus completely negating Shadows and Axelrod's (is it?) PR. Another deliberation might clear things up. I wonder if mafia can select the same person as the executioner.

I'm gonna to go into theorycrafting here, and I understand if anyone wants to ignore this; but I doubt the scum have this power permanently. They already have the ability to select which member of the defendants goes where, with all the WIFOM that creates in the town's thinking process; and I would be surprised if they were to be excluded from Jury duty, as their constant absence would be noted amongst it's members each night if this were the case. Giving them the ability to completely over-ride one of the selections every night on top of this, and with the existing PRs we know about being purely Executioner trackers presumably designed to force those picked as Executioner to admit to their actions, would be... a decision I wouldn't make as a mod with some experience modding both standard and bastard Theme games. I also wouldn't be entirely surprised if the scum recognised both the limited nature of this power and the eminent nature of both Thor and myself - Thor as a Scummie winner and myself as a long-term player. They could well have chosen to set me (or for that matter, any other strong player who came under pressure yesterday) up after powering through the Thor lynch, thus removing 2 potential town figureheads in one fell swoop.

tl;dr if you think scum don't have some PRs, even if they're limited in how often they can use them,

you are a fucking retard.

And if you think I would genuinely come out as a scum executioner and claim pardoning Thor and there being some kind of interference, before any kind of statement from one of our PRs and under no pressure to do so whatsoever,

you are a fucking retard

.
And if you are going to take "I'm not telling you any more than what you have in your PMs" as "There are definitely not any PRs that can change Judge/Jury/Executioner decisions in this game but obviously the town get a bunch of PRs huehuehue" then

you are a gorram fucking retard.

[Ser Panda]

The bold seems stupid.

Stupidity is not a scumtell.

VOTE: Nero Cain
I've seen better cases from you on me than this crap.

Really? So what was the point of this exercise?

Okay...what was your thought process before killing Thor?

Are you illiterate?

VOTE: D3f3nd3r

Also, am I the only person that sees the KoC thing in a different light? I am seeing it as scum had a role that can overwrite what the Exe's decision. I mean, isn't it pretty obv when the scum choose the Exe and the scum choose who goes where, then they would pick someone who thought Thor was town and send Thor to them, so they can pardon Thor, and then they can reverse the decision, so they can

guarantee

a Thor kill? Esp considering Thor wasn't likely to ever get lynched again?

If KoC is scum, what was the motivation behind claiming right away? Geez...

[whispersilk]

UNVOTE: Koc
UNVOTE: Koc

@KoC:

It says it quite clearly - No lynchings, no killings. What non-killing power roles do envisage scum having that could have resulted in Thor's death?

[Knight of Cydonia]

UNVOTE: Koc
UNVOTE: Koc

@KoC:

It says it quite clearly - No lynchings, no killings. What non-killing power roles do envisage scum having that could have resulted in Thor's death?

Well, uh, given what happened to me last night, some kind of limited-use "guarantee Player X will be lynched tonight regardless of Executioner choice" thing, for a start. Duh.

[StrangerCoug]

The bold seems stupid.

Stupidity is not a scumtell.

VOTE: Nero Cain
I've seen better cases from you on me than this crap.

Really? So what was the point of this exercise?

Okay...what was your thought process before killing Thor?

Are you illiterate?

VOTE: D3f3nd3r

Knight of Cydonia make it very clear that he

PARDONED

Thor665 and didn't kill him. That is consistent with what I've seen out of him. Asking if D3f3nd3r was illiterate may admittedly be insulting, but I would expect town to be a little more attentive than this. He clearly paid attention to the facts that Knight of Cydonia was the executioner, that Thor665 was sent to him, and that the latter is now dead. D3f3nd3r, however, didn't look very closely at the executioner claim—just extracted the claim and didn't read KoC's version of the turn of events.

[IceGuy]

Vote Count

Knight of Cydonia (7): WrathChild, WrathChild, TheShadow, Nero Cain, vijay2vasandani, vijay2vasandani, Ser Panda
Nocmen (7): D3f3nd3r, Quilford, DoomYoshi, TheShadow, TheShadow, Nero Cain, vijay2vasandani

Gooner (4): Sir Bastion, Sir Bastion, DCLXVI, DCLXVI
D3f3nd3r (4): Nocmen, DoomYoshi, Teleporting Speed Hippos, Teleporting Speed Hippos
TheShadow (2): Quilford, Quilford
StrangerCoug (2): Ser Panda, Nero Cain
whispersilk (2): Sir Bastion, guille2015
guille2015 (2): Nocmen, DoomYoshi
Mastermind of Sin (2): guille2015, guille2015
WrathChild (2): StrangerCoug, StrangerCoug
Nero Cain (2): Teleporting Speed Hippos, StrangerCoug
vijay2vasandani (1): Nocmen

20

votes are currently not on a player.

Every player has

3

votes.
With

19

alive, it's

10

to hammer.
There are

57

votes in play,

0

of which are frozen, leaving

57

votes active.

Deadline is August 31st, noon CEST.

[whispersilk]

The bold seems stupid.

Stupidity is not a scumtell.

VOTE: Nero Cain
I've seen better cases from you on me than this crap.

Really? So what was the point of this exercise?

Okay...what was your thought process before killing Thor?

Are you illiterate?

VOTE: D3f3nd3r

Knight of Cydonia make it very clear that he

PARDONED

Thor665 and didn't kill him. That is consistent with what I've seen out of him. Asking if D3f3nd3r was illiterate may admittedly be insulting, but I would expect town to be a little more attentive than this. He clearly paid attention to the facts that Knight of Cydonia was the executioner, that Thor665 was sent to him, and that the latter is now dead. D3f3nd3r, however, didn't look very closely at the executioner claim—just extracted the claim and didn't read KoC's version of the turn of events.

Doesn't that make defender more likely to be town?

[guille2015]

UNVOTE: Koc
UNVOTE: Koc

@KoC:

It says it quite clearly - No lynchings, no killings. What non-killing power roles do envisage scum having that could have resulted in Thor's death?

It does not necessarily have to be a killing role. As a matter of fact, I find it highly likely that it is not a killing role. It is either that KoC is lying or there is a PR that overrides the decision. I find the latter more likely in this case and probably in hands of scum. If, as KOC says, it is limited, then last night was a particularly good use of the power.

[StrangerCoug]

The bold seems stupid.

Stupidity is not a scumtell.

VOTE: Nero Cain
I've seen better cases from you on me than this crap.

Really? So what was the point of this exercise?

Okay...what was your thought process before killing Thor?

Are you illiterate?

VOTE: D3f3nd3r

Knight of Cydonia make it very clear that he

PARDONED

Thor665 and didn't kill him. That is consistent with what I've seen out of him. Asking if D3f3nd3r was illiterate may admittedly be insulting, but I would expect town to be a little more attentive than this. He clearly paid attention to the facts that Knight of Cydonia was the executioner, that Thor665 was sent to him, and that the latter is now dead. D3f3nd3r, however, didn't look very closely at the executioner claim—just extracted the claim and didn't read KoC's version of the turn of events.

Doesn't that make defender more likely to be town?

No it does not. I would be OK with D3f3nd3r rejecting Knight of Cydonia's story, but that is not what happened. Now that he's reread, I'm not as bent on D3f3nd3r being scum, but people cherry-picking doesn't make me very happy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

There was no good case on Arugula to begin with. Anyone who thought he had a chance of being scum is officially an idiot.

Vote: WrathChild, WrathChild

[Sir Bastion]

There was no good case on Arugula to begin with. Anyone who thought he had a chance of being scum is officially an idiot.

Nice of you to air such thoughts before he was lynched...

oh wait.

You never made a comment on the arugula wagon until today, despite it happening so early on day 1. Not even a *I think Arugula is town* or *the wagon on argula is stupid* though you gave such a comment for Thor here

If you thought it was such a bad case to begin with and blatant he wasnt scum, then why didnt you say so at all yesterday? Numerous times right up to the end players said they still saw Arugula as scummy, so it's not as if you expected him to pass through the jury without incident.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Didn't occur to me. Kinda figured it was obvious at that point. The lynch on Thor seemed more scum-driven though, since town players are often suckers for VI lynches. After the fact, though, everyone and their mother should have known Arugula was town. Didn't think I needed to point it out.

[Sir Bastion]

idn't occur to me. Kinda figured it was obvious at that point

at what point?

let me stress that you

never

made a comment on the arugula wagon. As in not when it was just freshly hammered or hours before the deadline. You outright ignored it.

The lynch on Thor seemed more scum-driven though, since town players are often suckers for VI lynches.

So you think there was no scum intention behind the arugula lynch? You just like repeating today that it was a stupid lynch for your own smug self satisfaction?

After the fact, though, everyone and their mother should have known Arugula was town. Didn't think I needed to point it out.

Yeah we'll just ignore that on the last 2 pages of day 1 both KOC and Defender pointed out either scummy actions by arugula or said they thought he was scummy. That might have been a hint to perhaps give some input into the case.

No, you'll just wait til day 2 to get all righteous over the wagon after the sod has hanged.

And just to keep things clear, I did think he was scummy day 1, I wasn't on his initial wagon but I voted for him to hang based more on his lack of activity post hammer then the actual actions leading it up to it. based on my own personal experience of being a hammered town in a long twilight and from comparing his actions to thor in the same situation.

[AurorusVox]

Doesn't that make defender more likely to be town?

No, because if the "scum-plan" was to frame KoC for executing Thor, defender would want to come straight in and point the finger.

MoS is being a jerk but probTown. If you're gonna white knight, you make sure you do it before the townflip.