Newbie 1,276 (Game over!)

[ewo2]

Weak reasoning is enough to abandon the read Ewo has been so intent on before? That feels like opportunism to me. I feel fairly confident in my vote on Ewo.

That and the fact that I flubbed my case on nh badly enough that it's clear there's no pursuing it at this stage in the day. We have to settle on a lynch and I highly doubt I'm swaying enough votes to nh based on my case despite my lingering suspicion that nh is scum.

@Jason - as I have explained I left my vote on nekoko because I thought it was too early for wii to be at L-1 when some players hadn't even posted yet.

Also, I think it's hard to defend the argument that I've just followed popular wagons when I've made several cases - I haven't just switched my votes to BW.

@Cheery - What surprised me was that nh's vote was still on me despite what I considered scummier things to have happened to that stage in the game. I wanted him to defend his vote being on me rather than another player.

@City - "not scum" might have been a better way of categorizing nh to that point in the game. But to me that's the distinction between "not guilty" and "innocent", which for the purposes of the court means he's clear of charges. I didn't suspect him as scum at that stage, so by default he'd have to be town - null to me simply means he's not strongly read enough to be confirmed as town in my mind. You've re-asked me the same question about not commenting on nh in that post and I don't have more of an answer for you than I did before, not sure what you're looking for or why it's relevant to my current reads.

I have yet to see an IC who does mention that in the beginning. Plus, do you think nham explained everything there was to explain in these posts? Yes, nham was more thorough on RVS/RQS than the other ICs I've seen around. But pre-game scumchat is hardly ever brought up in games!

Of course I wasn't expecting him to get into that in his first posts. The post in question is the specific post when he asks the mod about day one scumchat - he didn't add anything other than the question to the mod, when, based on his previous elaborations, I'd have expected an interjection from him explaining that it's been unheard of thus far in his newbie games for scum not to be able to chat in pregame.

I would like to hear more from MM and I want to hear from Johnny as well.

[ewo2]

Also awaiting wii's reaction to the recent votes. At the moment my read on him is still null and the jambecca vote is totally legit in my opinion, jambecca was actively refusing to contribute and posting to let us know he was doing so. It is true however that wii's contributions have been limited and sparse thus far and he's done his best to stay out of the light.

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE COUNT

ewo2 (3): nhammen, Paschendale, JohnnyFarrar
JohnnyFarrar (1): ewo2
Wiibox3 (2): JasonWazza, Cheery Dog
Not voting (3): CityElectric, MissMaggot, Wiibox3

With

9

players alive, it takes

5

players to lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2012-09-09 10:13:01).

[CityElectric]

@City - "not scum" might have been a better way of categorizing nh to that point in the game. But to me that's the distinction between "not guilty" and "innocent", which for the purposes of the court means he's clear of charges. I didn't suspect him as scum at that stage, so by default he'd have to be town - null to me simply means he's not strongly read enough to be confirmed as town in my mind. You've re-asked me the same question about not commenting on nh in that post and I don't have more of an answer for you than I did before, not sure what you're looking for or why it's relevant to my current reads.

Then. Why. Didn't. You. Say. That. AT. FIRST!? To be honest, I don't see a difference between innocent and not guilty (but English isn't my first language, so... Explain?). However, I do see a difference between 'not scum' and town, simply because 'not scum' can indicate null. It's a subtle difference, but it's there.

Also, I'm not looking for something relevant to your current reads, but something relevant to MY current reads. And I'm really not satisfied.

I have yet to see an IC who does mention that in the beginning. Plus, do you think nham explained everything there was to explain in these posts? Yes, nham was more thorough on RVS/RQS than the other ICs I've seen around. But pre-game scumchat is hardly ever brought up in games!

Of course I wasn't expecting him to get into that in his first posts. The post in question is the specific post when he asks the mod about day one scumchat - he didn't add anything other than the question to the mod, when, based on his previous elaborations, I'd have expected an interjection from him explaining that it's been unheard of thus far in his newbie games for scum not to be able to chat in pregame.

I doubt a lack of elaboration for a mod question is scummy. Yes, he's been thorough on other posts, but I read nham as someone who wants to get his facts right, and thus doesn't elaborate on his fact-checking. Simply, because he doesn't know whether he's got that particular fact right or wrong.

I'm not yet convinced of ewo's townieness, but I doubt his lynch will be going through. Meaning Wii is next on the list for a good round of question asking. Lemme start with one. Wii, what have you got to say about the current suspicion on you?

[MissMaggot]

Way much to read and way too little time. Continued lack of a laptop makes playing optimally nearly impossible as well.

Mod: I would like to be replaced.

[ewo2]

@City - 'not guilty' simply means you aren't proven to be guilty, or in other words, there isn't enough evidence to convict you - it's not saying you didn't commit the crime, it's saying the evidence presented has failed to meet the burden of proof and therefore you haven't been proven guilty (as in the US court system you are considered innocent until you're proven guilty). As you noted, it's similar to the difference between scum and town - there's a middleground, but nh hadn't proven himself scum yet (and I assume everyone's town until they act scummy since probability suggests it).

What is the deal with replacements in this game? Is this the norm for newbie games?

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: I would like to be replaced.

On it.

[Paschendale]

What is the deal with replacements in this game? Is this the norm for newbie games?

In an earlier newbie game I was in, only 4 of the starting 9 were in at the end, and at least one slot replaced twice. It seems to be the norm, yes.

As to the innocent/not guilty thing. Innocent means leaning town, not guilty means not leaning scum. Assuming everyone starts out with a null read, one or two suspect actions may not be enough to really make someone lean scum. They're certainly not town leaning, but they're not really scummy. Hence, not guilty. It's a nuance of the American legal system (and others) that is well known to English speakers.

[StrangerCoug]

HerrRudi replaces MissMaggot.

[HerrRudi]

Hey folks. Gonna call it a night now but I plan on doing a solid read through and posting sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening as a heads up

[JohnnyFarrar]

had the intent of catching up today, but I'm unreasonably tired so I'll talk tomorrow.

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery - What surprised me was that nh's vote was still on me despite what I considered scummier things to have happened to that stage in the game. I wanted him to defend his vote being on me rather than another player.

Then why didn't you highlight some of these other scummier things?
You asked what he thought of venrob and got an answer of null, so who else should his vote have been on?

I'm not yet convinced of ewo's townieness, but I doubt his lynch will be going through.

You mentioned ewo in your replace in post as your biggest scumread (scum-leaning null), so what has happened that has changed that?
and what makes you doubt the lynch will go through? It's still the leading wagon at this stage.

[CityElectric]

Well, there goes another question unanswered... Thanks MM.

I'm not yet convinced of ewo's townieness, but I doubt his lynch will be going through.

You mentioned ewo in your replace in post as your biggest scumread (scum-leaning null), so what has happened that has changed that?
and what makes you doubt the lynch will go through? It's still the leading wagon at this stage.

Well, everyone seems to be moving away from him. Don't get me wrong, I still think he's scum, but at that point I was out of attack angles. And I still am. I'm also not satisfied with the answers he gave me, but I doubt I'll get something better out of him.

Actually, now I think about it... ewo hasn't really felt the pressure of L-1...

VOTE: ewo2

Now, can you please tell me why you didn't say 'not scum' at first? 'Cause it looks like a massive backpedal to me right now.

Welcome HerrRudi!

Also, since deadline is rapidly approaching, who would be your preferred lynch at the moment and why? Mine is ewo, and I think my reasons are pretty clear.

[Cheery Dog]

Well, everyone seems to be moving away from him.

I'm pretty sure I was the only person that moved away from him and was the last (besides you since you hadn't come in yet) of the people who claimed to have found anything scummy.
I just looked at what other people are looking at - Jason and Paschendale certainly weren't moving away.
I don't see nhammen's posts as moving away either. (seeing as he hasn't moved his vote)
Wiibox, Johnny & MissMaggot haven't been active enough to have shown any movement either way

How could everyone therefore be moving away from ewo?

I think you might be agreeing with my points a little too much..

[Cheery Dog]

EDWODP: Include Jason in the brackets since he hadn't come in then either, I wrote that sentence before looking to see if I could find why you thought 'everyone' was moving away.
Going with where you both said you found scummy stuff though, had you been in the game earlier I probably would still have been the last to find anything.

[CityElectric]

Well, everyone seems to be moving away from him.

I'm pretty sure I was the only person that moved away from him and was the last (besides you since you hadn't come in yet) of the people who claimed to have found anything scummy.
I just looked at what other people are looking at - Jason and Paschendale certainly weren't moving away.
I don't see nhammen's posts as moving away either. (seeing as he hasn't moved his vote)
Wiibox, Johnny & MissMaggot haven't been active enough to have shown any movement either way

How could everyone therefore be moving away from ewo?

I think you might be agreeing with my points a little too much..

Both haven't been posting in a while and I'd need one more vote from someone to lynch ewo. Plus, those votes were old. And, okay, I admit, I was wrong in possibly giving up the ewo lynch. It seems that it still has some potential. I thought it had died. Dunno what I was thinking.

Going with where you both said you found scummy stuff though, had you been in the game earlier I probably would still have been the last to find anything.

I'm not sure what you mean with this?

Also, I just noticed it wasn't too clear that my question from Post 237 was directed to everyone. Sorry for that. I do want answers, though.

[Cheery Dog]

Both haven't been posting in a while and I'd need one more vote from someone to lynch ewo. Plus, those votes were old. And, okay, I admit, I was wrong in possibly giving up the ewo lynch. It seems that it still has some potential. I thought it had died. Dunno what I was thinking.

Jason isn't on the wagon and it appears ewo is his second choice of scum, it's possible I might come back to that wagon, Maggot (HerrRudi now) and Wii currently aren't on any wagon so who knows where their votes would end up. You were very quick at discounting it's worth

Going with where you both said you found scummy stuff though, had you been in the game earlier I probably would still have been the last to find anything.

I'm not sure what you mean with this?

Also, I just noticed it wasn't too clear that my question from Post 237 was directed to everyone. Sorry for that. I do want answers, though.

The first scumtell that I found was in #131, you and Jason in your replace in posts said you found ewo's nhammen case bad. (I personally didn't see it as such, more null, definitely not good enough to sheep)

and yeah I assumed that question was just as HerrRudi because of it's placement in your post. (though that would be weird to only ask that question to someone just replacing in)
My preferred lynch is scum. With my current reads it would be Wiibox.

[HerrRudi]

I've read through most of the posts in this game so far minus some of the play by play walls but my day is a little tight today so I'm going to address the biggest issue in this game right now in my opinion.

Well, there goes another question unanswered... Thanks MM.

I'm not yet convinced of ewo's townieness, but I doubt his lynch will be going through.

You mentioned ewo in your replace in post as your biggest scumread (scum-leaning null), so what has happened that has changed that?
and what makes you doubt the lynch will go through? It's still the leading wagon at this stage.

Well, everyone seems to be moving away from him. Don't get me wrong, I still think he's scum, but at that point I was out of attack angles. And I still am. I'm also not satisfied with the answers he gave me, but I doubt I'll get something better out of him.

Actually, now I think about it... ewo hasn't really felt the pressure of L-1...

VOTE: ewo2

Now, can you please tell me why you didn't say 'not scum' at first? 'Cause it looks like a massive backpedal to me right now.

Welcome HerrRudi!

Also, since deadline is rapidly approaching, who would be your preferred lynch at the moment and why? Mine is ewo, and I think my reasons are pretty clear.

This post reeks scumminess.
1) This is equivalent to saying that "I think Ewo is scum, but I won't get a lynch on him today so I don't want to continue pressuring him" which does not make sense. If you genuinely have a scum read on him, you'd keep the pressure/questions on, even if they are repetitive. I personally think Ewo is town right now (he started off as scummy), and I think a lot of people are getting that vibe now, so you're tuning into that without actually saying he's innocent so you can jump right back at him if it becomes popular again. This is actually the least scummy part of this post though.

2) I'm pretty sure Ewo spent almost a page at L-1 earlier from Cheery Dog's vote so that is a lie. Ewo is under the most pressure. This statement makes no sense. You just want him at L-1 again, but Why? ....

3) Because you want me to hammer him! You give me a nice warm welcome, make it an issue that the deadline is in 4.5 days, and then make a subtle pass that I should sheep you and hammer Ewo. It's as if you don't want me to think hard about it or scumhunt on my own. And when Ewo flips town, you won't even have to try anything D2 as I get crucified for quick hammering in one of my first few posts after replacing into a slot that has been under some pressure from the likes of JasonWazza. Nice gambit to guarantee 2 mislynches, but I'm not playing

VOTE: CityElectric

This guy just slipped really hard here.

[CityElectric]

I've read through most of the posts in this game so far minus some of the play by play walls but my day is a little tight today so I'm going to address the biggest issue in this game right now in my opinion.

Well, there goes another question unanswered... Thanks MM.

I'm not yet convinced of ewo's townieness, but I doubt his lynch will be going through.

You mentioned ewo in your replace in post as your biggest scumread (scum-leaning null), so what has happened that has changed that?
and what makes you doubt the lynch will go through? It's still the leading wagon at this stage.

Well, everyone seems to be moving away from him. Don't get me wrong, I still think he's scum, but at that point I was out of attack angles. And I still am. I'm also not satisfied with the answers he gave me, but I doubt I'll get something better out of him.

Actually, now I think about it... ewo hasn't really felt the pressure of L-1...

VOTE: ewo2

Now, can you please tell me why you didn't say 'not scum' at first? 'Cause it looks like a massive backpedal to me right now.

Welcome HerrRudi!

Also, since deadline is rapidly approaching, who would be your preferred lynch at the moment and why? Mine is ewo, and I think my reasons are pretty clear.

This post reeks scumminess.
1) This is equivalent to saying that "I think Ewo is scum, but I won't get a lynch on him today so I don't want to continue pressuring him" which does not make sense. If you genuinely have a scum read on him, you'd keep the pressure/questions on, even if they are repetitive. I personally think Ewo is town right now (he started off as scummy), and I think a lot of people are getting that vibe now, so you're tuning into that without actually saying he's innocent so you can jump right back at him if it becomes popular again. This is actually the least scummy part of this post though.

You know? I regret ever saying I should drop ewo's lynch, but I felt so little support from the rest of the players in my questioning of him that I felt I was the only one who did see merit in lynching ewo. That, and the fact I was out of angles to attack him, made me say that. No, I'm not satisfied by his answers at all, but I doubt I can get something better out of him. Meaning I still think he's scum.

2) I'm pretty sure Ewo spent almost a page at L-1 earlier from Cheery Dog's vote so that is a lie. Ewo is under the most pressure. This statement makes no sense. You just want him at L-1 again, but Why? ....

Note that there was a mistake in one of the votecounts and ewo flaked at around Dog's vote. That's why I thought ewo didn't see that L-1 vote at all. However, I forgot to check. I apologize for that and retract that statement. However, I do want him at L-1 to ask my question again and try and get a normal answer without backpedaling.

3) Because you want me to hammer him! You give me a nice warm welcome, make it an issue that the deadline is in 4.5 days, and then make a subtle pass that I should sheep you and hammer Ewo. It's as if you don't want me to think hard about it or scumhunt on my own. And when Ewo flips town, you won't even have to try anything D2 as I get crucified for quick hammering in one of my first few posts after replacing into a slot that has been under some pressure from the likes of JasonWazza. Nice gambit to guarantee 2 mislynches, but I'm not playing.

My god, that's about the furthest stretch I've ever read. I always welcome replacements, 'cause I feel it's common courtesy. They offer to replace in, and I applaud them for that. Read Newbie 1259 if you want proof. I asked that question about who you want to lynch right now to everyone, and not just to you, although I admit that wasn't clear from that post. However, I cleared that up myself in Post 240, because after reading Dog's post I realized my question wasn't clear. I asked this question because I wanted to know what were viable wagons for today's lynch and whether ewo's wagon is still on. I don't want a no-lynch day one, because that's basically is giving the scum a free kill. I've never even thought of coaxing you into sheeping me, 'cause I want everyone to think for themselves and reach their own conclusion.

[HerrRudi]

Note that there was a mistake in one of the votecounts and ewo flaked at around Dog's vote. That's why I thought ewo didn't see that L-1 vote at all. However, I forgot to check. I apologize for that and retract that statement. However, I do want him at L-1 to ask my question again and try and get a normal answer without backpedaling.

A slot that hasn't posted is also withholding information from the town, just not publicly withholding said information.

I will continue to answer questions directed at other people if I can see flaws in the question, if it's something I can is logically sound reasons for a question, I'd be likely to ask that question myself, or some variant.

Anyway since I was going to do this last time I posted but decided to wait until replacements came in, and since they've both now caught up the're not going to accidentally quickhammer if they were going to anyway.
VOTE: ewo2

L-1

@ewo: You're at L-1 and I've considered voting you too. What do you have to say about that? (Note: I'm not declaring intent to hammer. Yet.)

I'm going to iso Pasch and nham to see whether MM's theory is viable, and I'm going to iso ewo, so I can try to build a case on him. No guarantees for the ewo-case, though.

Pretty sure he can read and figure that out since it's been made clear 3 times and the mod fixed the count and he posted that whole page. But this isn't even the full point. My point is that you made a soft sell on Ewo, tried to make things urgent (4 days is plenty of time to settle on a lynch), while carefully putting him at L-1. It reeks too much of a set up to me, and making that many mistakes in one post is very suspicious. I don't think I'm making a huge stretch here. I'm just connecting the dots. And I know when I'm making a stretch or when I have a decent argument. This one is the latter

[HerrRudi]

This has a very simple solution though so we're not bickering over small details

@Ewo did you know you were at L-1?

[Wiibox3]

...but my feeling that I've been witholding was that Paschen and Nhammen are quite possibly scumpartners.....

I'd really like to hear your thoughts why. I have reread the two together and I don't see the connection.

A slot that hasn't posted is also withholding information from the town, just not publicly withholding said information.

But site flaking is a null tell compared to deliberately withholding info

I am pretty sure that is not what C-Dog is saying. I don't think he is talking about site flakers, but just those that have opinions on the game and don't reveal them. Unlike MM who mentioned she had opinions on the game and did not tell us what they were.

In post 187, JasonWazza wrote:But site flaking is a null tell compared to deliberately withholding info


I guess that probably is the case, as flakes I've seen have come from both sides.
McLucien18's flake reminds me of the site flake that happened in my previous newbie game from someone who was active on the site at the start of the game but never posted ingame. Therefore City's slot is likely town if it is an accurate observation, however Jambecca's fluff however has made me suspect the slot slightly.

Agreed.

Additionally, while Johnny states that his two biggest scumreads are on myself and nh, it's bizarre to me that he'd list us both as scum while actively acknowledging that he doesn't think we're a scumteam. nh's dispute of Johny's charge is just weird though - he states that "to the rest of the town", at most one of either myself, johnny, or nh is scum. Why is he speaking for the whole town? This seems like a slip to me - if he's got more info than the rest of us, I can see how it would be easy for him to step into the town's shoes.

This comment really bothered me. I don't see how you can assume that he is either scum or has more information than the rest of us by his comment. This really looks like you are trying to twist a comment into something it isn't.

@Jason. please explain the buddy points you give to ewo in post 207, I don't understand what you mean.

Post #73 wiibox3

Calls out Paschndale again but still doesn't change his vote, seriously he has a scum read over his RVS and he votes the RVS

At that point it was just a scum tell. I didn't think it to be enough to take pressure off of Nekoko, since I still wanted to see what she would say. When you are trying to put pressure on someone do you easily flip flop your vote from a slightly scummy comment in the beginning of the game?

Reads:
Wiibox3:

You have next to no content in this game and it is clear that you don't look like contributing and this is extremely scummy, this makes you very scummy in my mind, you seem to just active lurk this entire game.

Scum

Looking at a lot of your reads of my comments, you are either skimming them over and claiming there is no information or you have another reason for wanting to lynch me today. It maybe true that I added some "fluff" at the beginning of the day, but that was because I misunderstood the purpose of the themed game. This has been gone over already in this game, and I dropped it. It is interesting when I say that I am catching up and will reply later you call that "fluff", but when others do you say nothing.

Honestly it seems to me that you are stalling. You have had several days to catch up and form some opinions or questions for us. You are getting off to a bad start and making yourself look like scum.

Is it just that they look like scum or did you believe they actually were scum?

So far it looks like you haven't actually found someone who believe to be scum and all your votes thus far have been on the lurkers.

I honesty thought he was scum because of how he was acting. In my last game here this is how one of the scum members was acting and this was a tell for me. This is why I thought jambecca was scum. So far the scum players I have seen provide a lot of content or barely comment at all.

Also so far jambecca and ewo are the only people I have truly suspected as scum, so your statement is correct. I haven't voted ewo because I didn't want to end the day early.

Meaning Wii is next on the list for a good round of question asking. Lemme start with one. Wii, what have you got to say about the current suspicion on you?

Most of my post answers this, but to further elaborate. I didn't realize what I was doing was characterized as "active lurking". I actually had never heard that term before. Anyway, I usually don't say much when someone else has asked the same question I was thinking or made a comment that I felt the same about. But maybe I need to change my tactic on the front.

Way much to read and way too little time. Continued lack of a laptop makes playing optimally nearly impossible as well.

Mod: I would like to be replaced.

Well that's dissapointing, I was hoping to hear her expanded thoughts.

@HerrRudi - It looked like City slipped to me as well, but it didn't look like a scum slip to me, but it might have been. Also what are your reads on the other players?

My biggest read is on ewo right now.. But there is still plenty of time for development.

[Cheery Dog]

A slot that hasn't posted is also withholding information from the town, just not publicly withholding said information.

But site flaking is a null tell compared to deliberately withholding info

I am pretty sure that is not what C-Dog is saying. I don't think he is talking about site flakers, but just those that have opinions on the game and don't reveal them. Unlike MM who mentioned she had opinions on the game and did not tell us what they were.

The start was about Mcluien's lurking/site flake. There was a point that I believe publicly withholding information is in the same stream as privately withholding information. While doing it publicly is definitely anti-town, I don't see it as an alignment tell.

So far it looks like you haven't actually found someone who believe to be scum and all your votes thus far have been on the lurkers.

Also so far jambecca and ewo are the only people I have truly suspected as scum, so your statement is correct. I haven't voted ewo because I didn't want to end the day early.

How is my statement correct if you have found people you believe to be scum? From what you say there only the latter half of it is correct, so why are you calling the whole statement correct?
Why haven't you announced that you had considered ewo to be scum? This is the first you've mentioned him to be on your scumdar.

@HerrRudi - It looked like City slipped to me as well, but it didn't look like a scum slip to me, but it might have been. Also what are your reads on the other players?

What type of slip do you think it was then?

I do agree that post was bad though. City appears to be following along with the general view of the town. This is either a lost townie or scum trying to fit in. I'm currently leaning lost townie, but we shall see, just noticed something in his ISO I need to question though.

.
Johnny: not always the best arguments, but he asks good questions. Town.

What questions has he actually asked which you are considering good? The only questions I find he has asked are in his replace in post, is that the only place you have this read from?

[CityElectric]

I'm sorry, but I doubt posting right now would be productive for anyone and only dig myself deeper in this hole I've dug myself in. I'll get to any questions and reasoning tomorrow after I've slept and thought everything over properly.

If you have any questions you want me to respond to, be sure to ask. Actually, I encourage you to do so. I promise I'll answer them.

[Paschendale]

Also so far jambecca and ewo are the only people I have truly suspected as scum, so your statement is correct. I haven't voted ewo because I didn't want to end the day early.

How is my statement correct if you have found people you believe to be scum? From what you say there only the latter half of it is correct, so why are you calling the whole statement correct?
Why haven't you announced that you had considered ewo to be scum? This is the first you've mentioned him to be on your scumdar.

Wiibox, if you think Ewo is scum and that he should be lynched, you should announce the intent to hammer. Maybe even ask for a claim. Don't dawdle around. Get the intention out in the open so we can discuss it.