Newbie 1,276 (Game over!)

[Paschendale]

It is not baseless. You did something that looked like distancing. Whether you intended to or not, it still looks like that. I didn't even necessarily say you were distancing, only that you did something that looks like distancing. We're still on page 2. There's not going to be any super duper cases yet. They're built from a bunch of actions. Congratz, you have one mark against you. If you want to rebut it, go ahead, but you need to provide more than "nuh uh!" Why are you so defensive over this? You could laugh it off, but instead you're devoting more time to complaining about one comment than any of the relevant things that are going on. You brought up scripted looking interactions. You said my interactions looked scripted (without any evidence). Sucks for you that while my interactions apparently cannot be proven to look scripted, yours can. Shared jokes from a previous game have no place in this game. Saying you planned something before you got into this game, that's suspicious. It's counterproductive at best, and downright scummy at worst.

Later on, MissMaggot, when this comes back to bite you, you can kick yourself for making a big deal out of it when I didn't.

[Wiibox3]

@ Venrob - take a chill pill dude. The day has hardly begun.

[MissMaggot]

By "did something that looked like distancing" do you mean "placed a vote"? Because in that case we're all guilty here. My response wasn't a "nuh-uh", it was exactly as I said here, that the same could be accused of anyone. The comment about the scripted interaction was an observation. I tend to state any gut feelings that I have early on so that I can remember them later, and also so that if I'm not the only one with such a feeling that others will speak up about it too. You could say I'm being defensive, but I say I'm being thorough. I'm a very passionate person, and of you haven't learned that yet, it'll be drilled into your skull by the end of this game. Making a big thing out of little things is essentially how this game is played, and the fact that you're against that confuses me. I've already gotten more information out of this interaction than I have from any other yet, and yet you seem to fond it insignifigant. Stating that I planned my vote if it was supposed to be an act of deception wouldn't make any sense. And you are not who decides where I do and don't make jokes, so you can back yourself on up.

All other feelings I have about you aside, that last comment is the worst. The way that it's worded has you looking convinced that I'm scum, and that this WILL come back to bite me. I think that you're acting this way because you're afraid that it might come back to bite you instead. With that in mind, I will

Vote: Paschendale

.

[Paschendale]

Sweetie, let me give you a little SE advice. This is a trap that a lot of newer players can fall into. When you're town, you genuinely mean your arguments. It's 100% honest. That doesn't mean it always sounds like what you want to say, but you still mean it. A mindset that is easy to fall into is the idea that anyone who criticizes you, since you're an honest townie, must be scum. That's simply not true. That's why most day 1 lynches are of townies. Most of this game is townies arguing with and accusing each other. If you assume that everyone who finds your actions suspicious as scum, then you will find yourself suspecting everyone. Townies make mistakes. You made one with your notion about scripted interaction, and possibly made one with you reasoning for your RVS vote, but that's debatable. I think I'd be making a mistake in pursuing a lynch on you... which is why I didn't vote for you.

But trust me, a lot of townies are going to suspect you for things you don't think you're doing. And they're going to vote for you. And they're going to lynch you. If you go after each and every one, most likely you'll end up just killing scumhunting townies, and not actually finding scum. Examine people who are doing things that could actually hurt the town, like trying to keep information from the town, or voting for flawed reasons, not just attacking people who are talking about you.

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE COUNT

Nekoko (3): Wiibox3, ewo2, Venrob
Paschendale (1): Nekoko, MissMaggot
Venrob (2): Cheery Dog, Paschendale
Wiibox3 (1): nhammen
Not voting (1): McLucien18

With

9

players alive, it takes

5

players to lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2012-09-09 10:13:01).

[Wiibox3]

@ Paschendale - Giving SE advice to us newbies is nice, but that last post was a downright scummy way of doing it. Thanks for the info, but jeez.

[MissMaggot]

First off, don't call me sweetie. Especially when you've hardly had a taste.

Secondly, the reasoning for my vote wasn't because you found me suspicious. It was why you found me suspicious. I would have made that move even if you had gone after another player in that manner. A very smart and unfortunate SE in my previous game explained that it's best not to analyze what people say, but rather why they say it. It's something that's stuck with me pretty strongly.

[nhammen]

I feel that the current Pasch and Neko interaction is a bit too scripted for my liking.

And trying to start up competing wagons right off the bat to distance yourself from someone, and claiming that it's all based on a past game isn't?

To be fair, I was the one that started the competing wagons.

Not sure how competing wagons could tell us much at this point. And since one of the wagons was for me and the other one was for a person that voted for me, it didn't make sense to vote for either at this point.

Competing wagons now tell us a lot later.

You point about me saying I didn't want to make an OMGUS vote could be scum motivated. Sure but you probably would have said the same thing had I voted for MM, so... What's your point?

No I wouldn't have. The reason it seems scum motivated is because your reason for not voting MissMaggot was to avoid the attention that comes from OMGUS. Scum want to avoid attention more than town.

Also, why are you uninterested into playing into the flavor of the game? If it's fluff, then you should call out the Mod for adding flavor in the first place.

Flavor isn't a problem. Flavor instead of content is. Asking other players to join in giving flavor instead of content is a BIG problem. There is a thread in the Mafia Discussion forum talking about roleplaying if you want more information. But remember that you cannot post about this game there until this game ends.

At the moment my top scumreads are Wii and Nekoko, far and away. Wii's fluff post seems particularly scummy - it fell right after pressure started to come onto him. Additionally, this post seems too defensive:

I didn't want to look all OMGUS. lol. Since it's random voting time I chose Nekoko.

Nekoko's uneccessary explanation for her random vote is in the same vein.

Neither Nekoko nor Wii supported wagons, which are essential to early play.

I understand this is a newbie game, but these seem like newbie mistakes, so it makes sense.

Maggot seems town to me, her response to a wagon forming on her (albeit a small one) was good, so I'm moving my vote.

UNVOTE: Maggot
VOTE: Nekoko

Your scumreads just happen to match the two people with random wagons on them? Seems a little bit scummy. But not much yet. Why choose Nekoko over Wiibox?

Your argument doesn't make sense.

I did exactly the same thing in the last game

Well, this is either town, or you are scum intentionally faking your town meta. However it does reveal that Paschen's case on you is null.

[nhammen]

Well im late. Seems 2 good places to put my vote, both ill have an explaination for...

IC bw, just for being an IC. IC makes good town, but much better scum!

RQS starter bw.
RQS-RANDOM QUESTIONING STAGE
RQS can help the maf in more ways than are obvious.
1.Questions on playstyle for one: maf might look at their answer, maybe find something off from how they are playing? People play different with different roles. Maf might sniff out a power role!
2.Answers containing accidental softclaims:
Not often, but ive seen RQS with an unintentional softclaim, then the maf killed them. Doctor died that way.

Out of these BW's, i go with 2.

Vote: Nekoko

THIS IS AN L-1 VOTE.
if i counted right.

The IC bandwagon idea is dumb, but not scummy. There are two reasons. One is it is premature. You should wait until there is at least some indication I am scum. Without no such indication, this would be equivalent to a random lynch, and then on D2 you would be in the same situation with no information. Two is that a town IC can be quite helpful, and an IC, by simple probability, is more likely to be town.

Your other idea for a wagon is also bad, because it has been established that this is Nekoko's town meta. Now this could be faked, but it does mean that it cannot be used as a scumtell. But, I agree that there are multiple reasons why it can be bad play. However, I prefer to find scum rather than bad play.

RQS is fucking idiotic.

Do you believe idiotic=scummy?

[nhammen]

McLucien18 hasn't even posted in thread yet. He confirmed but never posted. He should be getting a prod in 6 hours if this continues.

[MissMaggot]

Yeah, and he's been online since the game began, which means that he's aware that we've started.

[Paschendale]

Do you believe idiotic=scummy?

In my experience, idiotic usually means town. Town are never 100% certain of their theories, so there's always room for error. Scum know if what they're saying is correct. If they do something idiotic, it's on purpose... so it's usually not that idiotic.

[Nekoko]

Well, this is either town, or you are scum intentionally faking your town meta. However it does reveal that Paschen's case on you is null.

Exactly and it's the same thing with venrob

IC, by simple probability, is more likely to be town

Careful there. Everyone here has the same probability as to be town as you are.
But yeah both of venrob's case doesn't make sense.

[Nekoko]

Why are you now condoning starting early wagons when you were

just

defending it?

Dodging that.

...

Seriously? I said you were suspect based on the reason you gave for starting the wagons, not for the act itself.

Everyone w/ common sense would immediately detect
that it's a random reason to a random vote.

Of course my vote will be switched to suspicious
players eventually but now it seems you're one now.

Just like with MissMaggot above. The reason given was suspect. You said you don't like random votes, and then gave a vote for a completely random reason. The contradiction, not the action itself, was suspect.

If I understand this clearly, your reason for voting me and suspecting me is the same as MissMaggot?
But then later you said MissMaggot is an honest townie so that's why you didn't vote her. Is that correct?

[Cheery Dog]

If I understand this clearly, your reason for voting me and suspecting me is the same as MissMaggot?
[/quote]
While it's not me you're talking to, I can see you're not applying this in context.
If both yours and missmaggot's votes were reasonless then you would be able to use this as case material on Paschendale.
However it is that both of you used completely different reasoning on your votes, he found both of them to be suspicious.
You need to look below the surface to understand how they are different reasons for what appears to you to be the same thing.

[Cheery Dog]

FUCKING HELL ITS A FUCKING D1 RVS! EITHER I NO VOTE OR I VOTE! WHAT THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO DO IN RVS!

If you look above your first post, we'd already started talking about more stuff than just giving out random votes. Therefore we had already gone through RVS and you placing someone on L-1 with an RVS vote isn't the best of times.

Your IC wagon idea may have worked okay in the true RVS on page 1, but even suggesting it on page 2 is rather scummy and calling it a BW when noone had even voted there yet. 1 vote does not make much of a bandwagon, as a one-man-band doesn't need a wagon.

[Nekoko]

While it's not me you're talking to, I can see you're not applying this in context.
If both yours and missmaggot's votes were reasonless then you would be able to use this as case material on Paschendale.
However it is that both of you used completely different reasoning on your votes, he found both of them to be suspicious.
You need to look below the surface to understand how they are different reasons for what appears to you to be the same thing.

I said this because as I already posted a while ago, I did the same thing in my previous game as townie
so it's basically a null tell. That's the way I play. So it doesn't make sense to me.

But come to think of it, I shouldn't expect him to look at my previous games.

[Paschendale]

If I understand this clearly, your reason for voting me and suspecting me is the same as MissMaggot?
But then later you said MissMaggot is an honest townie so that's why you didn't vote her. Is that correct?

No, not correct at all. The only thing about your situations that is similar is that I suspected them because of the circumstances around your action, as opposed to just the action itself.

And technically, I didn't say that MissMaggot was an honest townie. I said that she is doing something that honest townies do. That's not a 100% endorsement. But taking things really personally like that tends to be something that townies do. I do it sometimes, and only when I'm town. At this point, I think she is probably town. But I'm obviously not 100% sure. I don't know her alignment. I only know my own.

[Wiibox3]

I think it's about time that McLucien18 is prodded, he hasn't posted once yet and it's been more than 72 hours since the game began.

[ewo2]

Honestly after rereading wiibox, it seems like he's just an inexperienced player, not necessarily scum. His RV in post 16 contains a vote-tag mistake, and his desire to implement flavor seems more genuine in an iso-read. His very first post plays into the flavor of the game as well. As a new player I can understand how he'd think players would pay more attention to flavor when it's really just something fun for the mod in a normal game like this one.

UNVOTE:

Cheerydog has been consistently hunting scum in each of his posts.

Maggot is on one side of a debate with Pasch, and I have agreed with more or less everything she's said. Pasch has become my biggest candidate for scum for the following reasons:

I feel that the current Pasch and Neko interaction is a bit too scripted for my liking.

And trying to start up competing wagons right off the bat to distance yourself from someone, and claiming that it's all based on a past game isn't?

I think Pasch is making a bigger deal out of Maggot's RV than is actually warranted. It seems like Maggot made it clear it was a principle vote (mostly a joke, it seemed) and a second vote on a player is starting a wagon (not a “competing wagon” at that stage because there was no other wagon going), which is productive, even in Pasch's own opinion.

Hi everyone! This is my third game in the forums and ever since my first game here,
I became fond of the Random Questioning Stage. It is a way for people to talk more
about substantial things than voting people randomly. So here goes...

Okay, Nekoko likes that RVS isn't just random and wasteful. It brings out meaningful things.

And since I don't go for no-lynches, I will always try to vote the most suspicious player.
Since the day is still young, here is the random vote

VOTE: Paschendale

Right... RVS shouldn't be completely random, and yet here is a random vote. On someone who hasn't even posted yet.

For some reason Paschendale reminds me of
classical game so that's why I voted you

For a really random reason. Saying one thing and doing another is pretty suspicious. I didn't even base my vote on this originally, but looking back, it looks like laying groundwork for getting away with shoddy logic later on.

This is, again, making more of something than there is.

If I understand this clearly, your reason for voting me and suspecting me is the same as MissMaggot?
But then later you said MissMaggot is an honest townie so that's why you didn't vote her. Is that correct?

No, not correct at all. The only thing about your situations that is similar is that I suspected them because of the circumstances around your action, as opposed to just the action itself.

And technically, I didn't say that MissMaggot was an honest townie. I said that she is doing something that honest townies do. That's not a 100% endorsement. But taking things really personally like that tends to be something that townies do. I do it sometimes, and only when I'm town. At this point, I think she is probably town. But I'm obviously not 100% sure. I don't know her alignment. I only know my own.

This is one of a few wishy-washy posts of Pasch's where he won't commit to an earlier statement. He's been inconsistent all along and won't stand behind what he says.

VOTE: Pasch

venrob is MASSIVELY overreacting to criticisms of his very scummy posts. I dislike his proposal of wagoning an IC just for being an IC – it seems like something scum would want to do to possibly wipe a player that would be a challenge. Plus, nhammen has been nothing but helpful thus far and has not given any indication of being scum. Also, putting a player at L-1 this early in a newbie game is REALLY bad move. Venrob is my #2 candidate for scum.

Wii has become null for me after a reread. Nekoko hasn't done much to change my position.

In response to me placing a vote on one of the two wagoned players, that was the whole point.

My reads are:

Town: Cheery dog, Maggot,
Null: wii, nhammen, McLucien
Scum: Pasch, venrob, nekoko

[Paschendale]

I'm not being wishy washy. When I make a statement, I'll stand by it. I'm just ensuring that no one reads into things and assumes I've made statements that I haven't. I'm being very clear with my position.

Ewo, I only really made a single comment about MissMaggot. She then pursued me, and I fought back. Keep in mind, this all started with her saying that my posts looked scripted, without any justification. This is a newbie game. There was no night 0 phase in this game. There is literally no way that scum could have scripted an interaction without cheating. Her allegation is 100% impossible to be correct. Since the role PMs went out for this game, no one should have been talking about it outside this thread. But then she had revealed that her vote WAS based on interactions in a previous game. That's a little shady. Is she projecting onto me so that no one will see what she's done? Maybe. But this all began with an accusation from her that was not only baseless (and she never even offered any evidence to support it), but was literally impossible.

You want to disagree with my vote against Nekoko, that's fine, but apparently you think she's scummy as well. But there was nothing overblown about my response to MissMaggot. She made a baseless attack on me that, thought I don't think she intended it this way, also accused me of cheating. The emotional reaction coupled with the implications of her attack suggest to me that she didn't really think it through very hard. That feels town to me, though it is not good town play. I could be wrong. She could be scum. But there's not enough evidence yet to support lynching her.

Nekoko has acted similarly (both of them suddenly deciding I looked scummy because I raised suspicions of them), but not as emotionally. MissMaggot's outrage feels genuine, though misplaced. Nekoko's not so much. But neither one of them merit scrutiny like the hole that Venrob dug himself into.

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE COUNT

Nekoko (2): Wiibox3, Venrob
Paschendale (3): Nekoko, MissMaggot, ewo2
Venrob (2): Cheery Dog, Paschendale
Wiibox3 (1): nhammen
Not voting (1): McLucien18

With

9

players alive, it takes

5

players to lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2012-09-09 10:13:01).

McLucien18 is prodded.

[StrangerCoug]

Posting content after you are lynched but before I lock the thread for the day has been legalized.

[Wiibox3]

Paschendale is starting to look scummy from his last post. His argument with MM didn't really spur much of an opinion in me before, but now I am starting to watch him more closely.

As for the carry over from last game you can see where it comes from yourself:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 4#p4209164
If you read that post by her, you can see why she started the RVS by voting for me. I would have been surprised if she didn't.

Also his last post seems like it is overly filled with breadcrumb. Setting up an argument against MM a few days before he actually pursues it. When he does, he can point back to that post and say see, I already had my doubts on Day 1.

I have considered changing my vote to him, but I don't want to put him at L1 so early in the day, especially since McLucien hasn't checked in yet. We don't want an accidental hammer so early in the day.

[Paschendale]

Don't be fooled, Wiibox. 2 of the 3 votes on me are nothing more than OMGUS.