Ladies Night 2: No Cover -- (Game Over)

[camn]

vote : Sucrose

[springlullaby]

Hi guys, going to read now

[springlullaby]

Vote Brandi

Discussion about RVS is distracting, what's the point?
It is also fake I think - please point out to me 3 games in which you, Brandi, have found "connections and such much later on after a few flips have happened" from RVS posts.

[springlullaby]

How come ek is not playing

[RedCoyote]

How come ek is not playing

I know, right? She said she was too busy despite my pleas. That's okay though! I truly am happy with the playerlist anyways. <3

---

Vote Count 1 - 3

• PiggyGal15

  (3) (

  PiggyGal15

  - DrippingGoofball -

  Amrun

  - Brandi - Seastormjt)

  
  Seastormjt

  (3) (MathGirl277 - Bunnylover - Huntress)
  
  
  DrippingGoofball
  (2) (Eidolon - Sucrose)
  
  
  Sucrose
  (2) (Amrun - camn)
  
  
  RachMarie
  (1) (Telo)
  
  
  Amrun
  (1) (CityElectric)
  
  
  flinter
  (1) (Tammy)
  
  
  springlullaby
  (1) (Fujiko)
  
  
  Brandi
  (1) (springlullaby)
  
  
  MathGirl277
  (0) (

  Seastormjt

  )
  
  
  Eidolon
  (0) (

  camn

  )
  
  
  Not Voting
  (3) (RachMarie -

  springlullaby

  - flinter -

  Huntress

  - PiggyGal15)

With eighteen alive, it takes ten to lynch.
Current Deadline:

(expired on 2012-10-11 12:10:00)

[Sucrose]

About the RVS thing... Not really? Usually you want to get out of RVS as quickly as possible, I find. I mean, I've found a few minor tells that occur only in RVS, but if RVS ends naturally then it's nice that it's ended, and that was pretty natural to me.

That said.

Vote: Piggy

I do agree with the accusations, and I really dislike that she hasn't actually done anything about them, and that she hasn't moved her vote to try to actually hunt :/

Hmm.

Unvote, Vote: Seastorm

"Really dislikes" that Piggy hasn't done anything to defend herself against accusations, or scumhunt, within the space of a page and a few hours. I'm not sure what Seastorm expects as a defense for a "lol guys I'm often scummy" opening post, or how much scumhunting she would expect out of Piggy at this point when the only non-RVS conversation has been about her own two posts. Not to mention Piggy could, you know, just not have been online. If you're "really disappointed" by these actions at that point it smells to me of scum opportunism more than actual town emotion.

[Sucrose]

Agh, last sentence should read "really dislike," don't mean to misquote.

[Brandi]

Vote Brandi

Discussion about RVS is distracting, what's the point?
It is also fake I think - please point out to me 3 games in which you, Brandi, have found "connections and such much later on after a few flips have happened" from RVS posts.

Ah. You do not have an RVS vote to place, so you have to find something useful to say. This post is very telling.

I could not link you to 3 completed games on this site, especially not any where I employed such a theory. Not that I would need to- but that's a nice straw man you've got there.
I've read a few of mafia discussion threads on RVS that support this theory, with statistics- as well as discussed the topic with scummers and heard it discussed during scum meets.

I find it interesting that you would ask me to link to games to further a debate about something you seem to find distracting, when it obviously does not matter whether I'm right or not. (Hint: I am)

[Brandi]

Looking back, Surcose makes a great point.

unvote

vote: seastorm

In the same post Sea acknowledges that RVS has just ended, but proceeds to for a player who has gained mild traction for the reasoning that they have "not tried to scum hunt".

[Brandi]

EBWOP: proceeds to vote*

[MathGirl277]

Wherein MathGirl tries to get used to MafiaScum

by all counts, I'm technically a newb ._.

Spoiler: Quotes

About the RVS thing... Not really? Usually you want to get out of RVS as quickly as possible, I find. I mean, I've found a few minor tells that occur only in RVS, but if RVS ends naturally then it's nice that it's ended, and that was pretty natural to me.

That said.

Vote: Piggy

I do agree with the accusations, and I really dislike that she hasn't actually done anything about them, and that she hasn't moved her vote to try to actually hunt :/

Hmm.

Unvote, Vote: Seastorm

"Really dislikes" that Piggy hasn't done anything to defend herself against accusations, or scumhunt, within the space of a page and a few hours. I'm not sure what Seastorm expects as a defense for a "lol guys I'm often scummy" opening post, or how much scumhunting she would expect out of Piggy at this point when the only non-RVS conversation has been about her own two posts. Not to mention Piggy could, you know, just not have been online. If you're "really disappointed" by these actions at that point it smells to me of scum opportunism more than actual town emotion.

I'm not sure about sea, but I know I'm used to shorter deadlines and players being online a lot more often than this. Not being online is rare over on the part of the net that we learned mafia, so I can see how that could come off as hyper-aggressive. Like it's weird to think that being offline for 3-4 days isn't 'lurking'. I'm probably going to have to turn down my own aggression too, but I'll try.

---

Soooo reads time. It's never too early for reads. It's just that these reads will change over the course of a game. Especially the first readspost. I fully expect every single one of my reads to be completely wrong. Even if the

are

mostly null.

Spoiler: Reads in no particular order

First thing that's popped out from these four pages is piggygal15. I really want her to come online and answer the questions posed at her. Can we ignore her intro post though? It's pretty obviously a joke, but she hasn't been responding well to any pressure after that.

DrippingGoofBall's pressure on piggy seemed kind of out of the blue and then spiralled into something big. I'm of the opinion that a prolonged RVS can be counterproductive, and DGB ended it cleanly, but accusing Piggy really wasn't much of a risk. Null read.

I want to say Brandi is overwhelming town, but she speaks with enough experience that I'd expect her to be good at hiding herself if she were scum. I'll have to reserve judgement on her alignment until a few people have flipped, but I see her as someone who's leading the town. This could be a good or bad thing, and I can't tell yet. Also also also, I'd be really intrigued to see those statistics about RVS. In my experience, scum is caught more often when people slip up during discussion and not any RVS slipups.

Amrun's taking things too seriously as far as I can tell, but that's not a scumtell or a towntell, that's more of a stresstell. I guess you

are

trying to hunt, so that puts you higher up in my townlist. However, that sucrosevote came out of nowhere as far as I could tell. And then camn jumped on the (tiny little) wagon. And Sucrose herself strikes me as super duper town because she's actively been trying to hunt and she's been making good points.

I've already mentioned my thoughts on seastormjt. I've got a nullread on her as of yet. She's just busy. Could be scumsea, could be townsea. It's too early for me to tell.

Everyone I didn't mention I just don't have time to finish composing a readspost on. These gals just stuck out the most to me. I'll get to the rest of the crew later. Possibly tonight or tomorrow night?

Also Brandi, can I please please please have those RVS statistics? I'd love to see the data.

[Brandi]

I'll have to search through the discussion threads a bit, as I never bookmarked them. Give me a few.

[Seastormjt]

#80 and #82: Answered.

[Brandi]

Answer noted.
Answer insufficient.

[Brandi]

@Mathgirl:
I cannot find the original thread I read a long time ago, the search function has been no help. I think it was potentially made by or had part in by Hoopla. She has various threads that show win % of certain set ups and such. I'll keep looking later but this discussion gets to the core of a lot of my beliefs.
I'm not aware if it is related to the site crash or not. I will say that there wasn't a very large sample size as I think it was only mafiascum based and was a year or so ago.


http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22346
Particularly Mastin's post here details things quite nicely:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4114509

also I'm honored you would say I sound experienced. However, my join date may be deceptive, but I've only just started up playing mafia again. (All of my games are ongoing)
The last time I played before then was at scum meets, and during the year of my join date or sporadically on marathon days.
I have been quite the observer over the years though, and a lot of my opinions are learned from watching my boyfriend and friends play.

[springlullaby]

Ah. You do not have an RVS vote to place, so you have to find something useful to say. This post is very telling.

I'm trying to understand what you are saying be I'm drawing blank. Do you think that what I said was 'useful'?

I could not link you to 3 completed games on this site, especially not any where I employed such a theory. Not that I would need to- but that's a nice straw man you've got there.
I've read a few of mafia discussion threads on RVS that support this theory, with statistics- as well as discussed the topic with scummers and heard it discussed during scum meets.

Can you explain why you are saying that I'm straw manning you?
Oh so, you posted fluff posts talking about a theory point with great authority whereas you haven't experienced it first hand. Why?
Although it is true most players do think that RVS is not random, it strikes me as empty and fake to be preaching theory that doesn't apply to you.
Especially since in the context of Sucrose's vote - which I personally read as half joke.

It is possible that you just had nothing to say but posted anyway to get the game started as town though.

I find it interesting that you would ask me to link to games to further a debate about something you seem to find distracting, when it obviously does not matter whether I'm right or not. (Hint: I am)

Right about what? Are you really under the mis-impression that I asked you to link games in order to read them or to debate theory?

[Telo]

I hate changing my vote once I've placed it on someone but I also can't justify leaving it on Rach since she hasn't said or done anything.
Ok, I went to the member list to see if she'd been on and the members go from Raamawen to radwulf.
Did RachMarie delete?

[Telo]

Nevermind. The list wasn't sorted in alphabetical order. Disgregard previous post.

[Eidolon]

Hey everyone, I'll be posting more in a couple hours. Just thought i'd say from a very quick skim, i like the seastorm votes.

[DrippingGoofball]

Sucrose votes are crap. Sucrose should be voting Piggy, but Sucrose is town.

Brandi is awesome and thank god she's not scum.

Seastorm's post is too dingaling to be a mastermind scum post.

MathGirls is clean.

Camn is sketch. Well more than sketch. Maybe even scum.

[Brandi]

Spring, there was a direct question regarding RVS and it ending early as well as it's merits.
A player landed a vote becaues of such.
I was giving reasoning as to why it was a legitimate and understandable stance, because I had that opinion as well.
Now I did not say that it made DGB scum, though- just that the reasoning could make sense.

I think it's important for everyone to realize how useful RVS is when coming back to re-read, it can help the town late game when trying to determine scum from a pool of less players.
Just because I have not actively looked for such connection in the past does not mean I do not believe in the theory.
It is something that I learned, and have been trying to apply in my comeback to playing this game.
But I could not link you to anything because all of the games I am playing are ongoing.

My older games when I joined the site I did not take such things into account because I was new and ignorant of how to properly play the game.
But I have taken a recent interest in mafia theory and felt the need to express my opinions on such because it did indeed feel relevant.
I even stated that I did not feel like discussing it further past a point- because I felt that is when it outlived it's relevancy. (See: My back and forth with Amrun)

You jumping on to me and claiming you don't believe my opinions and am therefore scum feels very reachy- and the fact that you suggest that I need to have expressed this in the past is a fallacy.

[Amrun]

I read all of those threads in question and none of them actually support what you're saying. But I believe that you're being sincere because your position makes sense for someone who has read the theory but not practiced it.

Reading RVS upon re-read is useful to see how people GET OUT of RVS. Random votes in and of themselves are rarely, if ever, useful. What IS telling is who chooses to try and get out of it, and especially how, and who chooses to prolong it, and how. Some people view the act of prolonging RVS a scumtell. For me personally, it's all in the "how."

[CityElectric]

vote : Sucrose

Is it just me, or throws this vote flags up for someone else as well? It's a vote without a reason, which just so happens to be the same as Amrun's vote. (I think what she's doing could be called sheeping, but I'm still working on my mafia terminology...)

PG's self-vote doesn't sit right with me either and she isn't responding well to the pressure on her. People trying to "joke" their way out of things just makes me want to lynch them, for some reason. Post 55 is a prime example of this.

I don't want to leave my vote on Amrun, because she simply isn't the scummiest player to me right now. So, I'm going to:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: camn, for that Sucrose vote.

[Brandi]

Not liking CityElectric's so far.

I read all of those threads in question and none of them actually support what you're saying. But I believe that you're being sincere because your position makes sense for someone who has read the theory but not practiced it.

Reading RVS upon re-read is useful to see how people GET OUT of RVS. Random votes in and of themselves are rarely, if ever, useful. What IS telling is who chooses to try and get out of it, and especially how, and who chooses to prolong it, and how. Some people view the act of prolonging RVS a scumtell. For me personally, it's all in the "how."

I never said that random voting in of itself was useful. (Though it is not truly random unless you are using the dice tags.)I said the stage was.
I was saying that the longevity of RVS is good because that generally means all players get a chance to chime in, which is useful for developing reads.
Cutting that off early cuts other players off from having to be apart of that- meaning you will never get those reads/tells off of certain players.
It could hypothetically be cut off early to prevent your scum-buddies from having to make an RVS post if you don't trust them to not do something stupid.
The thread that I linked to you even make a post agreeing with my opinions.

[Brandi]

EBWOP: CityElectric's play*