Newbie 1,276 (Game over!)

[nhammen]

What happened to this logic? You're voting Pasch, instead of ewo, who, by this logic is more likely to be scum than Pasch.

Repeating ewo's comment. Although scum tend to parrot, this is actually an example of a case when scum would usually not do so. Assume City scum and Pasch town for the moment. Assuming ewo scum, City would not comment on this, because that would be encouraging Dog to vote his partner. Assuming ewo town, City would not comment on this because scum-City likes seeing the most protown player to be suspicious of a player that had previously been seen as town. Thus, if City is scum, his partner must be either Pasch, and he is trying to drive the vote away form his partner, or Dog (I find this highly unlikely), and he is reminding his partner that there is an inconsistency. All told, I find this to be a town read on City.

I would have put money on someone commenting on this... What does it mean that nobody has? If I was right about the City/Pasch possiblity, Pasch would have commented. Therefore, either Pasch/City is less likely, and City is even more town, or City is scum with someone else.

Will be back later tonight with a solid post but I have to say something real quick - it might sound scummy coming from me (i.e. I can see you thinking I'm pretending not to have known about the setup) but I have already demonstrated at least twice that I know nothing about scum roles in this game, so if that's not a towntell I don't know what is. They were genuine mistakes.

One of those mistakes came after we had discussed mistakes possibly being a towntell. We have no way to know if it was faked or not.

Though I have to wonder why a mistake about the rules is a null tell for Ewo, but apparently an all-encompassing scumslip for me. What makes Ewo so special to you, CD?

It's the way the response is given which make it flip whatever way, also that you're an SE player and I am therefore expecting better of you.

To be fair, he has only played 4 or 5 games, so he is barely an SE.

--Jason's case on me is wrong, but he does seem sincere about it. I feel like this is a town tell so I lean town on him.

I'm not seeing this sincerity. Can you show where you see it?

[JasonWazza]

So by POE my pool I'll be working from is Nhammen (I just have a null tell here and need to decide an opinion), City, Ewo for who get's my vote next

OK then i see what your doing it was PoE rather then anything else, that makes it seem less scummy tbh.

UNVOTE:HerrRudi

Well, for a second time in a row, I have taken a few days between posts. This is not good behavior from your IC. And I can already say, with how this week is going, it will happen one more time, because I will not have a chance to post again for a day and a half at least. But after that, I should be back to regularly scheduled programming.


Anyways, to keep things organized, this post will be a rebuttal against Jason's posts, which mostly cover massclaiming. I will post another post immediately following this one, which will cover other topics.

I can understand that but a massclaim in this setup holds a rather major problem, unless there is only one PR then there is a possibility of a fake claim, not to mention the order has to be right to avoid mafia from knowing all the other PR's before they claim.

That's what popcorning is for.

Now your assuming we popcorn in the right order.

Just saying but more often then not i have seen mass-claims end terribly, especially so when they are done before LYLO.

I am Starting to doubt my town read on him, his play has been a bit more shakey today, he has slipped down to a leaning town for me for now, and i am still doubting that read a little.

But this last bit i wanna just hit you for, as an IC you know the most widely viewed townread could in fact be scum (i assume from experience) and this is a bit too defensive of cherry dog.

A) changing your reads is entirely valid. But the way you have done it seems to me like you are looking for excuses to not see him as town.
B) scum tend to be nervous about people that the entire town has agreed are aligned with them, because that means that the scum have to get rid of this person.
C) the most widely viewed townread is town more often than not. We are actually kinda good at reading town. Yes it is possible that I am wrong. It always is possible.

So you think his play in day 2 hasn't wavered even a little bit?

I think it's good the entire town think someones town, assuming they are town, but never unless we have a full confirm that is undeniable, will i not suspect someone, is this what you are trying to make me do nhammen?

Agreed but your assuming way to much here.
a) your assuming a mis-lynch
b) your assuming the PR's will get hit and not have a doctor on them

Both fairly likely

a) it's a noob game i would rank mis-lynch as likely but a PR being hit i don't think is as likely as you seem to make it.
b) your still assuming way too much, likely or not, you can't assume anything.

There is no complete choice over what they can pick no matter when they claim.
We already have PR's so they know they can't do every claim.

They can on the last day. And that is my point. We could have a really scummy player be some role, and then the towniest looking scum counterclaims that person, and ta-da: instant scum win.

so wait go back a bit, popcorning will be in the right order today but not tomorrow

But again i think we would have to analyze the claims, that isn't an instant scum win.

6 VTs, 1 doc, 1 JK = also nothing today (or ever), but they could chain defend each other for what it's worth.

No they can't JK would roleblock the docs protect.

And yeah reading is normally good.

Actually, JK-Doc is the most pro-town setup of any of the possibilities. The Doc protects the JK, and the JK chooses between targeting the Doc or targeting a mafia suspect (with more weight towards targeting a mafia suspect). If the mafia target either power role, they are risking no kill, but they have to try for the Doc or the PRs own the game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21878
The Doc-JK setup has only been won by scum less than 1/3 of the time as of last count, and I know of multiple town wins since then.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22857
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=23025

However, this kind of thing turns into a logic puzzle. We can work this out if we turn out to be in this setup.

Agreed that this is right, but it's just a big ball of WIFOMic crap honestly, not useful.

But, you seem to be getting VERY nervous about the massclaiming idea. And I am kinda thinking it might be because you are scum.

I'm not nervous about massclaiming, my claim will be the same no matter when we claim, i just believe from my experience it is best not to claim until LYLO.

I'm sorry but i can't get away without the feeling that you are highly insinuating that i am scum, and it makes me feel more un-easy cause you are insinuating all this, yet your still not voting anyone, it makes me feel like your trying to push a mis-lynch without trying to hard that it is obvious.

VOTE:nhammen

nhammen i will ask this of you, what is your read list as of this post right now.

[Cheery Dog]

So by POE my pool I'll be working from is Nhammen (I just have a null tell here and need to decide an opinion), City, Ewo for who get's my vote next

OK then i see what your doing it was PoE rather then anything else, that makes it seem less scummy tbh.

UNVOTE:HerrRudi

I don't see how that fixes the reason you voted him

I'm not nervous about massclaiming, my claim will be the same no matter when we claim, i just believe from my experience it is best not to claim until LYLO.

Why is LYLO the best time? I get that it probably should happen before the final person is lynched, but I can see it being more useful before we get to LYLO.
Leaving it to LYLO gives the scum more chance of successfully fakeclaiming something.

[JasonWazza]

So by POE my pool I'll be working from is Nhammen (I just have a null tell here and need to decide an opinion), City, Ewo for who get's my vote next

OK then i see what your doing it was PoE rather then anything else, that makes it seem less scummy tbh.

UNVOTE:HerrRudi

I don't see how that fixes the reason you voted him

I thought his only reason for suspecting ewo was that he had a leaning town read on him in a scummy way, PoE isn't that scummy of a technique.

I'm not nervous about massclaiming, my claim will be the same no matter when we claim,

i just believe from my experience

it is best not to claim until LYLO.

Why is LYLO the best time? I get that it probably should happen before the final person is lynched, but I can see it being more useful before we get to LYLO.
Leaving it to LYLO gives the scum more chance of successfully fakeclaiming something.

re-read the bolded part.

And i don't think it gives scum any extra chance then it gives town, i think it is about the same no matter when we do it, except in larger games, the main problem is the size of the game restricts the use of mass claiming for town benefit.

[Cheery Dog]

As to why it would be bad on LYLO, I refer to nhammen's post.

They can on the last day. And that is my point. We could have a really scummy player be some role, and then the towniest looking scum counterclaims that person, and ta-da: instant scum win.

Though MYLO should be okay, which is what tomorrow is if we mislynch today and scum get a nightkill in tonight.

[JasonWazza]

There is no complete choice over what they can pick no matter when they claim.
We already have PR's so they know they can't do every claim.

They can on the last day. And that is my point. We could have a really scummy player be some role, and then the towniest looking scum counterclaims that person, and ta-da: instant scum win.

so wait go back a bit, popcorning will be in the right order today but not tomorrow

But again i think we would have to analyze the claims, that isn't an instant scum win.

It's all in how we analyze the claims not the claims themselves, you can look like townie number 1 but a bad claim could get you lynched.

That is the idea of it.

You want dead PR's sooner rather then later then by all means mass-claim, it isn't as helpful for us right now over

actual scumhunting

which you guys aren't doing at this point in time.

[ewo2]

it isn't as helpful for us right now over actual scumhunting which you guys aren't doing at this point in time.

This is a great point. Ya'll are still sitting here bickering over whether or not we should massclaim. There's only one way to get past this discussion that I know of and that's to get everyone to say whether they want a massclaim or not and tally them up. I'll start.

I DON'T want a massclaim.

@Cheery - I'm glad you finally moved your vote to where it makes sense to be given your 'logic' but it looks way more like a move to appease the town to appear consistent than it does a move you really genuinely mean. I mean look at what you just said:

I have seen other players fail to notice the difference between mafia roleblocker and rolecop in some of the other newbies games I've had quick browses through, however this is the first time I've seen someone not know that there was pregame chat in them. Even IC's have said the wrong term.

How is this something you'd count as a scumtell against me?

@City - what are your reads - you've been active lurking lately. Your only recent comment is to pop in and express suspicions of a player who is under scrutiny - you add nothing to the conversation.

I want to reread city and hopefully have that up tomorrow.

@nh - in your post at the top of this page, could you reexplain the post that you were concerned that no one responded to? It looked like word salad to me and I didn't respond because I couldn't make good sense of it.

[ewo2]

EBWOP: For clarity, I am talking about a massclaim TODAY, not a massclaim in the future.

[JasonWazza]

it isn't as helpful for us right now over actual scumhunting which you guys aren't doing at this point in time.

This is a great point. Ya'll are still sitting here bickering over whether or not we should massclaim. There's only one way to get past this discussion that I know of and that's to get everyone to say whether they want a massclaim or not and tally them up. I'll start.

I DON'T want a massclaim.

a) i am pretty sure i said that not johnny, cause it looks identical to what i said.
b) no massclaim today do it tomorrow.

[CityElectric]

I'm not sure about my reads. Most of the posts have been discussing a mass-claim something which I don't have an opinion about, nor know enough about to make any meaningful comments. Personally, I'm fine either way, as long as the order of mass-claiming is decided by an experienced player most of us trust and everyone agrees to stick to that order.

I'm having a lot of trouble finding scum here. Ewo seems the scummiest player in my eyes, but that's nothing more than a slight gut-read based on old stuff and Post 385. As for anyone else... I dunno. It would require some iso and rereading day 2 (as iPod reading isn't the best way to get your information in...)

Also, a general housekeeping announcement:

Mod: I'll be V/LA the 22nd and most of the 23rd.

[JasonWazza]

Popcorn i do believe is the general way to do a mass-claim it consists of everyone voting (not proper votes we aren't lynching) who they want to claim first, then that person picks the next claimer and so on and so forth.

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery - I'm glad you finally moved your vote to where it makes sense to be given your 'logic' but it looks way more like a move to appease the town to appear consistent than it does a move you really genuinely mean. I mean look at what you just said:

I have seen other players fail to notice the difference between mafia roleblocker and rolecop in some of the other newbies games I've had quick browses through, however this is the first time I've seen someone not know that there was pregame chat in them. Even IC's have said the wrong term.

How is this something you'd count as a scumtell against me?

It's not? I already stated it was null.

[Cheery Dog]

My reasons for thinking you are scum are based off #131 (as I wasn't convinced otherwise after my questioning day 1),
my logic as to why you are probably scum based off having two wagons at deadline and also the name forgetting.

As for the massclaim, I think it would be better to happen tomorrow than today, though I'd be fine with either happening.

[StrangerCoug]

Poor me not getting picked to come on down

VOTE COUNT

ewo2 (3): Paschendale, JohnnyFarrar, Cheery Dog
nhammen (2): ewo2, JasonWazza
Not voting (3): CityElectric, HerrRudi, nhammen

With

8

players alive, it takes

5

players to lynch.

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2012-10-03 20:31:48).

Mod: I'll be V/LA the 22nd and most of the 23rd.

Noted.

[HerrRudi]

@Nhammen: Mostly a gut read coming from how he has been attacking my slot for a while. It's something I feel would be tough to fake since committing to one player takes a convincement (new word haha) that I see as town having way more often than scum. Of course him hopping off of my wagon for a reason that doesn't clear me according to his case on me to vote you after he called you scum was less than subtle. (more on that later)

@Johnny: My bad forgetting you! Gut town lean but I haven't really scrutinized your posts and play today and late D1 to be sure of that.

@Jason: You're reason for unvoting me does not clear your case against me. Ewo is in the POE right now and was yesterday because my town lean on him was largely due to a City scumtell. It was a conditional read. Ewo being scum given City being scum was highly unlikely, so Ewo benefited from my scum read on City. I said it moved to null and I had to look more since i wanted to see his posts without me looking at them through the City scum-lens. Him being in POE today has nothing to do with anything you accused me of. What happened to me being an opportunist? Nhammen just soft accused you of being scum and you move your vote to him. OMGUS? I don't quite trust Nhammen either and need to get a read on him but I don't like your actions in this case.

[JasonWazza]

True, but the thing is you haven't been focusing on city, my thought is that you would have at least pushed him even slightly today as scum

--My read on City kind of wavered at the end of D1 with Wiibox's flip (I was pretty convinced I had a team pegged too as I said earlier, so order didn't matter then so I was fine hopping between the two), so I need to reassess that. Still plausible in my gut I just have to see if I can back that up.

This just made me think that your not as scummy, you didn't use the same opportunism in this, and your honestly scum hunting (imo).

That left me with the PoE part of my case against you (which still seemed off at the time and better then i had) and you pretty much cleared that up with the PoE argument.

As for voting nhammen, it isn't that he is pushing a lynch on me, it's that it feels like he is trying to push it but as much as possible keep himself from jumping on the wagon.

[Cheery Dog]

Inactivity boom!

All of you stop lurking (or at least give me something I can comment on, because otherwise I'm just going to have to grab stuff at random and pull it out of context and then feed it to my cat)

I'd like to see votes from Herr, City and nhammen sometime today though, there's definitely enough content for you to be voting someone over a week into Day 2.

[JohnnyFarrar]

This game is hard...

I'm almost positive that the British bulldog is town, and I think ewo is scum. Why aren't people voting ewo now?

[Paschendale]

City, Rudi, Nhammen, don't leave us hanging!

[CityElectric]

I'm here! sorry for my general lurkyness the previous days, I promise to better my life (and that's a direct translation of a Dutch proverb of which I don't know the English equivalent...//end of fluff)

This game is hard...

I'm almost positive that the British bulldog is town, and I think ewo is scum.

Agreed. I think Nhammen is town too.

Upon re-reading D2, my gut read on ewo is getting stronger again. He seems intent on getting Nhammen lynched, which is a lost case. But why would you want to get the IC lynched? Simple, because they're a pain in the behind for scum. (Or there is a very direct indication they're scum, but that's not the case for me here) His attack on Dog was terrible as well. So, he's basically trying to get the towniest player and the IC lynched, both of which would be very advantageous lynches for scum (NK the other one, and you've gotten rid of two potentially troublesome players in one day). Also, I think we'd gain the most information from a ewo-lynch, but it's too early in the day to make that reason count yet.

VOTE: ewo2

Ewo is now at L-1.

(If I still know how to count, of course.)

Now, as for reads. I've noticed that I'm terrible at those, simply because I'm really easily led by other players. Especially when it comes to things I don't have a really strong opinion about. Of course, if you want some, I could give a shot at them, but know that I don't feel quite comfortable doing it.

Popcorn i do believe is the general way to do a mass-claim it consists of everyone voting (not proper votes we aren't lynching) who they want to claim first, then that person picks the next claimer and so on and so forth.

Whoops, you're right. Someone needs to get their terminology down. (I've read a game where a player made a list of the order they wanted a mass-claim in, so that's why I got confused...)

[Paschendale]

Speaking, in fact, of the massclaim idea, since we are fairly close to a lynch. If someone states an intent to hammer, do we want to entertain the idea of a massclaim?

[StrangerCoug]

ewo2 and nhammen are in danger of being prodded, due for one in (expired on 2012-09-22 06:03:40) and in (expired on 2012-09-21 23:59:25) respectively.

[ewo2]

i'm here. i've claimed. i don't have much more to say at the moment.

[nhammen]

OK, my week of hell is over! Driving home, then dinner, then 3 hours to reply, iso, and post.

[Cheery Dog]

Speaking, in fact, of the massclaim idea, since we are fairly close to a lynch. If someone states an intent to hammer, do we want to entertain the idea of a massclaim?

ewo claimed yesterday anyway, so the current closeness to the lynch won't reveal any information we don't already know.